Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 



  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: All Other Football Interests: All other football:
Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds!

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jan 27, 2018, 8:10 PM

Posts: 2476
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #1 of 51 (13742 views)
Shortcut
Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! Can't Post or Reply Privately

I got to thinking while enthroned earlier (as you do) ~ What if footie in Europe had been properly formalised and played as a sport in (much) earlier times, what leagues would there have been (for the purposes of ease, using those clubs that we now have had as if they'd all had 100-250-500 etc. years subtracted from their founding dates) to populate them with, and under what their contemporary names would they have been playing?

For this musing, we basically ignore all the many internecine wars and only work to the political changes as they happen.



Professional cretin.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 27, 2018, 9:27 PM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #2 of 51 (13721 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I got to thinking while enthroned earlier (as you do) ~ What if footie in Europe had been properly formalised and played as a sport in (much) earlier times, what leagues would there have been (for the purposes of ease, using those clubs that we now have had as if they'd all had 100-250-500 etc. years subtracted from their founding dates) to populate them with, and under what their contemporary names would they have been playing?

For this musing, we basically ignore all the many internecine wars and only work to the political changes as they happen.



Are you talking just about clubs or countries?


oxpete
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jan 27, 2018, 11:33 PM

Posts: 4427
Location: Oxford
Team(s): Pompey

Post #3 of 51 (13679 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I got to thinking while enthroned earlier (as you do) ~ What if footie in Europe had been properly formalised and played as a sport in (much) earlier times, what leagues would there have been (for the purposes of ease, using those clubs that we now have had as if they'd all had 100-250-500 etc. years subtracted from their founding dates) to populate them with, and under what their contemporary names would they have been playing?

For this musing, we basically ignore all the many internecine wars and only work to the political changes as they happen.


I don't know about Europe, but had organised football in Britain taken root before the Industrial Revolution, I'd expect the likes of York, Shrewsbury, Chester, Cambridge, Norwich and other such places that had important status pre-1750 to have a stronger footballing history than they have now. Sports in Britain that have a strong pre-1750 history (cricket, horse racing, golf, hunting etc) tend to still to this day have a more rural following and presence (as well as a more landed-gentry history/following - these sports require much more space and land for a start).

Even now, football in Britain is dominated by clubs from 19th century industrial towns and cities, which grew up at the same time that football was formalised: compare the successful football histories of relatively small towns like Preston, Blackburn or Burnley with that of places like Oxford, Cambridge or Bristol.

I've read that the only two English league sides to have been football league champions since 1888 that aren't from the country's large 19th century industrial metropolitan conurbations are Portsmouth and Ipswich Town. In Scotland, it's only Aberdeen (which is the only example I can see of a club winning such status on the back of the wealth generated locally by modern industry - in this case oil). Proof were it needed that MK Dons are destined to win nothing, ever!

As for a club that could've rivalled Real Madrid over one thousand years ago, I nominate Winchester Castle FC of the Hampshire Premier League, managed by Alfred The Great!


(This post was edited by oxpete on Jan 28, 2018, 12:00 AM)


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jan 28, 2018, 5:02 AM

Posts: 2476
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #4 of 51 (13621 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just the clubs.

It's a question which I suppose is raised due to the major political events of our lifetimes, like German reunification and the dissolutions of the U.S.S.R. & Yugoslavia. The similar Catalonia thread of a month or two past has also brought the idea forward again.

When towns/cities with footie teams are moved into or out of different countries, like Stettin/Szczecin and Strasbourg/Strasburg is the bit which piques my interest, alongside how they'd have to move leagues given the political changes mooted.

Example: - What teams have we that would have populated (say) a Burgundian league or an East Prussian league, etc.



Professional cretin.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 28, 2018, 7:36 AM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #5 of 51 (13605 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I started a thread a few years back about teams never going home
http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/...ng%20home%20;#606075
I suppose the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire(Constantinople) would’ve had a massive club until crusaders & then the Ottomans both captured the city.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 28, 2018, 8:04 AM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #6 of 51 (13603 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I challenge anyone to top this town, for the potential amount of leagues a football team could’ve played in since the start of the 20th Century. Plus the name changes the club would have to have made.
Upto 1918: Lemberg(Autro-Hungarian Empire). Upto 1939: Lwów(Poland) 1939-1941 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1941-1944 Lemberg(Nazi General Government) 1944-1991 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1991-Present Lvov(Ukraine).


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Jan 28, 2018, 8:06 AM)


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 28, 2018, 10:05 AM

Posts: 7891
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None

Post #7 of 51 (13571 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Wikipedia calls it Lviv, Soccerway calls it L'viv. I think UEFA called it Lwiw when Euro 2012 games were played there.
The English version after 1918 seems to have been Lvov, I'm sure the Germans still say Lemberg.



jrev61


mip
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 28, 2018, 10:15 AM

Posts: 9850
Location: Odense
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #8 of 51 (13570 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I challenge anyone to top this town, for the potential amount of leagues a football team could’ve played in since the start of the 20th Century. Plus the name changes the club would have to have made.
Upto 1918: Lemberg(Autro-Hungarian Empire). Upto 1939: Lwów(Poland) 1939-1941 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1941-1944 Lemberg(Nazi General Government) 1944-1991 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1991-Present Lvov(Ukraine).


And in the real world Shakhtar Donetsk played in Lvov for two and a half season.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 28, 2018, 10:37 AM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #9 of 51 (13563 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrev61] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Wikipedia calls it Lviv, Soccerway calls it L'viv. I think UEFA called it Lwiw when Euro 2012 games were played there.
The English version after 1918 seems to have been Lvov, I'm sure the Germans still say Lemberg.



Lvov is the Ukrainian spelling of the town.


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jan 28, 2018, 2:35 PM

Posts: 2476
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #10 of 51 (13524 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I challenge anyone to top this town, for the potential amount of leagues a football team could’ve played in since the start of the 20th Century. Plus the name changes the club would have to have made.
Upto 1918: Lemberg(Autro-Hungarian Empire). Upto 1939: Lwów(Poland) 1939-1941 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1941-1944 Lemberg(Nazi General Government) 1944-1991 Lviv(Soviet Union) 1991-Present Lvov(Ukraine).


So, yes. Exactly this.

Who would have been their opponents in each case - allowing a set number of years difference i.e Take real 1888 to be imaginarily 1838 for example?



Professional cretin.


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jan 28, 2018, 3:44 PM

Posts: 3123
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton, Mablethorpe

Post #11 of 51 (13509 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I doubt there would have been German or Italian dominance at club and national level if football had taken hold before these two countries existed.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 28, 2018, 4:59 PM

Posts: 8287
Location:
Team(s):

Post #12 of 51 (13484 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Wikipedia calls it Lviv, Soccerway calls it L'viv. I think UEFA called it Lwiw when Euro 2012 games were played there.
The English version after 1918 seems to have been Lvov, I'm sure the Germans still say Lemberg.



Lvov is the Ukrainian spelling of the town.


Surely Lvov is the Russian (Львов) version, and Lviv is the Ukrainian (Львів)?


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #13 of 51 (13452 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Richard Rundle] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Wikipedia calls it Lviv, Soccerway calls it L'viv. I think UEFA called it Lwiw when Euro 2012 games were played there.
The English version after 1918 seems to have been Lvov, I'm sure the Germans still say Lemberg.



Lvov is the Ukrainian spelling of the town.


Surely Lvov is the Russian (Львов) version, and Lviv is the Ukrainian (Львів)?



You are correct. My mistakeBlush


aiwa
Reserve Team Regular

Jan 28, 2018, 6:48 PM

Posts: 646
Location: Birmingham
Team(s):

Post #14 of 51 (13452 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I got to thinking while enthroned earlier (as you do) ~ What if footie in Europe had been properly formalised and played as a sport in (much) earlier times, what leagues would there have been (for the purposes of ease, using those clubs that we now have had as if they'd all had 100-250-500 etc. years subtracted from their founding dates) to populate them with, and under what their contemporary names would they have been playing?

For this musing, we basically ignore all the many internecine wars and only work to the political changes as they happen.


Without a method of reasonably quick travel, football in the UK would have been very localised with a series of City leagues. Maybe there'd be an annual inter-league championship held in the middle of the country, structured a bit like the World Cup Finals.


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 28, 2018, 6:55 PM

Posts: 7891
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None

Post #15 of 51 (13447 views)
Shortcut
Re: [aiwa] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Who could forget Burgundy's shock World Cup win in 1476.
The French were so upset after their 12.11 defeat (both goalkeepers fell victim to archers in the crowd), that they invaded the following year.Smile



jrev61


Chris1963
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 28, 2018, 8:11 PM

Posts: 6740
Location: North London
Team(s): Oxford United / Groundhopper

Post #16 of 51 (13415 views)
Shortcut
Re: [oxpete] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I g


I've read that the only two English league sides to have been football league champions since 1888 that aren't from the country's large 19th century industrial metropolitan conurbations are Portsmouth and Ipswich Town.


I expect that the source you read was published before Leicester City won the title in 2016?

Portsmouth, by the way, was probably one of the most important places in the UK at a time when both the Royal and Merchant Navy were the biggest employers in the country (up to the early part of the 19th century.)


Swindon Addick
Reserve Team Regular

Jan 28, 2018, 10:35 PM

Posts: 573
Location: Swindon
Team(s): Cambridge City, Charlton Athletic

Post #17 of 51 (13361 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tykeoldboy] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I doubt there would have been German or Italian dominance at club and national level if football had taken hold before these two countries existed.

True, but some sort of international tournament for the Holy Roman Empire would have been a reasonably obvious idea for the various German micro-states, in a similar way to the UK coming up with the home internationals.



Cambridge City - on a tour of places we've never heard of and can't spell.


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jan 29, 2018, 5:01 AM

Posts: 2476
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #18 of 51 (13281 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What year in European history could be equated to 1888 in order to produce the most interesting or amusing alternate history? I'm erring towards the 13th. century, perhaps...



Professional cretin.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 29, 2018, 12:50 PM

Posts: 10190
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #19 of 51 (13205 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
What year in European history could be equated to 1888 in order to produce the most interesting or amusing alternate history? I'm erring towards the 13th. century, perhaps...



Post Western Roman Empire would be interesting. Or even Muslim Spain through to the reconquest.


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jan 29, 2018, 2:20 PM

Posts: 3123
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton, Mablethorpe

Post #20 of 51 (13165 views)
Shortcut
Re: [windydcfc] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A medieval football tournament in England, pre 1066, would probably be dominated by Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria, these being the largest area and having the best of the players coming from Saxony, Gaul and Scandinavia. The final of such a tournament would be held in Winchester.

There are rumours that a game played at Stamford Bridge in 1066 between a team managed by Sir Alexander of Ferguson and noble knight José Mário dos Santos Mourinho ended was abandoned by referee Clattenburg the Card Wielder after a pitch invasion by a large number of supporters all claiming to be called Norman.


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jan 29, 2018, 8:38 PM

Posts: 3123
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton, Mablethorpe

Post #21 of 51 (13082 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tykeoldboy] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Since early football in England took hold in industrial areas in the late 19th century, if a league existed in 1066, based on the largest trading areas at that time then the top teams would come from Ipswich, Norwich, Thretford, Lincoln and York with other teams in Colchester and possibly London.


zebedee
First Team Star

Jan 29, 2018, 9:23 PM

Posts: 2883
Location: Southport. Southportshire, Republic of Southport
Team(s): Southport

Post #22 of 51 (13075 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tykeoldboy] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Every Dunwich City match since the 14th century has been postponed due to a waterlogged pitch.


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 29, 2018, 11:00 PM

Posts: 7333
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #23 of 51 (13035 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tykeoldboy] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A medieval football tournament in England, pre 1066, would probably be dominated by Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria, these being the largest area and having the best of the players coming from Saxony, Gaul and Scandinavia. The final of such a tournament would be held in Winchester.

There are rumours that a game played at Stamford Bridge in 1066 between a team managed by Sir Alexander of Ferguson and noble knight José Mário dos Santos Mourinho ended was abandoned by referee Clattenburg the Card Wielder after a pitch invasion by a large number of supporters all claiming to be called Norman.

Don't know how well all of these games would have been reported/recorded for posterity but I presume the result of the 1066 Anglo-French encounter, the so called "Battle of Hastings", could have been found somewhere in the Bayeux Tapestry.



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jan 29, 2018, 11:53 PM

Posts: 3123
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton, Mablethorpe

Post #24 of 51 (13022 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ropemaker] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A medieval football tournament in England, pre 1066, would probably be dominated by Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria, these being the largest area and having the best of the players coming from Saxony, Gaul and Scandinavia. The final of such a tournament would be held in Winchester.

There are rumours that a game played at Stamford Bridge in 1066 between a team managed by Sir Alexander of Ferguson and noble knight José Mário dos Santos Mourinho ended was abandoned by referee Clattenburg the Card Wielder after a pitch invasion by a large number of supporters all claiming to be called Norman.

Don't know how well all of these games would have been reported/recorded for posterity but I presume the result of the 1066 Anglo-French encounter, the so called "Battle of Hastings", could have been found somewhere in the Bayeux Tapestry.


The tapestry does depict a scene of English fans being chased by French riot knights.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jan 30, 2018, 12:03 AM

Posts: 18554
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #25 of 51 (13018 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ropemaker] Silly 'What if' question - only for nerds! [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I presume the result of the 1066 Anglo-French encounter, the so called "Battle of Hastings", could have been found somewhere in the Bayeux Tapestry.


You'd have had to wait 400 years to read about it in the programme. Printer problems apparently..

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 


free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SUMMIT SOCCER v.1.2.3