The Politics Thread

[jon b]

And people wondered why so many over here couldn't wait to get the hell out of the EU!! The stories emerging of their despicable authoritarian behaviour sound like something straight out of Nazi Germany.

Godwin's law.

 

[jon b]

Head of the Scottish Police Force, Chief Meikleson is on the ball:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348942176315711488

Just to show how close to reality Chief Miekelson's verbal blundering really is, an EU spokesman came out with a classic example today.

In expressing regret for the spectacularly cack handed, panicky, blundering by the EU Commission on Friday over attempts to prevent EU produced Covid vaccines entering the UK through a Northern Ireland " back door", the spokesman asked for people to understand that mistakes happened as "only the pope is infallible."

Not an expression to be carelessly dropped into a discussion about issues involving Eire and Northern Ireland.

 

[Unicorn]

Just to show how close to reality Chief Miekelson's verbal blundering really is, an EU spokesman came out with a classic example today.

In expressing regret for the spectacularly cack handed, panicky, blundering by the EU Commission on Friday over attempts to prevent EU produced Covid vaccines entering the UK through a Northern Ireland " back door", the spokesman asked for people to understand that mistakes happened as "only the pope is infallible."

Not an expression to be carelessly dropped into a discussion about issues involving Eire and Northern Ireland.

What a clown.

 

[The Don]

I've been reading, from various sources, this quote that "the Pope is infallible". Like most quotes taken out of context (remember Norman Tebbit's so-called "Get on Your bike" phrase which he never said) this phrase is incomplete.
My understanding is that the Pope was' infallible' on matters of Catholic Doctrine although this was disputed some years ago.

 

[Sale Holmfield]

I've been reading, from various sources, this quote that "the Pope is infallible". Like most quotes taken out of context (remember Norman Tebbit's so-called "Get on Your bike" phrase which he never said) this phrase is incomplete.
My understanding is that the Pope was' infallible' on matters of Catholic Doctrine although this was disputed some years ago.

By coincidence, I am currently rereading John Julius Norwich history of "The Popes" (which is a popular history, not a work of theology) and, in terms of church history, it was introduced relatively recently in 1870. You are right that it is limited to doctrinal matters, but relates to the Pope believing himself to be "Pastor and Doctor of all Christians," not just Roman Catholics.

It is one of those unfortunate attempts at a joke, which was particularly unfortunate in the context of the Northern Ireland/Republic border. "That's an ecumenical matter" would have been a much better line to take.

 

[007Dale]

Anyone following this Salmond farce in Scotland? Have to be honest, I can’t really understand what’s going on. As far as I can tell, it’s just a bit of internal SNP party bickering - but as it was plastered over all the news channels yesterday, I guess there’s more to it.

 

[jon b]

Looks like Salmond's ego and libido may save the Union.

For now at least.

Seems he wants Independence but not if Sturgeon is leader.

Perhaps he's deluded enough to think he can stage a second coming as SNP Saviour.

The pro Union parties are piling in pretending that there's a scandal involving Scottish Government abuse of power. Personally, I think it boils down to Salmond trying to get revenge for his colleagues backing off from him when criminal charges were laid.

He sees himself as the victim in all this, not the nine women that the prosecutors alleged had been assaulted.

 

[prorege]

He sees himself as the victim in all this, not the nine women that the prosecutors alleged had been assaulted.

You are spot on in saying that Salmond sees himself as the victim. He was a very fortunate man not to be convicted. His acquittal was very much on the grounds of lack of corroboration. He did not deny that any of the incidents took place - just claiming that they were consensual. I think there were major failings in the prosecution who could have made more of the Moorov Doctrine.

Rather than keeping his head down and living life quietly, Salmond's ego has meant that he is going after revenge on those who he thinks wronged him. I have little doubt that in private the Scottish Government, SNP hierarchy and Scottish civil service would have preferred him to have been convicted. The debate now is whether or not there is concrete evidence to suggest that they colluded to enhance the case against him.

Sturgeon's evidence to Committee next week will be interesting. In the broader view of this whole affair the vast majority of people will support her viewpoint even if they believe she is being economical with the truth. Despite his acquittal Salmond is a reviled figure other than amongst uber-nationalists, conspiracy-theorists, pandemic-deniers and the like.

The case has also re-opened splits within the SNP. It has always been a broad church. It's origins were in intellectual ethno-nationalism. It grew by attracting others committed to independence at all costs. However, to reach the stage where it could win the SP elections and dominate Scottish representation at Westminster it had to appeal to a broader support base. The "old style" nationalists - the fundamentalists - see Salmond as representing their side of things. Sturgeon, who was once part of that group, has realised the pragmatism is important and now represents the more "gradualist" wing of the party - i.e. a stepped route to independence via devolution, devo-max and ultimately separation.

The people that the SNP have to attract in order to win a referendum are people like myself. - people who are not committed nationalists but who might trust the SNP more than the current incarnations of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Salmond's inflated ego is causing damage to the SNP and that might be shown at the Scottish Parliament elections. However, the Tories are also in crisis in Scotland as the full impact of Brexit and the broken promises made to the agricultural and fishing sectors become apparent. Labour remains irrelevant irrespective of who they elect as their new leader today. The SNP vote might fall a bit but the failure of the two other parties may mean they win more comfortably than would be logical in the circumstances.

 

[Unicorn]

You are spot on in saying that Salmond sees himself as the victim. He was a very fortunate man not to be convicted. His acquittal was very much on the grounds of lack of corroboration. He did not deny that any of the incidents took place - just claiming that they were consensual. I think there were major failings in the prosecution who could have made more of the Moorov Doctrine.

Rather than keeping his head down and living life quietly, Salmond's ego has meant that he is going after revenge on those who he thinks wronged him. I have little doubt that in private the Scottish Government, SNP hierarchy and Scottish civil service would have preferred him to have been convicted. The debate now is whether or not there is concrete evidence to suggest that they colluded to enhance the case against him.

Sturgeon's evidence to Committee next week will be interesting. In the broader view of this whole affair the vast majority of people will support her viewpoint even if they believe she is being economical with the truth. Despite his acquittal Salmond is a reviled figure other than amongst uber-nationalists, conspiracy-theorists, pandemic-deniers and the like.

The case has also re-opened splits within the SNP. It has always been a broad church. It's origins were in intellectual ethno-nationalism. It grew by attracting others committed to independence at all costs. However, to reach the stage where it could win the SP elections and dominate Scottish representation at Westminster it had to appeal to a broader support base. The "old style" nationalists - the fundamentalists - see Salmond as representing their side of things. Sturgeon, who was once part of that group, has realised the pragmatism is important and now represents the more "gradualist" wing of the party - i.e. a stepped route to independence via devolution, devo-max and ultimately separation.

The people that the SNP have to attract in order to win a referendum are people like myself. - people who are not committed nationalists but who might trust the SNP more than the current incarnations of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Salmond's inflated ego is causing damage to the SNP and that might be shown at the Scottish Parliament elections. However, the Tories are also in crisis in Scotland as the full impact of Brexit and the broken promises made to the agricultural and fishing sectors become apparent. Labour remains irrelevant irrespective of who they elect as their new leader today. The SNP vote might fall a bit but the failure of the two other parties may mean they win more comfortably than would be logical in the circumstances.

I must agree. The SNP in Westminster turn everything into another pitch for independence.
If i were Scottish i would want to hear a bit more about what they intend to do once Independence was achieved.
But Nicola Sturgeon is far more impressive as leader than Cameron, May or Johnson have been so she would get my vote if i were Scottish.
I watched a fair bit of Salmond under oath yesterday and i lost count of the number of times that the lady officiating ruled a question inadmissible.
I began to ask myself what they were allowed to ask him after about an hour.

 

[prorege]

I must agree. The SNP in Westminster turn everything into another pitch for independence.
If i were Scottish i would want to hear a bit more about what they intend to do once Independence was achieved.
But Nicola Sturgeon is far more impressive as leader than Cameron, May or Johnson have been so she would get my vote if i were Scottish.
I watched a fair bit of Salmond under oath yesterday and i lost count of the number of times that the lady officiating ruled a question inadmissible.
I began to ask myself what they were allowed to ask him after about an hour.

To be fair to the SNP at Westminster, they struggle for a Scotland specific role. They are largely irrelevant other than as a marker for the strength of SNP support. I’d like to see some of their more talented MPs at Holyrood.

The SNP government at Holyrood does give a clearer indication of party policies and how they would operate an independent Scotland. They are clearly centre-left, pro-green, in favour of a more progressive taxation system, supportive of minority rights, pro-European,pro-migration and not averse to public ownership of key industries / sectors.

 

[Northstandexile]

In order to be more independent do you think they should stay away from Westminster like the Irish nationalists do.

 

[prorege]

No. They have 2 functions at Westminster.

The first is to agitate for an independence referendum.

The other is to oppose government policies they disagree with. Even if these policies are primarily aimed at England they have a right to voice an opinion due to the Barnett consequentials impacting on Scotland.

The position of Sinn Fein MPs is different. They stand for election on the ticket of saying that Westminster has no jurisdiction over any part of Ireland. Part of their manifesto states they will not take their seats.

The SNP have chosen to do things differently. I doubt if that will change.

 

[Chris1963]

A bizarre bit of government policy, which would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Following the murder of a young woman by (allegedly) a plain-clothes policeman, the Government's solution is to announce an increase in the number of plain-clothes policemen in pubs, clubs, etc, presumably so that more young women can be picked up by these policemen and murdered. You couldn't make it up.....

 

[Belushi]

A bizarre bit of government policy, which would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Following the murder of a young woman by (allegedly) a plain-clothes policeman, the Government's solution is to announce an increase in the number of plain-clothes policemen in pubs, clubs, etc, presumably so that more young women can be picked up by these policemen and murdered. You couldn't make it up.....

Just wondering - has a serving policeman in this country ever been convicted for (or even charged with) murder before?

Not in the line of duty, but off-duty.

Apart from John Christie.

 

[Chris1963]

Just wondering - has a serving policeman in this country ever been convicted for (or even charged with) murder before?

Not in the line of duty, but off-duty.

Apart from John Christie.

Dennis Nilsen as well. There may be others. This is not political though, so we shouldn't be discussing it.

 

[Belushi]

Dennis Nilsen as well. There may be others. This is not political though, so we shouldn't be discussing it.

Nilsen was not a serving policeman during the time of his murders.

Standards of policing, sounds political to me.

 

[Chris1963]

And if the government hiring more plain-clothes policemen to bump off more young women wasn't silly enough, we now have the insane decision to increase the number of nuclear warheads from 180 to 260! Just think of what you could do with all that money, give everyone a pay rise and pay off some of the national debt too.

 

[Bigaitch]

And if the government hiring more plain-clothes policemen to bump off more young women wasn't silly enough, we now have the insane decision to increase the number of nuclear warheads from 180 to 260! Just think of what you could do with all that money, give everyone a pay rise and pay off some of the national debt too.

Wow, one plain clothes copper is charged with murder and you think they are all at it....incredible.
I take it you never visit the doctor just in case they are all like Harold Shipman?

 

[MattRam]

Wow, one plain clothes copper is charged with murder and you think they are all at it....incredible.
I take it you never visit the doctor just in case they are all like Harold Shipman?

Both points taken, my first wife's boyfriend before me had exactly this job and abused it, like it or not we don't do letting the fox in with hens well and my distrust of those who seek power abusing is it well founded.
Let the meek inherit the earth lol.
But don't go with the all men are rapists stuff, abhorrent as it is, men are victims are violent crime more so than women, that isn't to diminish sexual crime, but the world is becoming very descriptive in behaviours and I personally feel we are losing the ability to distinguish between what someone means and the words the they say in a wave of wokeilution

 

[Chris1963]

Wow, one plain clothes copper is charged with murder and you think they are all at it....incredible.
I take it you never visit the doctor just in case they are all like Harold Shipman?

Don't be silly, it's obvious I was only being tongue in cheek.

My comment about nuclear warheads was serious though.