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Lowland League promotion/relegation

 

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Gladstone
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Mar 13, 2019, 9:43 PM

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Lowland League promotion/relegation Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can someone enlighten me what are the rules governing this please?
As things stand LL has 15 clubs only, as Selkirk have withdrawn. Does this mean that remaining bottom club (looking just now to be Whitehill Welfare) will be relegated or not, and if so whether potentially two clubs from the EoS/SoS/West Junior/East Junior will fill the gaps?
And can the decision on this depend on whether the bottom club in Scottish 2 (almost certain to be Albion, Berwick, Cowdenbeath or Queen's Park) is relegated to the LL and if so whether final HL/LL play off promotes a LL side (probably East Kilbride) or a HL side: Cove Rangers or whoever? I cannot find chapter and verse on this one anywhere. Where are the Regulations on this?



Gladstone


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [Gladstone] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I recently read somewhere, I can' find the article at the moment, that the Lowland League will have 16 teams next season. The league will ask for applications from teams wanting to fill the extra space, including an application from any team that is relegated at the end of the 2018/19 season.

From what I remember after reading this, it means if no suitable team is automatically promoted, according to the current pyramid structure, as it is, then any other team from outside the Lowland League that passes the league grading requirements are free to apply.

If I find the article then I will post.


prorege
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Re: [Gladstone] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Assuming any of them have licences, the 3 Conference winners in the East of Scotland League will play off for the title. They will then play the winners of the South of Scotland league, assuming they are licensed, and the winners of that game wil be promoted to the Lowland league. The SoS league Champions are unlikely to be licensed. At present only Linlithgow of the likely East Conference winners are licensed. Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Broxburn and Hill of Beath might be licensed by then or might not.
The team that finishes 15th in the Lowland League will also be relegated - likely to be Whitehill Welfare.
If Albion Rovers or Berwick Rangers are relegated after a play-off they will drop to the Lowland League. Don't know where you get Cowden or Queen's Park from as possible relegation fodder.

Therefore:

If East Kilbride are promoted to the SPFL, then there will still be one or two vacancies in the Lowland league (i,e, SPFL club 42, 13 survivors and possibly East / South Champions depending on the licensing status of the East / South Champions, = 14 or 15)

If Cove Rangers are promoted to the SPFL, then the Lowland league will have one or two vacancies (i.e. E Kilbride, the 13 survivors and possibly the East / South Champions = 14 or 15)
The vacancies will be filled by application. Club 15 in the LL and any other licensed club would be eligible to apply for the vacancies.
Likely scenario, I think, is that LL will circle the wagons and re-elect Club 15. They might also show loyalty to Preston Athletic, a founder member of the LL and re-elect them to the LL. Alternatively Linlithgow Rose, a licensed club, might be sucessful in election if they have not secured promotion through the Play offs.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

http://slfl.co.uk/...ions-for-membership/


Gladstone
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Mar 14, 2019, 12:03 AM

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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I recently read somewhere, I can' find the article at the moment, that the Lowland League will have 16 teams next season. The league will ask for applications from teams wanting to fill the extra space, including an application from any team that is relegated at the end of the 2018/19 season.

From what I remember after reading this, it means if no suitable team is automatically promoted, according to the current pyramid structure, as it is, then any other team from outside the Lowland League that passes the league grading requirements are free to apply.

If I find the article then I will post.

Thanks. Though that only addresses part of the question. The pyramid structure as envisaged to incorporate two senior leagues (EoS and SoS) and two junior (West and East) is not entirely the issue. It is highly unlikely indeed that there could be any other LL aspirant from elsewhere below.
But as things stand, and if Whitehill (or whoever are bottom of LL) are definitely relegated, then there could be two vacancies from below. Conversely, if Whitehill or whoever are NOT to be relegated (due to Selkirk's prior withdrawal reducing LL to 15 teams for 2018/19) there could be an issue at the other end if one aspirant fill Selkirk's vacant slot. Suppose a HL side (e.g. Cove Rangers) wins the HL/LL playoff and the winner wins the final playoff and gains Scottish 2 status replacing e.g. Albion Rovers now to be relegated to LL? This will potentially make a LL of 17.
Moreover in that scenario also, if Selkirk had not withdrawn and thus been the relegated team, there would still be no vacancy in a 16 team league for any promotion from below at all unless TWO teams were relegated from LL.

In England this sort of situation happens within the pyramid all the time and there are formulae for resolving it. But I cannot find any comparable Regulation for this in Scotland. Is there any? If so, where?



Gladstone


Gladstone
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Mar 14, 2019, 12:36 AM

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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Assuming any of them have licences, the 3 Conference winners in the East of Scotland League will play off for the title. They will then play the winners of the South of Scotland league, assuming they are licensed, and the winners of that game wil be promoted to the Lowland league. The SoS league Champions are unlikely to be licensed. At present only Linlithgow of the likely East Conference winners are licensed. Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Broxburn and Hill of Beath might be licensed by then or might not.
The team that finishes 15th in the Lowland League will also be relegated - likely to be Whitehill Welfare.
If Albion Rovers or Berwick Rangers are relegated after a play-off they will drop to the Lowland League. Don't know where you get Cowden or Queen's Park from as possible relegation fodder.

Therefore:

If East Kilbride are promoted to the SPFL, then there will still be one or two vacancies in the Lowland league (i,e, SPFL club 42, 13 survivors and possibly East / South Champions depending on the licensing status of the East / South Champions, = 14 or 15)

If Cove Rangers are promoted to the SPFL, then the Lowland league will have one or two vacancies (i.e. E Kilbride, the 13 survivors and possibly the East / South Champions = 14 or 15)
The vacancies will be filled by application. Club 15 in the LL and any other licensed club would be eligible to apply for the vacancies.
Likely scenario, I think, is that LL will circle the wagons and re-elect Club 15. They might also show loyalty to Preston Athletic, a founder member of the LL and re-elect them to the LL. Alternatively Linlithgow Rose, a licensed club, might be sucessful in election if they have not secured promotion through the Play offs.

Thanks, which again answers my question 50% but not all.

I agree Cowden and QP are unlikely to be bottom, but I included them just in case since they with Berwick and Albion currently make up the bottom four: all well in the South thus potentially for LL rather than HL, so the same situation would pertain whoever it be.

Of course if the LL winners (likely East Kilbride) win the playoffs and make it to SL2 then it would be a 'straight swap' so if Whitehill were then relegated there would be TWO vacancies in LL from below. Are any of the possible two Junior winners licensed or aspiring so to be? Hard to be sure who they will be yet; but (although not leaders just now) look most likely to Auchinleck Talbot and Lochee Utd due to substantial number of games in hand following cup runs still ongoing, including two junior semis imminent against each other. If not licensed, and if SoS winners are as you say also unlikely to be licensed (and even if they are they're unlikely to win a playoff with the EoS ultimate winners) then there'll only be one EoS team in the LL so still leaving a LL of 15 if Whitehill are relegated regardless. It is a simple matter of arithmetic.

What I want to know is: where in Scotland are the Regulations and formulae governing where this sort of thing is to be resolved in case of conflict? Or are there none such, so any decisions just left to a 'just wait and see' situation: if so this is incompetence beyond belief.



Gladstone

(This post was edited by Gladstone on Mar 14, 2019, 12:59 AM)


leohoenig
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Post #7 of 32 (4823 views)
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Re: [Gladstone] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

For this season, only the winners of the play-off between East of Scotland and South of Scotland gets a Lowland League place.

No Junior teams, West or East are involved, that is future speculation which could be in place next season

There are two guaranteed vacanices in the Lowland, these are the current vacancy, and the relegation of the bottom placed club
There would be a third vacancy, if and only if a Lowland league club was promoted, but the relegated club from the Scottish League joined the Highland League (not plausible considering the current league positions)
One of the vacancies would be filled if a Highland League club (aka Cove) were promoted and the relegated club from the Scottish League joined the Lowland League (clearly plausible)
If a licensed club can be found from the winners of the three EofS conference winners and the SofS winners, then they must take one of the vacancies.
Any vacancies still remaining will be filled by election from eligible clubs, with the club to be relegated from the Lowland allowed to submit an application and therefore favourite to take the place.


If I have made any mistakes here, then Prorege can correct it



Fat AND Pompous.
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prorege
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Re: [Gladstone] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To


What I want to know is: where in Scotland are the Regulations and formulae governing where this sort of thing is to be resolved in case of conflict? Or are there none such, so any decisions just left to a 'just wait and see' situation: if so this is incompetence beyond belief.


There are no overarching rules. The rules are the rules of the relevant Leagues and a concordat between those Leagues.

At the start of each season there is a meeting of relevant parties. For 2018/19 they were the Lowland, East and South of Scotland Leagues. They have previously agreed a concordat regarding the current promotion / relegation rules. At that meeting each Lowland League club nominates which feeder league it would drop to if relegated.


Once it is confirmed that Junior leagues will join the pyramid then the concordat will presumably be re-defined to include them.

Confusuin arose this season with the withdrawal and subsequent expulsion of Selkirk. Initially the Lowland League decided that team 15 would be relegated. Within their own processes this decision was then reversed. However, an appeal was made (by parties unknown) to the SFA who act solely as an arbiter in these matters and thee appeal was upheld. Consequently club 15 will be relegated but may, of course, apply for reinstatement ikn the event kf a vacancy(s) as described above.

You will not find a set of rules governing the "pyramid", which is not an entity as such, but simply the outcome of agreements between trhe relevant parties.


Gladstone
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Mar 14, 2019, 1:36 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To


What I want to know is: where in Scotland are the Regulations and formulae governing where this sort of thing is to be resolved in case of conflict? Or are there none such, so any decisions just left to a 'just wait and see' situation: if so this is incompetence beyond belief.


There are no overarching rules. The rules are the rules of the relevant Leagues and a concordat between those Leagues.

At the start of each season there is a meeting of relevant parties. For 2018/19 they were the Lowland, East and South of Scotland Leagues. They have previously agreed a concordat regarding the current promotion / relegation rules. At that meeting each Lowland League club nominates which feeder league it would drop to if relegated.


Once it is confirmed that Junior leagues will join the pyramid then the concordat will presumably be re-defined to include them.

Confusuin arose this season with the withdrawal and subsequent expulsion of Selkirk. Initially the Lowland League decided that team 15 would be relegated. Within their own processes this decision was then reversed. However, an appeal was made (by parties unknown) to the SFA who act solely as an arbiter in these matters and thee appeal was upheld. Consequently club 15 will be relegated but may, of course, apply for reinstatement in the event of a vacancy(s) as described above.

You will not find a set of rules governing the "pyramid", which is not an entity as such, but simply the outcome of agreements between the relevant parties.


Thanks. So it's all somewhat 'back of the envelope' still. Oh well.



Gladstone


windydcfc
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are Stranraer Reserves eligible for promotion from the SOSL?


prorege
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Re: [windydcfc] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No. No reserve teams allowed in LL or HL.


windydcfc
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No. No reserve teams allowed in LL or HL.



So are the runners up eligible for promotion?


prorege
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Re: [windydcfc] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No. Winners only.


windydcfc
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Have I got this right then, as it stands the 3 EOSL winners are all eligible? Or do they have to have a playoff?


prorege
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Re: [windydcfc] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

None of the 3 East of Scotland winners in decided yet. One the 3 Conference winners are settled they will play off to be East of Scotland League Champions.

Then, if eligible, the East of Scotland League Champions will play off against the South of Scotland League Champions (if eligible) for a place in the Lowland League. Last year Kelty Hearts thrashed Threave Rovers in the equivalent match.

Of the teams near the top of the 3 East of Scotland Conferences, only Linlithgow Rose are currently eligible. Some others hope to be eligible by May - notably Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Hill of Beath.

The 3 way East of Scotland League Play off goes ahead regardless of whether clubs have licenses or not.

I think it is unlikely that the East v South Play Off will go ahead as the South Champions will not be licensed.

In that case the East Champions (if licensed) would be promoted to the Lowland League.

There is no cascade effect of runners-up, third place taking over if the top club is not licensed.

Any licensed club can apply for any vacancies which may be available in the Lowland League once the dust has settled on the League Two Play Off and the Lowland League Play Off.


windydcfc
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If the Highland League champions are promoted. I assume Albion Rovers will be placed into the Lowland League? What happens to the space made available in the HL? Especially when that league ignored the SFA’s request to reduce its numbers!


prorege
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Re: [windydcfc] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's up to the Highland League clubs. The clubs will decide if they want to run with one less member, or invite applications. There will be plenty time to sort it out after the Play Offs have happened.


windydcfc
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I know that their was interest in joining the HL from a couple of clubs a few years back. Are those clubs still interested & if a space was available who do you think would apply. Plus which club would be the most likely to be accepted into the HL?


007Dale
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I know that their was interest in joining the HL from a couple of clubs a few years back. Are those clubs still interested & if a space was available who do you think would apply. Plus which club would be the most likely to be accepted into the HL?


Didn’t Banks o’Dee once have hopes of joining the Highland league?


prorege
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Re: [windydcfc] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm not convinced there would be any applicants.
Banls o' Dee's last pronouncement on the ma\tter was that they were no longer interested, citing the travelling as the reason.
None of the other North Junior clubs would be close to good enough, nor do they have suitable floodlit grounds.
Halkirk United were mentioned as potential applicants a few years ago but I think it unlikely that they would want in.
An ICT reserve team have also been mentioned but I think thay are also unlikely.

I've seen Pyramidistas advocate Orkney and Western isles teams - clearly they have no grasp iof basic geography or economics, and no knowledge of the sort of standards the Highland League demands.
From what I have heard the Highland League have, in the past, told the SFA they will not admit a reserve team. However, that would not be a binding commitment and at the end of the day the Highland League can admit whoever they like.


Tykeoldboy
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Re: [prorege] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The HL has operated with an odd number of teams before so next season, should it happen, won't be anything unusual.


Gladstone
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Mar 15, 2019, 10:47 PM

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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The HL has operated with an odd number of teams before so next season, should it happen, won't be anything unusual.

So it seems that nothing at all is certain, except that 15th in LL will be relegated in the first instance, though even that is subject to possible reprieve/re-admittance.

Main unknown is contingent on whether Albion or Berwick or whoever get relegated and if so whether replaced by a HL or LL team.

if no change, or replaced by a LL team (probably East Kilbride) then Albion/Berwick will need to apply to LL, and (thanks for link Tykeoldboy) could theoretically be refused (though I'd reckon this highly unlikely) would result in a'straight swap' still needing a club to fill the vacant slot caused by Selkirk's departure. This would thus leave two gaps: one for the winner of the EoS/SoS/E Junior/W Junior playoffs (assuming there is a licensed club among any of these; and the other for the 'relegated' 15th club (or any other eligible applicant!) to fill.

But if the relegated SL2 team is replaced by a HL club (probably Cove Rangers) then there'll be no such LL space so with Albion/Berwick or whoever relegated to LL and a licensed winner from Step 6 able for promotion to LL then there'll be no vacancy for the 15th in LL to fill; so if Whitehill Welfare they'll relegate to EoS, or if Dalbeattie Star or Gretna 2008 to SoS.

Have I got this right?



Gladstone


prorege
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Re: [Gladstone] Lowland League promotion/relegation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not sure which league Gretna and Dalbeattie have chosen to be relegated to. Both are former EOS members. Obviously SOS offers a much easier route back to the LL, but EOS offers much more money.

All will become clear by the end of May.


(This post was edited by prorege on Mar 16, 2019, 7:59 AM)


ArchieB
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if no change, or replaced by a LL team (probably East Kilbride) then Albion/Berwick will need to apply to LL, and (thanks for link Tykeoldboy) could theoretically be refused (though I'd reckon this highly unlikely)

Have I got this right?

No you haven't.
If SPFL club #42 (probably Albion/Berwick) loses the play-off then they do NOT need to apply to the LL, they are automatically allocated a place which would NOT be refused under anything other than some unimagined extreme circumstance.



Awa' and bile yer heid, ya Sassenach!


Gladstone
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Mar 18, 2019, 10:44 PM

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In Reply To
if no change, or replaced by a LL team (probably East Kilbride) then Albion/Berwick will need to apply to LL, and (thanks for link Tykeoldboy) could theoretically be refused (though I'd reckon this highly unlikely)

Have I got this right?

No you haven't.
If SPFL club #42 (probably Albion/Berwick) loses the play-off then they do NOT need to apply to the LL, they are automatically allocated a place which would NOT be refused under anything other than some unimagined extreme circumstance.


Ah. Following the link kindly provided by Tykeoldboy ( http://slfl.co.uk/applications-for-membership). which surprised me a bit. I'd understood they had to apply on same terms as anyone else.



Gladstone

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