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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Danny Lloyd

 

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leohoenig
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Jul 17, 2018, 7:31 PM

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Post #1 of 28 (6566 views)
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Danny Lloyd Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is a bit of a strange story
https://trainingground.guru/...bout-earning-peanuts

Of course, first and foremost we must remember he transferred away from Peterborough, so we should not take the 80K figure to be accurate. At the very least one bets it includes a signing bonus, appearances and goalscoring bonuses.

But then we have the claim that as well as paying a transfer fee for Lloyd, Salford are to pay him 4,000 a week on a three year contract. That is an agreement to pay over 600,000 in wages. Is it right that a non-league side with an average crowd of 1600 last season should pay this?



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paulh66
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Jul 17, 2018, 7:46 PM

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Post #2 of 28 (6524 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My vague understanding is that, whereas the EFL has some meaningful kind of financial fair play rules, the National League and lower do not. This was one reason I heard why FGR struggled so badly in League 2 last season (though having Cooper and son probably didn't help either).

It was such a relief that we (Tranmere) got promoted last season, not only because the presumed big-hitters like Chesterfield and Leyton Orient should now be ready to push hard but also because of the emerging success of smaller clubs with money beyond their natural status - Ebbsfleet, Boreham Wood and AFC Fylde laid down a serious marker last time and Salford will push it even further....much further by the looks of it. And the likes of Billericay and others will soon be knocking on the door too.

It's at this level of the game I fear we could be heading for a fall unless some kind of FFP is introduced soon.

As for Lloyd, Posh are well shut of him.


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 17, 2018, 8:17 PM

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Post #3 of 28 (6440 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Knowing what Kyle Vassell was paid by Peterborough when he left stortford, it's not inconceivable Lloyd earned that if win and goal bonuses are taken into account


ladderman
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Jul 17, 2018, 8:20 PM

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Post #4 of 28 (6435 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Boreham Wood don't appear to be bankrolled. They have very successful academy and community programmes, and do well out of their links with arsenal and Watford


steve walker
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Jul 18, 2018, 12:28 AM

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Post #5 of 28 (6026 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Okay I read the link. I don't see where Boreham Wood come into it. Enlighten me?


dottirofhod
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Jul 18, 2018, 12:34 AM

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Post #6 of 28 (6018 views)
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Re: [steve walker] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Replying to Paul in post 2.




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steve walker
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Jul 18, 2018, 12:41 AM

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Post #7 of 28 (6006 views)
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Re: [dottirofhod] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Boreham Wood have been up for sale since I was a teenager and I will have a bus pass soon... or so it seems... they even advertised in the Non League Paper so I hardly think they are "bankrolled" to any extent .... okay I see what you mean... we agree with that one :)


(This post was edited by steve walker on Jul 18, 2018, 12:43 AM)


paulh66
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Jul 18, 2018, 1:42 AM

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Post #8 of 28 (5966 views)
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Re: [steve walker] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, wasn't suggesting the Wood are bankrolled, hence my choice of words. With such abysmal crowds they do indeed seem reliant on the Arsenal deal and the profits from the academies/community programmes (or are these supposed to be not for profit ventures?). Works well for them now but wondered if it might cause them an issue with FFP or any other regulation if they got into the EFL. Either way, probably a bad example to use if it muddies the waters!

The point I was trying to make is that the top of the non-league game seems in danger of overheating, and now of course Salford are pushing that envelope harder than anyone. Only two can go up so some are going to be disappointed and at some point will need to readjust, perhaps drastically, and those who do go up may have quite a challenge adapting to the demands of FFP once they get there.

So glad we got out of it in May because, if we hadn't, we'd have probably been stuck there for years in that climate, whereas now we should be OK in the EFL (touch wood).


ladderman
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Jul 18, 2018, 2:59 PM

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Post #9 of 28 (5090 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This kind of unsustainable spending has been going on since Rushden & Diamonds came on the scene. There's a good argument (one that's often aired on the Conf message board) that they ruined non-league football. Certainly they showed that chucking massive sums of money at it the team can achieve success in the short & medium terms - and who cares about the long term?
I'd like to know what happened to Salford's plans to develop talent.
As for BW, I can't see why their business model would fall foul of any FFP rules. The community and academy programmes provide work for players (clearly it's a numbers game, it's not about high quality coaching outside of their elite youth team) which allows them to compete with the genuine full-time clubs. How successful they'd be without Arsenal is probably the big question, but they don't appear to be going down the Chelsea/Man City route of developing their own second stadium.


paulh66
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Jul 18, 2018, 5:34 PM

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Post #10 of 28 (4814 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Adam Rooney from Aberdeen being reported as the next high profile Salford signing by the Scottish media, again 4K a week being touted.

Interesting to hear Gary Neville opining to the parliamentary group about the sale of Wembley and other sources of revenue that should be targeted instead - levy on agents' fees, reduced EPL prize money etc. 70m is a pittance for football, you can buy a full back for that, he said. Not sure if that means a Salford bid is imminent for Trippier..


oftenscore6
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Jul 19, 2018, 1:09 PM

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Post #11 of 28 (4269 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

AFC Fylde have developed an excellent conference and catering area at their new ground (and the bar's pretty good too). They claimed to be self-funding in the Conference North because their hospitality and non-football business. I'm sure they weren't in getting there whilst at Kellamergh Park, and whether they can sustain higher levels may be questionable, but looking purely at attendance size can give a false impression about how they're funded.



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spen666
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Jul 19, 2018, 2:47 PM

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Post #12 of 28 (4093 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
This kind of unsustainable spending has been going on since Rushden & Diamonds came on the scene. There's a good argument (one that's often aired on the Conf message board) that they ruined non-league football......



You can go a lot further back than R&D

Romford went belly up trying to get into football league as did many other clubs in the days before automatic promotion. They were al spending cash they did not have chasing that elusive dream. A never ending spiral of spending driving up costs and wages in football


ladderman
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Jul 19, 2018, 8:35 PM

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Post #13 of 28 (3779 views)
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Re: [spen666] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

True. But automatic promotion has massively increased the trend.

Though Aberdeen whining the can't compete with Salford did make me smile https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44890774


Haywain
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Jul 19, 2018, 11:22 PM

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Post #14 of 28 (3600 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
True. But automatic promotion has massively increased the trend.

Though Aberdeen whining the can't compete with Salford did make me smile https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44890774

Ah, but don't you know that Scottish football is of a much higher standard than English football? Or so they think, up there.



Haywain - following the Hatters through thin and thin.

(This post was edited by Haywain on Jul 19, 2018, 11:25 PM)


buncranaboy
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Jul 19, 2018, 11:32 PM

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Post #15 of 28 (3579 views)
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Re: [Haywain] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is that the sound of PaulC harrumphing ?


kirby knitters
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Jul 20, 2018, 8:04 AM

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Post #16 of 28 (3343 views)
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Re: [buncranaboy] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I notice there has been a spat on twitter between Accrington owner Andy Holt and Salford City co-owner Gary Neville with Neville accusing Holt of trying to franchise the game in the EFL. Any idea what he means by such a statement?


leohoenig
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Jul 20, 2018, 9:33 AM

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Post #17 of 28 (3255 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44894821

The accusation is that Andy Holt thinks it is wrong for a club to use outside finance to buy success. He points to Chelsea, Blackburn and Man City, all of which used outside finance to buy success.

The catch to the argument is that while Holt is running a tight ship at Accrington, it would not still be operating without the funding from his predessor, Ilyus Khan.

Kieran Maguire from Liverpool University has done a long series of tweets with some account details of Salford City and associated companies https://twitter.com/...181213598789633?s=20

It is a series that raises more questions than answers



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paulh66
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Jul 20, 2018, 12:03 PM

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Post #18 of 28 (3125 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Which, in a roundabout way, is the point I was trying to get to. We all know that football clubs have to develop non-footballing income but where (if anywhere) is/should be the tipping point? In other words the point at which non-footballing income is deemed to give a club an 'unfair' advantage?

For example, everyone seems comfortable that the likes of Fylde and Boreham Wood can compete above their natural status because of their other sources of income, but maybe less comfortable when FGR, Salford etc do likewise. Is it just because of the scale of it or, perhaps, is it just envy?

I come at this whole issue from the viewpoint of one who has no problem with any club who generates any amount of non-footballing income - whether that be a conference centre or a lucrative tie up with, say, a global brand - or who are owned by sugar daddies who plough in vast amounts of their own (non-footballing) income into the club. Those clubs are often pariahs and everyone wants them to lose but, so long as there's nothing dodgy attached to it, to me that's all just part of the vast range of emotions that makes the game so appealing. So, although I'd very much like Salford to fall short on the pitch, I've no problem at all with what they're doing.

But then there's the bump in the road. A financial model that can propel you to the brink of the EFL without breaking any rules can suddenly become a problem once you reach the EFL because, nowadays, the EFL works to a different set of financial rules to non-league. But this doesn't seem to be having any effect in deterring the nouveau riche non-league clubs who, more than ever before, seem to be up for chasing the dream. This is why I think football at this level may be in danger of overheating like never before.

I go back to my own club. We're very well run, get decent crowds for our level and have limited non-footballing income. If we hadn't gone up in May, this well-run, well-supported football club (not a conference centre, not part of a global brand, just a well-run, well-supported football club) would have struggled to compete with many of the clubs financed by significant sums of non-footballing income. This would have carried serious implications for us going forward. Yet now, even though it'll obviously cost us more to be competitive at a higher level, that threat is significantly reduced thanks in part to EFL regulations. That's a very fine line, and the implications of landing on the wrong side of it don't sit comfortably with me.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jul 20, 2018, 12:15 PM)


bspittles
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Jul 20, 2018, 1:16 PM

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Post #19 of 28 (2985 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

@KieranMaguire on Twitter posted a thread about Salford's finances this morning. There's lots of information from their latest accounts included in his posts.

https://twitter.com/.../1020182022940123137

Including:

Salford lost almost 600,000 in 2016/17, needed to be bankrolled by the Class Of '92 and their overseas investor friends to survive.

Salford's balance sheet shows the club is technically insolvent as liabilities exceed assets, relies on interest free loans of 655,000 from Project 92 Ltd.

Project 92 owe nearly 3m to the bank, 1m to directors and a further 1m to one of the shareholders, who could that be?

Looks as if Project 92 Ltd lost 340,000 in 2016/17.

Looks as if Salford City Ltd don't own the ground on which they play football.


paulh66
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Jul 20, 2018, 1:28 PM

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Post #20 of 28 (2941 views)
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Re: [bspittles] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Although those tweets have gossip value, they only tell us what we all know anyway, albeit in a bit more detail. Bottom line is, so long as the investors/owners are good for the money and remain committed to the project, these numbers are irrelevant. If they reach the EFL I expect they'll just restructure the finances (to the extent they need to) in a way that enables them to meet the regulations e.g. convert debt into equity.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jul 20, 2018, 1:30 PM)


Steve (MUFC)
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Jul 20, 2018, 10:44 PM

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Post #21 of 28 (2477 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They also have a clever model whereby they employ staff to work full time in their academy then coach/play in the first team.



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thowdreds
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Jul 29, 2018, 8:48 AM

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Post #22 of 28 (1670 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44894821

The accusation is that Andy Holt thinks it is wrong for a club to use outside finance to buy success. He points to Chelsea, Blackburn and Man City, all of which used outside finance to buy success.

The catch to the argument is that while Holt is running a tight ship at Accrington, it would not still be operating without the funding from his predessor, Ilyus Khan.

Kieran Maguire from Liverpool University has done a long series of tweets with some account details of Salford City and associated companies https://twitter.com/...181213598789633?s=20

It is a series that raises more questions than answers


In Reply To

Ilyas Khan put the money in to save the club because of his predecessor, Eric Whalley's, overspending. Another man who got carried away with the dream. I understand that all that has now been cleared and Accrington Stanley have been operating at a small profit for the last few years thanks to Andy Holt's financial management.


leohoenig
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Jul 29, 2018, 12:21 PM

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Post #23 of 28 (1385 views)
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Re: [thowdreds] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I cannot dispute this
Was it Khan or Whalley that was in charge when the club moved into the football league?
It certainly appeared that they were funded, (if not on Salford's scale), both to get into the league and in their early seasons at league level
The overspending mentioned is in itself funding, albeit deferred. Had it not been for the arrival of Ilyus Khan, the club may well have one under again.

The question has always been one of whether or not it is right for an outside investor to put money into his favourite football club. The only way one can seriously manage a return on investment is to put money into a club in League-1 or Championship and sell when they are in the Premier League.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com


Cowden Andy
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Jul 29, 2018, 1:09 PM

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Post #24 of 28 (1315 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
True. But automatic promotion has massively increased the trend.

Though Aberdeen whining the can't compete with Salford did make me smile https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44890774


I think Aberdeen actually done well out of it a player going on the slide and being on the bench more than he started and they picked up a 400k transfer fee while getting him off the wage bill.


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 29, 2018, 3:28 PM

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Post #25 of 28 (1121 views)
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Re: [Cowden Andy] Danny Lloyd [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I imagine they could compete but chose not to (it does seem a good deal for them) , and the pic moaning was to placate fans.

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