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The Queen's Speech

 

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Turbine View
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Jun 11, 2017, 12:02 PM

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The Queen's Speech Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.



Have no Plan A and apply it rigidly..


leohoenig
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Jun 11, 2017, 12:12 PM

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Re: [Turbine View] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is it not normal for the opposition to vote against the Queen's speech, or at least elements of it.
If the Tory-DUP alliance does not get this through, then we need the next election tomorrow



Fat AND Pompous.
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PaulC
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Jun 11, 2017, 12:18 PM

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Post #3 of 29 (1976 views)
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Re: [Turbine View] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.


What he will do is submit amendments to the Queen's Speech and invite those few moderate Tory MPs to support them.


justAndy
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Jun 11, 2017, 3:12 PM

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Post #4 of 29 (1889 views)
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Re: [PaulC] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.


What he will do is submit amendments to the Queen's Speech and invite those few moderate Tory MPs to support them.


Unless the Tories are totally committed to hari kari, there should be nothing in it to worry anyone. easy to say you have listened and bin parts of the manifesto. If they cannot even do that they deserve hoofing out. However, there should then be another election, as all the other parties have a lesser mandate for power, and would still need the DUP to get anywhere


007Dale
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Jun 11, 2017, 4:37 PM

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Post #5 of 29 (1851 views)
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Heard some ridiculous Momentum women on Sky News earlier saying Jeremy Corbyn had a mandate to lead the country and the Tories should not collaborate with the DUP.

It's like silly season - there is a majority for right-leaning parties in Westminster, what does she expect will happen if Jeremy Corbyn tries to get a Queens Speach through?

There are only two realistic options at this point:
1. Tories propped up by the DUP
2. Call a new General Election.

Given the huge significance of the moment with Brexit negotiations, I'd actually love to see some sort of Tory-Labour working alliance, where elements of the Labour manifesto are worked into the Tory budget. That would strip all power from the smaller parties and bring the country together. Chances of this happening are zero.


Turbine View
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Jun 11, 2017, 5:02 PM

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Post #6 of 29 (1839 views)
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Re: [007Dale] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If the new 'love in' between Ed and George produce a joint PM working arangement, then it might just be possible..



Have no Plan A and apply it rigidly..


justAndy
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Jun 11, 2017, 5:04 PM

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Post #7 of 29 (1837 views)
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Re: [PaulC] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.


What he will do is submit amendments to the Queen's Speech and invite those few moderate Tory MPs to support them.


IF it is voted through, it wont need amending


PaulC
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Jun 11, 2017, 5:13 PM

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Post #8 of 29 (1830 views)
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.


What he will do is submit amendments to the Queen's Speech and invite those few moderate Tory MPs to support them.


IF it is voted through, it wont need amending


Amendments are tabled first.


steve walker
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Jun 11, 2017, 7:59 PM

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Post #9 of 29 (1773 views)
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Re: [007Dale] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Given the huge significance of the moment with Brexit negotiations, I'd actually love to see some sort of Tory-Labour working alliance, where elements of the Labour manifesto are worked into the Tory budget. That would strip all power from the smaller parties and bring the country together. Chances of this happening are zero.



I totally agree with this sentiment.

Given that the Brexit negotiations are 'in the National interest' which seems to be the latest mantra that the Tories are chanting then having cross party representation in these talks should have been Government policy from Day One.

Actually I'm not sure that chances of it happening are zero. Sure, it isn't in Labours interests right now as despite them having fewer votes and fewer seats the momentum (no pun intended) is most certainly with them. They are 5-6 points ahead in the polls and with todays 'reshuffle' just presenting us with the same Tories with the same ideas as Mrs May cannot risk making enemies of any of them it's hard to see how that cannot just get worse (or better depending on your outlook). Look what happened when she sacked Osborne.

The reason I say I'm not sure about the chances being zero is that Corbyn does appear to be more open to new ideas and doesn't seem to hold grudges. He has often said that MPs that didn't support him would not necessarily be excluded from a future shadow of even front bench. I think if he saw people which he thought deserved to be included in Brexit negotiations then he would include them regardless of party affiliations.


justAndy
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Jun 11, 2017, 8:16 PM

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Post #10 of 29 (1757 views)
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Re: [PaulC] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I'm hearing that Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to vote down the Queen's Speech. if you were in Labour's shoes at the moment, would you do so?
If it were me, I think I'd sit back and watch things implode. Discuss.


What he will do is submit amendments to the Queen's Speech and invite those few moderate Tory MPs to support them.


IF it is voted through, it wont need amending


Amendments are tabled first.


Yes, but it would normally (although i don't think 'normal' is an appropriate word in this case),be an amendment to add a 'vote of confidence' rather than a specific piece of legislation within it.. If the tories are incapable of sorting that out alongside the DUP, then like i say, they deserve hoofing,


acmold
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Jun 11, 2017, 8:25 PM

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Post #11 of 29 (1749 views)
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or

Wouldl the DUP vote for a Queens speech. They have been described as dinosaurs but they won't except that.


justAndy
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Jun 11, 2017, 8:31 PM

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Post #12 of 29 (1742 views)
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Wouldl the DUP vote for a Queens speech. They have been described as dinosaurs but they won't except that.


I am surprised that folk seem to be surprised about the DUP, i suppose they have not mattered before now. Very right wing, Anti EU, amongst dozens of other things. Anything with the queens name attatched would have to be approved. I had the pleasure of serving in NI for 3 years, Bigotry was almost exclusively loyalist, and it seems it remains so. The DUP, like the Tories may well do anything to stay in power


steve walker
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Jun 11, 2017, 8:47 PM

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Post #13 of 29 (1727 views)
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Wouldl the DUP vote for a Queens speech. They have been described as dinosaurs but they won't except that.


I am surprised that folk seem to be surprised about the DUP, i suppose they have not mattered before now. Very right wing, Anti EU, amongst dozens of other things. Anything with the queens name attatched would have to be approved. I had the pleasure of serving in NI for 3 years, Bigotry was almost exclusively loyalist, and it seems it remains so. The DUP, like the Tories may well do anything to stay in power



That's an interesting inside view on this to help someone like myself who has never been there. I'm sure there must be a lot of people saying 'who the hell are the DUP?'


justAndy
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Jun 11, 2017, 8:58 PM

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Post #14 of 29 (1717 views)
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Re: [steve walker] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
Wouldl the DUP vote for a Queens speech. They have been described as dinosaurs but they won't except that.


I am surprised that folk seem to be surprised about the DUP, i suppose they have not mattered before now. Very right wing, Anti EU, amongst dozens of other things. Anything with the queens name attatched would have to be approved. I had the pleasure of serving in NI for 3 years, Bigotry was almost exclusively loyalist, and it seems it remains so. The DUP, like the Tories may well do anything to stay in power



That's an interesting inside view on this to help someone like myself who has never been there. I'm sure there must be a lot of people saying 'who the hell are the DUP?'


Blimey, where to start, DUP/UDA/UVF add in the UDR of old, they all pee'd in the same pot ( i going back to the mid 80's ) - they were never as bad as the IRA or INLA, but were not far behind (perhaps not the UDR, more disciplined regular army)

The DUP are Loyalist with a very big capital L


007Dale
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Jun 11, 2017, 9:10 PM

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Post #15 of 29 (1711 views)
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Re: [steve walker] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It would be great if they could work something out.

I listened to Jezza today and the parties are not that far apart on Brexit. He acknowledged that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. He wanted a tariff free trade deal (same as Tories). The big difference comes with the European Court of Justice.

A compromise on the budget could include something like:
- free tuition for certain key courses (nursing, medical, sciences). But not Media studies at Northants Poly.
- raise in personal allowance (which both sides agree on)
- No big raise in Income Tax and VAT, but scrap the Tories planned corporation tax cuts, maybe 1p on the 40p rate if required.

It just feels like a pragmatic solution could be found with the will of the MP's.


Fanatic
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Jun 11, 2017, 9:31 PM

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Post #16 of 29 (1700 views)
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Re: [007Dale] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It would be great if they could work something out.

I listened to Jezza today and the parties are not that far apart on Brexit. He acknowledged that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. He wanted a tariff free trade deal (same as Tories). The big difference comes with the European Court of Justice.

A compromise on the budget could include something like:
- free tuition for certain key courses (nursing, medical, sciences). But not Media studies at Northants Poly.
- raise in personal allowance (which both sides agree on)
- No big raise in Income Tax and VAT, but scrap the Tories planned corporation tax cuts, maybe 1p on the 40p rate if required.

It just feels like a pragmatic solution could be found with the will of the MP's.


I think you mean the European Court of Human Rights. The ECJ is part of the EU and we would leave that if we leave.

The ECHR is subscribed to by all European countries except Belarus. Leaving it would make us look like a dictatorship.

I believe the Tories have done a reverse ferret on this and apparently no longer want to leave it.


Mr. T
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Jun 11, 2017, 10:12 PM

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Post #17 of 29 (1676 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The big difference comes with the European Court of Justice.


I think you mean the European Court of Human Rights. The ECJ is part of the EU and we would leave that if we leave.

The ECHR is subscribed to by all European countries except Belarus. Leaving it would make us look like a dictatorship.

I believe the Tories have done a reverse ferret on this and apparently no longer want to leave it.


The EU recently suggested that after leaving the UK should continue to abide by ECJ rulings on the rights of EU citizens in the UK. That would be unacceptable.

ECHR:
The Tories have more than once suggested that parts of the ECHR be rescinded so that foreign criminals can be deported. The saga of Abu Hamza was an embarrassment, though in light of recent revelations one has to ask whether this was due to legalities or a simple lack of competence. Other countries appear to have much less difficulty in removing undesirables.

To say the UK would look like a dictatorship if it left the ECHR is a bit of an exaggeration, however. I don't think it was regarded as one when it signed up in 1953, especially as it played a large part in drafting it under the guidance of David Maxwell-Fyfe.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Jun 11, 2017, 10:38 PM)


buncranaboy
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Jun 12, 2017, 7:58 PM

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Post #18 of 29 (1550 views)
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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'


Blimey, where to start, DUP/UDA/UVF add in the UDR of old, they all pee'd in the same pot ( i going back to the mid 80's ) - they were never as bad as the IRA or INLA, but were not far behind (perhaps not the UDR, more disciplined regular army)

The DUP are Loyalist with a very big capital L


And equally worrying is the way all moderate parties in NI lost their representation - it's now totally polarised between DUP and Sinn Fein. And you can bet that the latter will be keeping a very close eye on any "favours" done for the DUP by their newly-found status in government; potentially very troublesome indeed.


justAndy
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Jun 12, 2017, 8:11 PM

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Post #19 of 29 (1540 views)
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In Reply To

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'


Blimey, where to start, DUP/UDA/UVF add in the UDR of old, they all pee'd in the same pot ( i going back to the mid 80's ) - they were never as bad as the IRA or INLA, but were not far behind (perhaps not the UDR, more disciplined regular army)

The DUP are Loyalist with a very big capital L


And equally worrying is the way all moderate parties in NI lost their representation - it's now totally polarised between DUP and Sinn Fein. And you can bet that the latter will be keeping a very close eye on any "favours" done for the DUP by their newly-found status in government; potentially very troublesome indeed.


The SDLP have been fighting a losing battle with SF for some time, likewise with the UUP and DUP. I realise it would be a massive leap, but if SF see DUP winning ground due to backing the Tories, then they could, at a really big stretch take their seats in westminster. That would put the cat amongst the pidgeons


buncranaboy
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Re: [justAndy] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They may be forced to if there isn't a working assembly in Stormont where they can make themselves heard.


Mr. T
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Jun 12, 2017, 8:19 PM

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...if SF see DUP winning ground due to backing the Tories, then they could, at a really big stretch take their seats in Westminster...


To do that they would have to swear allegiance to the Crown, thus compromising the very reason for their existence.


justAndy
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Jun 12, 2017, 8:21 PM

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They may be forced to if there isn't a working assembly in Stormont where they can make themselves heard.


DUP have a few balls to juggle. Support Tories, gain concessions, But barter with SF to keep stormont open so they dont tiptoe into westminster and spoil the DUP party.

If direct rule from westminster is re-applied, i can see SF getting very niggly


mick
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Post #23 of 29 (1529 views)
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They may be forced to if there isn't a working assembly in Stormont where they can make themselves heard.


If Sinn Fein MPs were to take the parliamentary oath swearing allegiance to the Queen as head of state that would surely be the biggest political U-turn ever


justAndy
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Jun 12, 2017, 8:28 PM

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Post #24 of 29 (1524 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] The Queen's Speech [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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...if SF see DUP winning ground due to backing the Tories, then they could, at a really big stretch take their seats in Westminster...


To do that they would have to swear allegiance to the Crown, thus compromising the very reason for their existence.


Yes, hence why i suggested it was unlikely. The problem is Stormont. Either they have another election! or come to an agreement of power sharing (not looking likely). If not then it is direct rule from a westminster ruled by the DUP, and that wold surely back SF into a corner


PaulC
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To do that they would have to swear allegiance to the Crown, thus compromising the very reason for their existence.


They could just cross their fingers behind their backs as they made their declaration.

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