FAW Tier 2 and 3 Applicants 2020-21

Harry West

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Dec 8, 2019
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Therefore 2 of Abertillery Bluebirds, Panteg and Ynyshir Albion's will need to succeed in their appeals to create 2 purely South Wales Divisions. A lot of disappointed sides mid and north, whose sporting merit, could be considered better?
After one season things will, presumably, start to level out. However, I just cannot imagine any southern Wales clubs willing to be placed in any league which is predominantly north Wales based. The only geographical beneficiaries might be from the southern parts of the present Mid Wales League area which might be able to switch to southern dominated leagues.

The current north/mid Wales part of the Welsh Pyramid is structured so that there are, in effect, 48 clubs at level 3, and the south is structured so there are only 16 clubs. However, there are no grounds to say that the 48th ranked club in the north/mid area is any different (better or worse) than the equivalent ranked club in the south which would be a club playing in the Gwent Premier League or the top division of the South Wales Alliance.

Indeed the Gwent and S Wales Alliance clubs might (?) argue that they have been held back by the hierarchical structure of the former Welsh League (south). Certainly clubs which entered the now former league could argue that they have frequently been highly successful once they've managed to fight their ways out of their lower leagues.

I shall be curious to see if the southern based clubs will start to show any enthusiasm for even entering the Wales's equivalent of the FA Vase. They've generally avoided it like the plague in the past.
 

monmamcymru

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Based on what HarryWest states then all current Tier 3 teams will be Tier 3 next season - about 15 in south, 18 in north and 11 in mid-Wales. Big difference would then be current Tier 4, where those in south would gain.

Not sure how things would change much in the future given in 2021/22, six teams will get promoted from southern Tier 4 leagues to replace six relegated from two southern leagues; same in north/mid Wales.

It is fair to say that the current Tier 3 system is unbalanced and there is certainly lack of depth in north and mid-Wales where rarely get 16 teams in their Tier 4 leagues.

Not sure what the Welsh equivalent of FA Vase is as thought there was only the Welsh Cup and Trophy. If you were trying to be funny the FAW Trophy is surely equivalent to FA Trophy or higher. Southern clubs at Tier 3 have been taking part and one reached the final this season.
 

moistureman

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Based on what HarryWest states then all current Tier 3 teams will be Tier 3 next season - about 15 in south, 18 in north and 11 in mid-Wales. Big difference would then be current Tier 4, where those in south would gain.

Not sure how things would change much in the future given in 2021/22, six teams will get promoted from southern Tier 4 leagues to replace six relegated from two southern leagues; same in north/mid Wales.

It is fair to say that the current Tier 3 system is unbalanced and there is certainly lack of depth in north and mid-Wales where rarely get 16 teams in their Tier 4 leagues.

Not sure what the Welsh equivalent of FA Vase is as thought there was only the Welsh Cup and Trophy. If you were trying to be funny the FAW Trophy is surely equivalent to FA Trophy or higher. Southern clubs at Tier 3 have been taking part and one reached the final this season.
Don't forget, promotion isn't a given, this is a Licence based system.
 

Harry West

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Based on what HarryWest states then all current Tier 3 teams will be Tier 3 next season - about 15 in south, 18 in north and 11 in mid-Wales. Big difference would then be current Tier 4, where those in south would gain.

Not sure how things would change much in the future given in 2021/22, six teams will get promoted from southern Tier 4 leagues to replace six relegated from two southern leagues; same in north/mid Wales.

It is fair to say that the current Tier 3 system is unbalanced and there is certainly lack of depth in north and mid-Wales where rarely get 16 teams in their Tier 4 leagues.

Not sure what the Welsh equivalent of FA Vase is as thought there was only the Welsh Cup and Trophy. If you were trying to be funny the FAW Trophy is surely equivalent to FA Trophy or higher. Southern clubs at Tier 3 have been taking part and one reached the final this season.
Just checked and done some research into the 2019/20 FAW Amateur Trophy which I described as being the equivalent of the FA Vase. Given that the FA Vase replaced the old FA Amateur Cup then perhaps my description wasn't so far out after all?

Again, just looking at the past season's FAW Amateur Trophy entries (previous years may be markedly different - haven't checked) the competition is as described i.e. there were approx. 151 entries with 86 from the north and mid Wales and 65 from the south/west Wales area.

Of these 43 were entries from level 3 in the north/mid Wales area against just 6 from level 3 in the south/west Wales area. Even if you include the 2019/20 level 4 clubs from the south/west this only brings it up to 13 clubs entered. 43 against 13.

Another thing which caught my eye is that, of the 151 entries there were 86 from the north/mid Wales area and 65 from the south/west area. That equates to about 57% from north/mid and 43% from south/west. However, the bulk of the south/west entries came from lower levels of the 2019/20 pyramid whereas it was the opposite in the north/mid area.

With 46 clubs needed to play in the opening Round 36 of them came from the south and just 10 from the north. Given that the overall entry was in the proportion of 57% north/mid and 43% south/west it does look a little disproportionate.

I presume that the reasoning is that so many of the south/west area clubs come from lower levels of the Welsh Pyramid so they should be seeded accordingly? After all the south/west entries look like this:

Level 3: 6 clubs (North/Mid: 43)
Level 4: 7 clubs (N/M: 30)
Level 5: 28 clubs (N/M: 12)
Level 6: 11 clubs (N/M: 1)
Level 7: 9 clubs (N/M: none)
Level 8: 4 clubs (N/M: none)

Next season, whenever that may be, the adjustments to the Pyramid could change the status of many of last seasons' entries will have changed and, excluding any promotion/relegation factors, and, although this is a very simplified guess, it may look something like this which would affect the numbers of clubs from the two regions which are chosen to enter at Round One :

Level 3: 13 clubs (North/Mid: 32)
Level 4: 35clubs (N/M: 41)
Level 5: 11 clubs (N/M: 21)
Level 6: 9 clubs (N/M: 1)
Level 7: 4 clubs (N/M: none)
Level 8: none (N/M: none)

It will still be necessary for the south/west area level 3 and 4 clubs to take a greater interest in this competition in order for it to be fairly described as representative of the strengths of the clubs in the different parts of the country. At present this competition just doesn't do that, which is a shame.
 

oftenscore6

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Interesting that the method to rebalance has been to ringfence the 2nd south Wales tier 3 for southern area teams, which certainly will redress the balance. Not the approach of the English FA in such situations alas!

Looking at the location of the Welsh league teams though, I'm wondering how they will split into 2 southern divisions at tier 3 - perhaps you can split around Port Talbot, but there's not that many teams west of there that I can see. I can see some sense therefore in including the southern MidWales teams with them anyway - no issue that all the suitable tier 4 southern area are included first. But you would likely end up with one very concentrated south division and another which is much larger area wise and disparate, but struggling for numbers.
 

moistureman

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Interesting that the method to rebalance has been to ringfence the 2nd south Wales tier 3 for southern area teams, which certainly will redress the balance. Not the approach of the English FA in such situations alas!

Looking at the location of the Welsh league teams though, I'm wondering how they will split into 2 southern divisions at tier 3 - perhaps you can split around Port Talbot, but there's not that many teams west of there that I can see. I can see some sense therefore in including the southern MidWales teams with them anyway - no issue that all the suitable tier 4 southern area are included first. But you would likely end up with one very concentrated south division and another which is much larger area wise and disparate, but struggling for numbers.
Abertillery Bluebirds, Ynyshir Albion and Panteg have succeeded in their appeals.
 

Nobber

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May 13, 2020
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So 64 from 84 clubs at Tier 3. There's going to be 20 disappointed clubs!
Does anyone know when is the decision for the 4 Regional Leagues to be made?
 

Nobber

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And the appeals start on Saturday July 11th or Monday 13th?
 

mayo

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Abertillery Bluebirds, Ynyshir Albion and Panteg have succeeded in their appeals.
As have Bangor 1876, Penmaenmawr Phoenix, Rhos Aelwyd and Saltney Town. Pencoed Athletic were the only team who appealed but were unsuccessful.
 

Harry West

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If the FAW stick with ring fencing the South/West area then they have a straight forward task in that area as all they will need to do is to relegate the bottom two places from the Welsh League (South) and promote the top eligible clubs from both the Gwent Premier and South Wales Alliance as this will give 32 clubs.

This would mean that Aberdare Town and Albion Rovers are relegated and replaced by Abertillery Excelsior and Cardiff Draconians.

Presumably these 32 clubs will be placed on a map and split on an east/west basis?

In the north it gets a bit tricky to get down to 32 clubs. The Cymru North league will provide 3 relegated clubs. At the next level down the Welsh Alliance Div.1 has 6 qualifiers, the Welsh National League Premier has 12 and the Mid Wales League Div.1 has 11 so 32 clubs, Neat!

However, the champions of the Alliance Div.2, National League Div.1 and Mid Wales Div.2 have all gained the necessary Tier 3 Certification and are due to be promoted so 35 candidate clubs. Two of the 32 from the Alliance/National/Mid leagues are in relegation positions so that may happen so we're down to 33 clubs which are all in a good position to claim they are entitled to be in at Tier 3 next season.

How will the FAW sort that out? Maybe they could copy what they did for Colwyn Bay a year ago and run one of the Tier 3 Leagues with 17 clubs for one season?

Sorting 32/33 clubs from across north and mid Wales into two east/west divisions could also be tricky. Get that map out again!

This is all speculation but we only need to wait one more day before we know what is actually happening.
 

Aberdarian

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Dec 8, 2019
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As Bridgend Street in Welsh League Division 1 don't have a Tier 3 licence (and didn't seem to apply for one) won't they also be relegated to the South Wales Alliance? I'm hoping that might save Aberdare Town. Something needs to go right for them!
 

Nobber

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Aberdare Town - only 10 years ago they were flying high as ENTO Aberaman. Where did it all go wrong?
 

Aberdarian

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God knows, long story. I'm not involved with the club.

In fairness they've spent a lot of money on their facilities over the years and probably feel rightly pissed off that other clubs haven't bothered and have managed to get round the licensing requirements by buggering off to play at other grounds.
 

oftenscore6

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As Bridgend Street in Welsh League Division 1 don't have a Tier 3 licence (and didn't seem to apply for one) won't they also be relegated to the South Wales Alliance? I'm hoping that might save Aberdare Town. Something needs to go right for them!
As far I see it, since there'll be 2 Tier 3 leagues in the south, Aberdare Town could well actually be getting a promotion. I expect Bridgend Street, and the other Welsh League 2 side who don't have a tier 3 license, Albion Rovers, will be tier 4 in the south, which presumably will include quite a number of clubs from the South wales Alliance etc. Since there were 3 tier 5 applicants in the south approved for tier 3, I expect Abertillery Excelsiors (Gwent) would get in and at least 1 of the South Wales Alliance sides, Cardiff Draconians and Baglan Dragons will come up. If all 3 come up, then you could be playing tier 4 again, but if any miss out, that will be to Aberdare's benefit.
 

Aberdarian

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As the South Wales Alliance are normally only allowed to promote one club (which needs to finish in the top 2 positions) then I would expect Cardiff Draconians to come up based on finishing second on PPG. If they also promoted Baglan (who finished 4th on PPG, I think) then Aberdare might have grounds for appeal. If the time taken to deal with previous appeals is any indication this would probably mean Aberdare and Baglan not starting next season until well after Christmas! That's assuming everyone else starts before Christmas I suppose.
 

Harry West

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Missed Bridgend Street not having a Tier 3 Certificate.

Apologies to Aberdare Town. Yes they would avoid going down. Yes they would be in line for a promotion.
 

Nobber

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Its strange regarding Bridgend Street - does anyone know why they didn't apply? I thought their ground and facilities were almost up to standard if not actually good enough.
 

moistureman

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As the South Wales Alliance are normally only allowed to promote one club (which needs to finish in the top 2 positions) then I would expect Cardiff Draconians to come up based on finishing second on PPG. If they also promoted Baglan (who finished 4th on PPG, I think) then Aberdare might have grounds for appeal. If the time taken to deal with previous appeals is any indication this would probably mean Aberdare and Baglan not starting next season until well after Christmas! That's assuming everyone else starts before Christmas I suppose.
There's no promotion, as such, into this new system. The FAW Pyramid structure for this level states , Licence, Sporting merit and Geography in that order.
 
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