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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19

 

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doodle
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Mar 23, 2019, 10:29 PM

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Post #1 of 47 (23698 views)
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Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can someone please confirm their interpretation of the FA rules regarding the above.

My interpretation is that the 14 Step 5 champions are promoted (subject to meeting criteria) and then the 7 best Runners-up go into a play off
with (in theory) the 7 teams finishing 18th in Step 4.

The 14 teams finishing 19th & 20th are relegated - No reprieves for any team in 20th.

So after todays games - the following would apply if unchanged to the end of the season.

14 Step 4 vacancies are created by........

North Ferriby United - Folded
Colwyn Bay - Moving to Welsh League
Thamesmead - Folded
Egham Town - 20th
Skelmersdale - 20th
Fleet Town - 20th
Romford - 20th
North Leigh - 20th
Gresley - 20th
Barnstaple 19th - PPG 0.594
Kendal Town 19th - PPG 0.613
Mildenhall Town 19th PPG 0.688
Molesey - 19th PPG 0.700
Greenwich Borough 19th PPG 0.800

The 2 remaining teams in 19th would be reprieved from Relegation and contest the playoffs (v the 7 best 2nd placed teams at Step 5)

Carlton Town 0.867
Aylesbury 0.875

Along with the 5 WORST 18th placed teams on PPG
South Park 0.781
Mangotsfierld 0.781
Glossop 0.806
Spalding 0.875
Guernesy 0.933

And the remaining 2 18th placed ckubs would be reprieved altogether
Dunstable 0.938
Witham 0.938


Atavistic
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Mar 24, 2019, 12:12 AM

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Post #2 of 47 (23510 views)
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Re: [doodle] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm not sure about the rest (certainly haven't heard anything about play-offs between Step 4 and 5 teams, at the very least), but Aylesbury won't be reprieved as they are set to be demoted for failing to meet ground grading criteria. But, if they finish outside the bottom two, the team who finishes in 19th instead would be reprieved (or so I would assume, anyway).



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paulh66
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Mar 24, 2019, 12:30 AM

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Post #3 of 47 (23497 views)
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Re: [doodle] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Playoffs between steps 4 and 5 come into play next season. For this season, the bottom two in each of the seven step 4 leagues go down (and the bottom placed club cannot be reprieved), to be replaced by the 14 step 5 champions.


doodle
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Mar 24, 2019, 12:43 AM

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Post #4 of 47 (23477 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks Paul - Yes I was using the FA Doc http://www.hallmarksecurityleague.com/images/rules/NLS%20Regulations%20018-19.pdf

And totally missed the important bit "from 2019/20"!! Thanks for that!


doodle
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Mar 24, 2019, 12:50 AM

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Post #5 of 47 (23463 views)
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Re: [Atavistic] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm not sure about the rest (certainly haven't heard anything about play-offs between Step 4 and 5 teams, at the very least), but Aylesbury won't be reprieved as they are set to be demoted for failing to meet ground grading criteria. But, if they finish outside the bottom two, the team who finishes in 19th instead would be reprieved (or so I would assume, anyway).


I was aware that a team had failed ground grading because of the size of their dressing rooms but couldn't remember who it was..... SO....

That would currently leave as follows:
North Ferriby United - Folded
Colwyn Bay - Moving to Welsh League
Thamesmead - Folded
Aylesbury - Failed to Meet Ground Grading
Egham Town - 20th
Skelmersdale - 20th
Fleet Town - 20th
Romford - 20th
North Leigh - 20th
Gresley - 20th
Barnstaple 19th - PPG 0.594
Kendal Town 19th - PPG 0.613
Mildenhall Town 19th PPG 0.688
Molesey - 19th PPG 0.700

As the 14 teams assuming PPG is used Nationally to allocate reprieves rather than just being lucky enough to be in the right Geographical location and right division


leohoenig
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Mar 24, 2019, 1:38 AM

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Post #6 of 47 (23423 views)
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Re: [doodle] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Should not

Greenwich Borough - 19th PPG 0.774
and Carlton 19th PPG 0.867

be added to the list
(Clearly on current points, the two due for reprieve, thanks to NFU and CB)

The assumption here is that the two above are pooled, while Thamesmead are 20th in their division (hence only 6 20th placed teams). Aylesbury are currently 19th, but if they rise a place, then is the reprieve pooled or given within division? Do we assume the same rules for both Aylesbury and Colywn Bay?

Apart from that, we have heard from a few clubs fundraising to meet the standards, and Aylesbury who accepted demotion anyway, but is the general feeling that no one else is affected by stricter application of the ground grading rule?



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doodle
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Mar 24, 2019, 2:30 AM

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Post #7 of 47 (23395 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Should not

Greenwich Borough - 19th PPG 0.774
and Carlton 19th PPG 0.867

be added to the list
(Clearly on current points, the two due for reprieve, thanks to NFU and CB)

The assumption here is that the two above are pooled, while Thamesmead are 20th in their division (hence only 6 20th placed teams). Aylesbury are currently 19th, but if they rise a place, then is the reprieve pooled or given within division? Do we assume the same rules for both Aylesbury and Colywn Bay?

Apart from that, we have heard from a few clubs fundraising to meet the standards, and Aylesbury who accepted demotion anyway, but is the general feeling that no one else is affected by stricter application of the ground grading rule?




Thanks Leo - You've hit the nail I was trying to get to - My interpretation is that the reprieves will be done on a Nationally pooled basis - but do we know who can give us an actual answer or do we have to wait until after the season has ended and we get to the League AGM's before the FA announce it??? Surely that document is supposed to cover all eventualities but it obviously doesn't!


leohoenig
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Mar 24, 2019, 7:11 AM

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Post #8 of 47 (23306 views)
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Re: [doodle] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is quite difficult to interpret the rules of the FA, and I have often gone by things written on here without checking

Looking again at rule 5.5.1, which is where Colwyn Bay stands, then it says they are treated as a relegated club, which means the 19th place club in the division is not relegated.

The same would go for Aylesbury, if they avoid a 19th place finish. It is not clear (to me) whether Aylesbury have formally resigned, or have accepted their fate as a club non-compliant with the grade.

My understanding is that the rules may be different according to this distinction. A club relegated for non-compliance with the grade (in this case Grade D), can not be promoted again until it is compliant with Grade D. Other Step 5 clubs can be promoted with Grade F (at present, but possible Grade E in future) and then have until March 31 following promotion to reach Grade D. Aylesbury could be promoted in 2020 if they can meet Grade D by then. (Rule 5.9)

If they have resigned then they are not permitted to be promoted for one season (in other words, Aylesbury could not be promoted in 2020, but could in 2021), (Rule 5.10), but 5.9 would not then apply, so they could go up in 2021 without improving the ground and then be given until March 31 to comply

The other point worth making is I cannot see anything that says the bottom club cannot be reprieved.

So, changing my earlier comment, I now believe that the 19th placed club in Northern Premier - 1 East, and Southern - Central are not relegated (assuming Aylesbury finish above 19th). NFU's demise leads to one pooled reprieve which currently goes to Carlton.



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(This post was edited by leohoenig on Mar 24, 2019, 7:23 AM)


paulh66
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Mar 24, 2019, 9:35 AM

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Post #9 of 47 (23091 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The other point worth making is I cannot see anything that says the bottom club cannot be reprieved.


Reg 5.3: "At Steps 2-5 the Club finishing in last place in the table at the end of the Regular Season will be relegated and not reprieved."


paulh66
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Mar 24, 2019, 10:27 AM

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Post #10 of 47 (22987 views)
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Re: [doodle] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Depends on when the vacancy is created. The various scenarios are covered in Reg 5.5. Paraphrasing re step 4:
- If the vacancy is created before the end of the season (e.g. Colwyn Bay, assuming they've now formally notified their decision to leave at end of season), the reprieve is in the same division. Though if there are more vacancies than clubs eligible to be reprieved in that division (unlikely?), then the additional reprieves are done on a ppg basis across that step (5.5.1, 5.5.3(a)).
- If it's created after the end of the season but before the league AGM, it's filled by the best step 5 runner up on a ppg basis (5.5.2(c)).
- If it's created after the AGM, the vacancy doesn't get filled (5.5.2(f)).

I haven't checked out when a vacancy is deemed to have been created in those cases where clubs are booted out because they've failed a grading (though I'd always assumed the actual grading inspections are done and dusted before end of season).


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Mar 24, 2019, 10:34 AM)


windydcfc
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Mar 24, 2019, 10:57 AM

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Post #11 of 47 (22928 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I’m not sure exactly what this means & someone may clarify. As of now, North Ferriby Utd ‘have not’ officially notified the NPL that they’ve been liquidated. I did hear something about 2 weeks to appeal to the courts & whether this has something to do with the above.



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blackdouglas
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Mar 24, 2019, 3:26 PM

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Post #12 of 47 (22567 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I’m not sure exactly what this means & someone may clarify. As of now, North Ferriby Utd ‘have not’ officially notified the NPL that they’ve been liquidated. I did hear something about 2 weeks to appeal to the courts & whether this has something to do with the above.


Confirmation from the NPL



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


petermiller36
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Mar 24, 2019, 9:36 PM

Posts: 1112
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Team(s): Ware & AFC Wimbledon

Post #13 of 47 (22091 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It is quite difficult to interpret the rules of the FA, and I have often gone by things written on here without checking

Looking again at rule 5.5.1, which is where Colwyn Bay stands, then it says they are treated as a relegated club, which means the 19th place club in the division is not relegated.

The same would go for Aylesbury, if they avoid a 19th place finish. It is not clear (to me) whether Aylesbury have formally resigned, or have accepted their fate as a club non-compliant with the grade.

My understanding is that the rules may be different according to this distinction. A club relegated for non-compliance with the grade (in this case Grade D), can not be promoted again until it is compliant with Grade D. Other Step 5 clubs can be promoted with Grade F (at present, but possible Grade E in future) and then have until March 31 following promotion to reach Grade D. Aylesbury could be promoted in 2020 if they can meet Grade D by then. (Rule 5.9)

If they have resigned then they are not permitted to be promoted for one season (in other words, Aylesbury could not be promoted in 2020, but could in 2021), (Rule 5.10), but 5.9 would not then apply, so they could go up in 2021 without improving the ground and then be given until March 31 to comply

The other point worth making is I cannot see anything that says the bottom club cannot be reprieved.

So, changing my earlier comment, I now believe that the 19th placed club in Northern Premier - 1 East, and Southern - Central are not relegated (assuming Aylesbury finish above 19th). NFU's demise leads to one pooled reprieve which currently goes to Carlton.


That's how I have it too. Link here if anyone wants to see the situation and PPG of clubs involved: http://bit.ly/PPG1819



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


Mister TwoU
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Mar 27, 2019, 4:10 PM

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Post #14 of 47 (20678 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The same would go for Aylesbury, if they avoid a 19th place finish. It is not clear (to me) whether Aylesbury have formally resigned, or have accepted their fate as a club non-compliant with the grade.


AFAIK, Aylesbury FC are to merge with a small club (whose name I've forgotten - 'Something Dynamos FC') and will become 'Aylesbury Vale Dynamos FC' for next season in the Spartan South Midland League Premier Division... at least, that's their plan.

That might also affect their promotional allowance?



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blackdouglas
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Mar 27, 2019, 5:03 PM

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Post #15 of 47 (20590 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The same would go for Aylesbury, if they avoid a 19th place finish. It is not clear (to me) whether Aylesbury have formally resigned, or have accepted their fate as a club non-compliant with the grade.


AFAIK, Aylesbury FC are to merge with a small club (whose name I've forgotten - 'Something Dynamos FC') and will become 'Aylesbury Vale Dynamos FC' for next season in the Spartan South Midland League Premier Division... at least, that's their plan.

That might also affect their promotional allowance?


Bedgrove Dynamos Youth FC

This is more like a Senior club taking a Youth Football Club under their wing with a name change to reflect the merger. Having a full range of youth teams under the one umbrella opens up access to all sorts of grants available.



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Richard Rundle
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Mar 27, 2019, 6:06 PM

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Re: [blackdouglas] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I thought it was just "Bedgrove Dyanmos", the club that has two senior teams in the Aylesbury & District League.


BDA_85
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Apr 9, 2019, 12:47 PM

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Post #17 of 47 (17984 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Seems like the season is over for a few step 4 teams aimining for promotion via the step 4 play-offs (games played, points, min PPG, max PPG).

Isthmian League North Division (20 teams)
2 Maldon & Tiptree 34 71 1.87 2.24
3 Aveley 34 68 1.79 2.10
4 Heybridge Swifts 34 68 1.79 2.10
5 Coggeshall Town 34 65 1.71 2.03

Isthmian League South East Division (19 teams)
2 Horsham 33 65 1.81 2.06
3 Hastings United 32 62 1.72 2.06
4 Ashford United 32 61 1.69 2.03
5 Haywards Heath Town 32 59 1.64 1.97

Isthmian League South Central Division (20 teams)
2 Bracknell Town 33 68 1.79 2.18
3 Cheshunt 34 64 1.68 2.00
4 Marlow 33 63 1.66 2.05
5 Westfield 34 61 1.61 1.92

Northern Premier League East Division (20 teams)
2 Pontefract Collieries 33 66 1.74 2.13
3 Ossett United 34 62 1.63 1.95
4 Brighouse Town 34 62 1.63 1.95
5 Sheffield 34 62 1.63 1.95

Northern Premier League West Division (20 teams)
2 Radcliffe 34 71 1.87 2.18
3 Ramsbottom United 35 67 1.76 2.00
4 Runcorn Linnets 34 65 1.71 2.03
5 Leek Town 33 61 1.61 2.00

Southern League Division One Central (20 teams)
2 Bromsgrove Sporting 34 78 2.05 2.37
3 Corby Town 34 71 1.87 2.18
4 Bedford Town 34 56 1.47 1.79
5 Didcot Town 34 55 1.45 1.76

Southern League Division One South (20 teams)
2 Yate Town 34 72 1.89 2.21
3 Moneyfields 34 67 1.76 2.08
4 Cirencester Town 34 65 1.71 2.03
5 Cinderford Town 34 61 1.61 1.92


Brassneck
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Apr 9, 2019, 10:25 PM

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Post #18 of 47 (17451 views)
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Re: [BDA_85] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are there any circumstances where more than the 5 teams from the Step 4 play offs can be promoted?


ladderman
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Apr 9, 2019, 10:40 PM

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Post #19 of 47 (17403 views)
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Re: [Brassneck] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes. 9 or more sides from step 3 or above would have to fold/take voluntary relegation.
So, no.


(This post was edited by ladderman on Apr 9, 2019, 10:41 PM)


petermiller36
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Apr 10, 2019, 7:50 PM

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Re: [ladderman] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes. 9 or more sides from step 3 or above would have to fold/take voluntary relegation.
So, no.


Not completely correct. 9 more sides from Step 3 would need to go bust for an extra playoff winner to go up, but if a Step 2 or higher side goes bust then an unlucky Step 4 playoff winner gets the space rather than reprieves at Step 3.

North Ferriby United's situation isn't really a reprieve, they're just effectively placed bottom.



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


paulh66
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Apr 10, 2019, 7:59 PM

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Post #21 of 47 (16360 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Reg 5.5,2(b):
"Where a vacancy occurs at Step 3 following the completion of a Playing Season the Club with the best points per match ratio in the Regular Season which is a Play Off winner but not promoted under Regulation 5.2 is promoted" (Reg 5.2 is what explains the normal promotion and playoff scenario).

So not sure where this talk of nine clubs going bust comes from. It just takes one to pull out from step 3 after the end of the season in order to enable an extra playoff winner to go up.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Apr 10, 2019, 8:08 PM)


petermiller36
First Team Sub

Apr 10, 2019, 9:33 PM

Posts: 1112
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Post #22 of 47 (16190 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Reg 5.5,2(b):
"Where a vacancy occurs at Step 3 following the completion of a Playing Season the Club with the best points per match ratio in the Regular Season which is a Play Off winner but not promoted under Regulation 5.2 is promoted" (Reg 5.2 is what explains the normal promotion and playoff scenario).

So not sure where this talk of nine clubs going bust comes from. It just takes one to pull out from step 3 after the end of the season in order to enable an extra playoff winner to go up.


It's the idea that that currently one club has gone bust at Step 3, but that doesn't change anything for Step 4 clubs. In the ridiculously unlike event that nine clubs go bust then no-one goes down. If ten go bust then an extra club is needed to be promoted.

But as I say it's an irrelevant conversation as it will never happen.



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


paulh66
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Apr 10, 2019, 9:43 PM

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Post #23 of 47 (16161 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I see, yes, I agree the nine clubs conversation is irrelevant.

Although it was started by Brassneck's question about whether there are any circumstances in which more than five playoff winners can be promoted from step 4. The answer to which is yes, if the far more plausible situation outlined in my previous post occurs.


petermiller36
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Apr 10, 2019, 9:45 PM

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Post #24 of 47 (16150 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Absolutely!

I still can't get my head around how crazy this playoff situation is. As I'm sure 99% of us on here can't. And yet the FA still went with it...



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


BDA_85
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Apr 11, 2019, 11:18 AM

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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4/5 Relegation/Promotion 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Had a discussion about it with some Marlow fans on Tuesday night at Molesey and they are in denial that it will happen. Some clubs/fans seem blinkered to the concept. Admittedly, Marlow's current PPG is one of the better ones so of the 5 clubs, out of the 7 play off winners, they are likely to be promoted.


(This post was edited by BDA_85 on Apr 11, 2019, 11:46 AM)

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