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Yeading89
Junior Team Regular

Jun 9, 2018, 11:57 AM

Posts: 31
Location: Milton Keynes
Team(s): hayes&yeading

Post #1 of 49 (7405 views)
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I see discussions are under way yet again over the subject of programmes. I hate the modern programmes to be honest.All gloss adverts and packing and EXPENSIVE. Why can't clubs just hand out an A4 sheet on entrance giving the necessary requirements / Or go back to the four page paper efforts that were so superior,ie Brigg Sports/Ford United layouts that gave you everything and immaculately laid out.


shimtoan
First Team Sub


Jun 9, 2018, 12:21 PM

Posts: 1101
Location: Dunkirk, Nottingham
Team(s): Dunkirk

Post #2 of 49 (7378 views)
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Re: [Yeading89] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Football League clubs no longer need to produce them



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


Thecranewife
Junior Team Sub

Jun 9, 2018, 12:58 PM

Posts: 13
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Post #3 of 49 (7326 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just like to give a big shout out to my clubs programme Godalming Town Fc . It’s excellent and includes a number o features, Cherry Red Records review of an album and a feature called ‘Also from there’, which provides a short biog of a famous person who lived in the area of the club we are playing. If anybody wants to view the programme it’s availlable from the clubs website.


Kentishexile
Junior Team Sub

Jun 9, 2018, 5:26 PM

Posts: 26
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Post #4 of 49 (6997 views)
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Re: [Yeading89] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Any programme whatever the size and content is to me part of the experience...I can't see too many clubs wanting to drop it...


Dr Love
First Team Star


Jun 9, 2018, 7:37 PM

Posts: 2718
Location: Berks.
Team(s): Halifax Town

Post #5 of 49 (6772 views)
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Re: [Kentishexile] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Seeing some of the programmes around which seem to suggest they put together the bare minimum they can get away with, I wouldn't be too surprised to see quite a few willing to drop it. For too many people it isn't part of the experience these days.


Kentishexile
Junior Team Sub

Jun 9, 2018, 11:33 PM

Posts: 26
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Post #6 of 49 (6452 views)
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Re: [Dr Love] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm old...the first game I saw had a 4 page programme...printed on a duplicator...now can be done in minutes as per requirements...there's probably no money to be made but fans groundhoppers and collecters will still want them
..


Lillywhite
Youth Team Star

Jun 10, 2018, 7:09 AM

Posts: 371
Location: Welland Valley
Team(s): AFC Rushden & Diamonds, Tottenham Hotspur

Post #7 of 49 (6275 views)
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Re: [Kentishexile] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm old...the first game I saw had a 4 page programme..


Spurs programme up to August 1961 was 4 pages printed as one sheet both sides and once sold had to be folded. Crammed with all relevant information for the match including the 1-11 for both teams and not an advert in site.
What we have today is effectively a Matchday Magazine with most information generally obtainable from other media sources.
The PA at most grounds gives you the starting eleven for both teams and most clubs issue a one page team sheet with substitutes for the day, after the submission to the referee, and many fans have access via smart phones to the club’s twitter feed for this information.
I havn’t bothered with purchasing programmes for a few years now despite previously being an avid collector.


Old Glove
Youth Team Sub

Jun 10, 2018, 9:31 AM

Posts: 142
Location: Bristol
Team(s):

Post #8 of 49 (6111 views)
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Re: [Lillywhite] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I might be coming from a position of bias here as I'm a collector of programmes, specifically Yeovil Town ones. Have around 1500 of them at home in bookcases etc.

I'm also secretary of a Step 5 club and this summer, have taken on the mantle of programme editor and producer. Thought I was going to be out of a job immediately on hearing this news but I'll still be doing a programme this year, regardless of whether I need to or not.

First up, programme advertising covers the cost of printing the programme, I'd say. Our programme will be a 28 or 32 page one this year, and will cost around £500 to print for the whole season. That's 5 x 1 page ads to cover it, 10 x half page ads or a combination of the two. So any sales we make are sheer profit to the club, probably another £500 on top again.

Secondly, it helps you get services from other people that you might have to otherwise pay for. Quite often, we will approach a local business who might have a service/product we could use and that would help us.... we can then offer them a programme ad in return.

Thirdly, it's for the supporter visiting our ground. We had a Groundhop game last season and having read both this and other forums, I know full well that some fans won't visit a ground that doesn't produce a programme. For us, that's fair enough and reason in itself to produce a programme; we want to welcome everyone to our ground and make them feel welcome.

When you add all three things together, it's a no brainer and why I can't honestly see us stopping the production of them.


(This post was edited by Old Glove on Jun 10, 2018, 9:32 AM)


Lillywhite
Youth Team Star

Jun 10, 2018, 9:58 AM

Posts: 371
Location: Welland Valley
Team(s): AFC Rushden & Diamonds, Tottenham Hotspur

Post #9 of 49 (6049 views)
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Re: [Old Glove] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think Old Glove that what you say makes sense provided you get a decent sale. I have no doubt that my club, having recently been promoted to Step 3 for the forthcoming season, will continue it’s printed copy besides being able to purchase, at a reduced cost, a couple of days before the game through the Magzter website.
However since the days of multiple subs the matchday programme now contains a lengthy squad list of both clubs, which is not always up to date.
I appreciate that with a maximum 16 man squad declaration an hour or so before kickoff there is no way around this issue hence the need for the hastily prepared onsite single page team sheet produced by the home club’s secretary which nevertheless I appreciate.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 10, 2018, 10:08 AM

Posts: 17167
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #10 of 49 (6039 views)
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Re: [Lillywhite] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Brechin City are a good example of what can be achieved with a teamsheet. They'd stopped doing programmes the season I went (16/17) but the full colour, neatly produced teamsheets they handed out free include an editorial, manager's notes, club news, upcoming fixtures, league table etc etc. Frankly, more reading matter on a single sheet of A4 than some clubs manage in over a dozen pages, AND the actual line ups too.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 10, 2018, 10:16 AM)


GRIFFON
First Team Star

Jun 10, 2018, 11:50 AM

Posts: 1746
Location: Sunny Nunny
Team(s): Nuneaton Griff

Post #11 of 49 (5813 views)
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Re: [paulh66] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We have been doing forty pages for a couple of years, a mix of editorial and adverts. Next week we meet a potential sponsor of the programme and if we get that onboard we will be laughing. We print and put them together ourselves and make a small profit added to by a Match and Ball Sponsor for every issue.

Having said all that I realise that not every club has a person(s) who have the ability to write fresh articles or indeed to produce anything that is worth the money. These are clubs (not through their own fault) who get programmes a bad name and put people off buying one. Last season one club was selling for a pound an issue that contained ninety five per cent of the pages that had not been altered or updated for some three seasons or more, no wonder the locals never bought one!

Personally I have collected for most of my life and have thousands one per club, as I have said on here before a programme is also a time capsule and could be extremely valuable to Family Historians in the future so donate a few from your club each season to the local library. Here in Nuneaton they have bound volumes of Nuneaton Borough/Town on the shelves.


citamo
Junior Team Regular

Jun 10, 2018, 12:18 PM

Posts: 34
Location: Middlesbrough
Team(s): Workington, Woking, Marske Utd, Stranraer

Post #12 of 49 (5750 views)
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Re: [paulh66] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Brechin City are a good example of what can be achieved with a teamsheet. They'd stopped doing programmes the season I went (16/17) but the full colour, neatly produced teamsheets they handed out free include an editorial, manager's notes, club news, upcoming fixtures, league table etc etc. Frankly, more reading matter on a single sheet of A4 than some clubs manage in over a dozen pages, AND the actual line ups too.


I haven’t been to Brechin City but if they renamed the teamsheet “Official Programme”, would that keep most people happy? Just a thought.


Lillywhite
Youth Team Star

Jun 10, 2018, 1:22 PM

Posts: 371
Location: Welland Valley
Team(s): AFC Rushden & Diamonds, Tottenham Hotspur

Post #13 of 49 (5619 views)
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Re: [citamo] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The other issue with identifying players from each side is that for the Premiership through the EFL down to the National League is that all clubs register the players and each is given a squad number and their name on the back of the shirts. The match day programme is useful in this respect. However from Step 2 and below in Non League Football the starting players are generally numbered 1-11 (although rule changes from last season now includes 12-19) and unless you recognise these players then you have absolutely no idea who they are without reference to a team sheet. The squad lists in match day programme aren’t any use to help identify the players.


spen666
Youth Team Sub

Jun 10, 2018, 2:51 PM

Posts: 168
Location:
Team(s):

Post #14 of 49 (5443 views)
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Re: [Old Glove] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I might be coming from a position of bias here as I'm a collector of programmes, specifically Yeovil Town ones. Have around 1500 of them at home in bookcases etc.

I'm also secretary of a Step 5 club and this summer, have taken on the mantle of programme editor and producer. Thought I was going to be out of a job immediately on hearing this news but I'll still be doing a programme this year, regardless of whether I need to or not.

First up, programme advertising covers the cost of printing the programme, I'd say. Our programme will be a 28 or 32 page one this year, and will cost around £500 to print for the whole season. That's 5 x 1 page ads to cover it, 10 x half page ads or a combination of the two. So any sales we make are sheer profit to the club, probably another £500 on top again.

Secondly, it helps you get services from other people that you might have to otherwise pay for. Quite often, we will approach a local business who might have a service/product we could use and that would help us.... we can then offer them a programme ad in return.

Thirdly, it's for the supporter visiting our ground. We had a Groundhop game last season and having read both this and other forums, I know full well that some fans won't visit a ground that doesn't produce a programme. For us, that's fair enough and reason in itself to produce a programme; we want to welcome everyone to our ground and make them feel welcome.

When you add all three things together, it's a no brainer and why I can't honestly see us stopping the production of them.



Just because your step 5 club can find a volunteer to produce the programme and are able to sell enough advertising to make it profitable, it does not follow that other clubs can


Steelback
First Team Star


Jun 10, 2018, 9:24 PM

Posts: 2595
Location: Hampshire
Team(s): Northamptonshire Steelbacks : Peterborough United : San Francisco 49ers

Post #15 of 49 (5055 views)
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Re: [paulh66] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Brechin City are a good example of what can be achieved with a teamsheet. They'd stopped doing programmes the season I went (16/17) but the full colour, neatly produced teamsheets they handed out free include an editorial, manager's notes, club news, upcoming fixtures, league table etc etc. Frankly, more reading matter on a single sheet of A4 than some clubs manage in over a dozen pages, AND the actual line ups too.


Brechin City issued a full programme this past season in the Championship. The chap selling them said he sold out most games.



'Little' Northamptonshire Steelbacks 2013 & 2016 T20 CHAMPIONS

(This post was edited by Steelback on Jun 10, 2018, 9:24 PM)


steveking
Reserve Team Regular

Jun 10, 2018, 10:26 PM

Posts: 658
Location: Surbiton
Team(s): Ware, Everton, Kingstonian, Leicester, Portsmouth

Post #16 of 49 (4951 views)
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Re: [spen666] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I might be coming from a position of bias here as I'm a collector of programmes, specifically Yeovil Town ones. Have around 1500 of them at home in bookcases etc.

I'm also secretary of a Step 5 club and this summer, have taken on the mantle of programme editor and producer. Thought I was going to be out of a job immediately on hearing this news but I'll still be doing a programme this year, regardless of whether I need to or not.

First up, programme advertising covers the cost of printing the programme, I'd say. Our programme will be a 28 or 32 page one this year, and will cost around £500 to print for the whole season. That's 5 x 1 page ads to cover it, 10 x half page ads or a combination of the two. So any sales we make are sheer profit to the club, probably another £500 on top again.

Secondly, it helps you get services from other people that you might have to otherwise pay for. Quite often, we will approach a local business who might have a service/product we could use and that would help us.... we can then offer them a programme ad in return.

Thirdly, it's for the supporter visiting our ground. We had a Groundhop game last season and having read both this and other forums, I know full well that some fans won't visit a ground that doesn't produce a programme. For us, that's fair enough and reason in itself to produce a programme; we want to welcome everyone to our ground and make them feel welcome.

When you add all three things together, it's a no brainer and why I can't honestly see us stopping the production of them.



Just because your step 5 club can find a volunteer to produce the programme and are able to sell enough advertising to make it profitable, it does not follow that other clubs can

I'm more surprised by the idea that printing a programme of 28 to 32 pages will cost just £500 for the season.


Old Glove
Youth Team Sub

Jun 10, 2018, 10:35 PM

Posts: 142
Location: Bristol
Team(s):

Post #17 of 49 (4932 views)
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Re: [steveking] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I might be coming from a position of bias here as I'm a collector of programmes, specifically Yeovil Town ones. Have around 1500 of them at home in bookcases etc.

I'm also secretary of a Step 5 club and this summer, have taken on the mantle of programme editor and producer. Thought I was going to be out of a job immediately on hearing this news but I'll still be doing a programme this year, regardless of whether I need to or not.

First up, programme advertising covers the cost of printing the programme, I'd say. Our programme will be a 28 or 32 page one this year, and will cost around £500 to print for the whole season. That's 5 x 1 page ads to cover it, 10 x half page ads or a combination of the two. So any sales we make are sheer profit to the club, probably another £500 on top again.

Secondly, it helps you get services from other people that you might have to otherwise pay for. Quite often, we will approach a local business who might have a service/product we could use and that would help us.... we can then offer them a programme ad in return.

Thirdly, it's for the supporter visiting our ground. We had a Groundhop game last season and having read both this and other forums, I know full well that some fans won't visit a ground that doesn't produce a programme. For us, that's fair enough and reason in itself to produce a programme; we want to welcome everyone to our ground and make them feel welcome.

When you add all three things together, it's a no brainer and why I can't honestly see us stopping the production of them.



Just because your step 5 club can find a volunteer to produce the programme and are able to sell enough advertising to make it profitable, it does not follow that other clubs can

I'm more surprised by the idea that printing a programme of 28 to 32 pages will cost just £500 for the season.


Spen - I'm not saying that it does follow that other clubs can. I can only talk for our club; it worlks for us in those ways. Wouldn't never criticise clubs for not doing a programme - it would be silly if it wasn't cost effective.

Steve - we have a deal with a local printer. He prints us 25 copies a game at a cost of a pound a copy. He does it cheap as (a) he knows me and (b) he gets a page advert on the back cover. We play 19 league games x £25 per game = £475 plus then there's cup games too.

Maybe £500 is pushing it a bit fine, I'd expect 2 or 3 home cup games this year so possibly £525-£550 is more realistic.


Biscuitman
Reserve Team Star


Jun 11, 2018, 10:11 PM

Posts: 833
Location: Norway
Team(s): Reading, Fredrikstad, Rangers

Post #18 of 49 (4396 views)
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Re: [Old Glove] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's a sad day I think. Do anyone actually know how the different clubs voted on this?



Feel free to visit my blog (in norwegian mind you):
http://vikinghopper.blogg.no/


spen666
Youth Team Sub

Jun 12, 2018, 6:05 AM

Posts: 168
Location:
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Post #19 of 49 (4183 views)
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In Reply To
It's a sad day I think. Do anyone actually know how the different clubs voted on this?


It's a sad day to allow a club to choose to do what is best for the club?

That sounds like freedom of choice to me & something I applaud.

No one is stopping clubs issuing programmes, merely now clubs can choose what they do regarding programmes.

There seem to be a lot of people who want their will imposed on football clubs, irrespective of whether the club can afford to financially or time wise produce a programme.
Also, when I last checked the laws of the game, football was about two teams of 11 players playing on a pitch. No team has ever won a cup competition or a league because of production of a programme.

If people are so fixated with buying a printed paper product, then perhaps a season ticket to Waterstones would be more appropriate


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 12, 2018, 9:59 AM

Posts: 7653
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None

Post #20 of 49 (3957 views)
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Re: [spen666] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Any idea which clubs will not be issuing?
My guess is that Forest Green will be amongst them. Dale Vince will have a chance to pull the 'green' card claiming the club are not issuing to reduce their carbon footprint, whilst moving the club to a remote location, requiring people to drive to or use public transport.
Also clubs who haven't paid their printers will probably cease programme production.



jrev61


spen666
Youth Team Sub

Jun 12, 2018, 10:17 AM

Posts: 168
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Post #21 of 49 (3938 views)
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In Reply To
Any idea which clubs will not be issuing?
My guess is that Forest Green will be amongst them. Dale Vince will have a chance to pull the 'green' card claiming the club are not issuing to reduce their carbon footprint, whilst moving the club to a remote location, requiring people to drive to or use public transport.
Also clubs who haven't paid their printers will probably cease programme production.



Pure speculation, but I am guessing it will have a slow uptake until one club announce some super wonderful emperors new clothes digital replacement idea


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 12, 2018, 10:19 PM

Posts: 17167
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #22 of 49 (3517 views)
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Re: [spen666] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Does anyone know when programme issuing became compulsory? For as long as I can remember FL and higher level non-league clubs always issued, though I don't know if they were compelled to or if it was just the done thing in the absence of any other regular means of communicating to fans directly. But when I started watching lower level non league in the early-mid 1980s (mainly North West Counties) there were several clubs who routinely didn't issue - think it was late 80s or maybe early 90s when they were finally required to.

So I'm wondering if programmes only became compulsory as and when the various leagues began accepting sponsorship, the knock on effect being that league sponsors wanted to have their adverts in programmes. In which case it'd make perfect sense to remove that requirement if, as in the case of the EFL, the sponsors are now happy for clubs to use other media to carry their adverts.


Ashtree RockBee
First Team Star


Jun 25, 2018, 2:12 PM

Posts: 1912
Location: Ashford, Middlesex
Team(s): Ashford Town (Middlesex), Bognor Regis Town, Brentford

Post #23 of 49 (2819 views)
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Re: [paulh66] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A post by Rob Healy on the Combined Counties forum states "the issue of paper programmes will be optional next season, along with the alternative of producing a programme on-line", as agreed in the Combined Counties' AGM.


E&E Fred
Youth Team Regular


Jun 25, 2018, 5:04 PM

Posts: 263
Location: Fetcham, Surrey
Team(s): Epsom & Ewell FC

Post #24 of 49 (2550 views)
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Re: [Ashtree RockBee] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can confirm that this was agreed at the AGM last Saturday. In my opinion a very sad day and we might as well be a park league if this is the case as it looks amateurish in my opinion, although I should confirm that all clubs still have to produce something for each match, although it can be an online issue now.

I don't buy the idea that it costs clubs a vast amount of money, when their playing budgets continue to mushroom in most cases. Although I too think that £500 is ambitious, I will concede that we produce larger programmes and often produce more than the 25 quoted earlier. In fact, we have only just dropped from producing 50 or more on a matchday as they used to sell quite well. Even if it were £2k though it's a drop in the ocean compared to the other annual costs most clubs face.

However, I understand this is the 21st century that not everyone wants a programme and that clubs should have a choice. I just hope that all leagues produce a document at the start of each season that advises which clubs are regular "paper" producers, which are occasional and which are only issuing online. That way, people can consult those documents before choosing which game to watch if they are at a loose end. In fact, this should be clearly advertised on each League's website in my opinion.



Last Ground (581) - Cardiff City FC - 21st April 2018
Last Cup won - Combined Counties League Cup - 2013
Twitter - @EandERich
Website: www.eefconline.co.uk
Website: www.isthmianarchive.co.uk

(This post was edited by E&E Fred on Jun 25, 2018, 5:05 PM)


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 25, 2018, 6:12 PM

Posts: 17167
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #25 of 49 (2402 views)
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Re: [E&E Fred] programmes [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Out of interest, since when has programme producing actually been compulsory at this level? I may be mistaken but thought it was a relatively recent thing (1980s being relatively recent in my book), kowtowing to the demands of sponsorship rather than for any more noble reason.

I agree with your last paragraph, though, and don't dispute the point at the heart of your second para. But it's worth noting that E&E's programme is a superb publication and clearly a labour of love - and having watched far more football at steps 5/6 in recent years than can possibly be good for me, I'd say you're in a tiny minority in that respect. For many, even leaving aside the cost argument, I suspect it's a chore, and that has become increasingly apparent in the quality and content of the matchday offerings you see these days.

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