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League clubs learning by having early inspections.

 

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Mishi
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Dec 26, 2010, 6:27 PM

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Post #26 of 49 (4655 views)
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Re: [acmold] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I set for Dagenham precisely because their website WAS so confident. No trains on 26th December, & no tubes due to a combination of engineering work & strike action. So I took four buses & two & half hours travelling, only to get a text, when ten minutes from the ground, from a mate in Belgium, saying the game was off!

I've certainly seen more than one game in the past at Victoria Road, against the Hamlet, when the pitch has resembled an ice rink, but was flat, & still played in the past. Grr!

So it was fours buses home, & another three hours of travelling, sue to more traffic.

Oh wel,, at least I know Whyteleafe is off tomorrow!



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Isaac
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Dec 26, 2010, 7:51 PM

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Post #27 of 49 (4644 views)
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Re: [Mishi] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What other business could treat paying customers with such total contempt?

Ipswich v Watford was another late postponment as well as the Charlton game and no doubt other games as well after fans had driven hundreds of miles to get there with very little public transport available. As Acmold said the whole lot should have been called off Christmas Eve or even last night. I went out to walk the dog about 7pm last night and it was -4 and quite obvious that there would be no football in this part of the world


(This post was edited by Isaac on Dec 26, 2010, 8:32 PM)


Isaac
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Dec 27, 2010, 1:06 AM

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Post #28 of 49 (4607 views)
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Re: [Isaac] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Everton's claim that the frozen pipe problem highlights their need for a new ground is weakened somewhat by the fact that the same thing happened at Swansea's new Liberty Stadium meaning a rugby match had to be called off as did Derby County's home game due to power supply problems at Pride Park.


acmold
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Dec 27, 2010, 9:46 AM

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Re: [Isaac] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or

The following has been posted on Oxford United's website

http://www.oufc.co.uk/...0342~2251699,00.html

It at least sets out what is going on, and more or less gives a timetable of what is happening, and basically says if the weather is kind we may get a game.

I presume they will update around dinnertime after the pitch has been looked at.


paulh66
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Dec 27, 2010, 12:30 PM

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Post #30 of 49 (4564 views)
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What other business could treat paying customers with such total contempt?

Ipswich v Watford was another late postponment as well as the Charlton game and no doubt other games as well after fans had driven hundreds of miles to get there with very little public transport available. As Acmold said the whole lot should have been called off Christmas Eve or even last night. I went out to walk the dog about 7pm last night and it was -4 and quite obvious that there would be no football in this part of the world


Agreed. As illustrated by Brentford's ridiculously early call off of tomorrow's match, despite the thaw already kicking in.

I could understand it if we were talking non-league here but full time professional clubs exist to play football and employ people to make it happen. A game between professional clubs should be given every chance of happening.

How the hell the Griffin Park pitch can be so bad that it's already beyond redemption over the next 24 hours, despite temperatures expected to remain above freezing throughout that time, beggars belief. At the very least, hold back on a decision until early morning tomorrow rather than take an easy cop out.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Dec 27, 2010, 12:30 PM)


leohoenig
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Dec 27, 2010, 3:11 PM

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Post #31 of 49 (4541 views)
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Re: [paulh66] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So, we have posters complaining about clubs that do not call off their games early, forcing supporters to travel in vain - and another that complains that a club has called the match off early, meaning that supporters do not have to travel.



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paulh66
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Dec 27, 2010, 3:41 PM

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Post #32 of 49 (4535 views)
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So, we have posters complaining about clubs that do not call off their games early, forcing supporters to travel in vain - and another that complains that a club has called the match off early, meaning that supporters do not have to travel.


Correct - new man v old school thinking!! Laugh

Seriously, re: Brentford, given the improving prevailing weather and travel conditions and, assuming Brentford's people could be bothered to cover and/or work on the pitch, I don't see why they couldn't have waited almost another 24 hours before making a final decision. This would still have meant the visiting fans wouldn't have to set off on a wasted trip.

From my own experience following a club, most away fans contemplating a 200 mile trip on a winter bank holiday would be the die hards who have already long since made travel arrangements and would be looking forward to the day. I'm sure the majority wouldn't have minded waiting for a decision until, say 8.30am tomorrow morning and, if the game was called off as they were setting off, I doubt they'd feel any more inconvenienced than they are at present and they'd still have ample time to make alternative domestic arrangements.

I agree with Isaac about clubs (or refs?) that call games off an hour or so before kick off when the prevailing conditions suggest the decision was always going to be marginal, but Brentford seems a very different situation.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Dec 27, 2010, 3:46 PM)


mick
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Dec 27, 2010, 6:39 PM

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Post #33 of 49 (4503 views)
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Re: [paulh66] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I suggest there is a middle option here. Note that I am only talking about professional football in the Football League** and the times are just first thoughts which would need to be refined.

* Firstly, prior to each season, a cut off point would be set for every match based on the time it would take for supporters to travel from the locality of the away team. So for example:
Sheffield Wednesday v Huddersfield - travel time circa 1 hour, add 2 hour leeway for delays and arrival in plenty of time - cut off 3 hours before kick off.
Sheffield Wednesday v Southampton - travel time circa 4 hours, add 3 hour leeway due to the greater distance - cut off 7 hours before kick off.

* On the day of the match (or day before if the cut off would be before daybreak, but with a follow up on the matchday morning if the pitch was passed overnight) undertake a pitch inspection using, for consistency, the Pitch Probe pioneered by Carlisle a few weeks ago. The pitch temperature readings should be posted online.

* The decision to postpone or otherwise should then be made using the readings and would not take into account what may or may not happen with the weather - this would prevent the situation at, say, Notts County the other week where the pitch was frozen on inspection but they 'hoped it would thaw out' which of course it didn't.

* Once a pitch is passed fit on the day, then the game should only be subsequently called off if later readings (requested only by the match referee and taken by the Pitch Probe) confirms the pitch temperature has reduced by 'xx' degrees - this would prevent a pitch being passed fit at say 1200 and then called of at 1445 even though conditions hadn't changed.

Any thoughts ?

** I have deliberately excluded the Premier League as (i) they should have undersoil heating and (ii) I am not concerned about 'supporters' travelling from Essex for Man Utd v Bolton.


villahopper
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Dec 27, 2010, 6:44 PM

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Post #34 of 49 (4497 views)
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Re: [mick] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I suggest there is a middle option here. Note that I am only talking about professional football in the Football League** and the times are just first thoughts which would need to be refined.

* Firstly, prior to each season, a cut off point would be set for every match based on the time it would take for supporters to travel from the locality of the away team. So for example:
Sheffield Wednesday v Huddersfield - travel time circa 1 hour, add 2 hour leeway for delays and arrival in plenty of time - cut off 3 hours before kick off.
Sheffield Wednesday v Southampton - travel time circa 4 hours, add 3 hour leeway due to the greater distance - cut off 7 hours before kick off.

* On the day of the match (or day before if the cut off would be before daybreak, but with a follow up on the matchday morning if the pitch was passed overnight) undertake a pitch inspection using, for consistency, the Pitch Probe pioneered by Carlisle a few weeks ago. The pitch temperature readings should be posted online.

* The decision to postpone or otherwise should then be made using the readings and would not take into account what may or may not happen with the weather - this would prevent the situation at, say, Notts County the other week where the pitch was frozen on inspection but they 'hoped it would thaw out' which of course it didn't.

* Once a pitch is passed fit on the day, then the game should only be subsequently called off if later readings (requested only by the match referee and taken by the Pitch Probe) confirms the pitch temperature has reduced by 'xx' degrees - this would prevent a pitch being passed fit at say 1200 and then called of at 1445 even though conditions hadn't changed.

Any thoughts ?

** I have deliberately excluded the Premier League as (i) they should have undersoil heating and (ii) I am not concerned about 'supporters' travelling from Essex for Man Utd v Bolton.


Why are you not concerned about 'supporters' travelling from Essex. They are still supporters wherever they come from


mick
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Dec 27, 2010, 6:51 PM

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Post #35 of 49 (4495 views)
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Why are you not concerned about 'supporters' travelling from Essex.

Why are you concerned why I am not concerned ? More importantly, do you think my suggestion has merit or am I talking B****s ?


villahopper
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Dec 27, 2010, 6:56 PM

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Post #36 of 49 (4490 views)
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Re: [mick] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well I do think it has merit yes. At least a standardised system would enable fans to make more sense of whats going on. Unfortunately more and more games are being called of despite the pitch being playable. Elf and Safety strikes again. Funny they dont tell all the shops they have to shut on Saturday afternoons if the pavements are a bit slippy


acmold
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Dec 27, 2010, 7:04 PM

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Post #37 of 49 (4484 views)
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Re: [villahopper] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or

This is the latest from Oxford United about tomorrows game

http://www.oufc.co.uk/...0342~2252430,00.html

I know they are my local but I don't watch them very often, but I do wonder if a few other league clubs put updates like this on their websites it might help.


burgesshillbee
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Dec 27, 2010, 10:42 PM

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Post #38 of 49 (4445 views)
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Re: [paulh66] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have to admit i am disappointed with the decision to call Brentford's match off as early as they did but it appears that it was the match offiical who actually called the game off 30 hours befoe KO, so maybe the question should be directed to him as to why call it off then rather than wait at least until 9.00 am tomorrow based on the weather forecast. As a guess i would say that it is the Braemer Road side that may be causing the problem as this side always seems to be the wet or frozen side.


Isaac
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Dec 29, 2010, 10:56 AM

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Post #39 of 49 (4386 views)
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I have to admit i am disappointed with the decision to call Brentford's match off as early as they did but it appears that it was the match offiical who actually called the game off 30 hours befoe KO, so maybe the question should be directed to him as to why call it off then rather than wait at least until 9.00 am tomorrow based on the weather forecast. As a guess i would say that it is the Braemer Road side that may be causing the problem as this side always seems to be the wet or frozen side.



It seems that a lot of League 1&2 games were called off where the opposition were travelling a considerable distance, surely that's better than a repeat of the fiasco at Charlton and Ipswich on Boxing Day?


Isaac
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Dec 29, 2010, 11:05 AM

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Well I do think it has merit yes. At least a standardised system would enable fans to make more sense of whats going on. Unfortunately more and more games are being called of despite the pitch being playable. Elf and Safety strikes again. Funny they dont tell all the shops they have to shut on Saturday afternoons if the pavements are a bit slippy



Whilst I agree that a lot of the H&S stuff is ridiculous I'm not sure that is an entirely fair comparison, most people shop locally and don't travel hundreds of miles up and down the country and the last thing the emergency services need are thousands of football fans stuck on motorways in sub zero temperatures.

And actually Brent Cross shopping centre did close one day recently when conditions around the centre became too dangerous.


paulh66
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Dec 29, 2010, 1:39 PM

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Post #41 of 49 (4371 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
I have to admit i am disappointed with the decision to call Brentford's match off as early as they did but it appears that it was the match offiical who actually called the game off 30 hours befoe KO, so maybe the question should be directed to him as to why call it off then rather than wait at least until 9.00 am tomorrow based on the weather forecast. As a guess i would say that it is the Braemer Road side that may be causing the problem as this side always seems to be the wet or frozen side.



It seems that a lot of League 1&2 games were called off where the opposition were travelling a considerable distance, surely that's better than a repeat of the fiasco at Charlton and Ipswich on Boxing Day?


As has been pointed out, there is a middle ground between these two extremes.

Virtually every other game postponed was in the midlands/north of the country; all other games in the home counties/London went ahead, inlcuding where the visitors travelled long distances (e.g. Barnet v Stockport). Travel conditions were acceptable and I just feel Brentford should have been better prepared and made more of an effort for it to take place.

Something must have gone seriously wrong if the pitch was beyond redemption 36 hours before kick off, given the prevailing weather conditions. They still had a full day to work on it before the opposition needed to have set off.


Isaac
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Dec 29, 2010, 3:39 PM

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Re: [paulh66] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's difficult to pass judgement without knowing the full facts, for instance I was suprised that yesterdays game at Ebbsfleet went ahead whilst Welling was called off.

As for Brentford, and I'm only guessing here, there might have been a lack of enthusiasm after hearing about all the effort ground staff and volunteers put in to get the Boxing Day fixture at Charlton played only for it to be called off an hour before kick off?


sandhurstbee
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Dec 30, 2010, 12:38 AM

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Re: [Isaac] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was also disappointed with Brentfords game being off but as Burgesshillbee points out the Braemar Road side has always been a problem. To suggest that Brentford never made an effort for the game to go ahead is a joke. According to the Website the Covers were on all week but it was the Referee who decided the pitch was dangerous. Colchester was also called off at the same time and a majority of games in the South failed to go ahead. Maybe Paul would have been happier travelling to London only to find the game called off at short notice Crazy
Hopefully when the game is replayed it will be on a better pitch where both teams can play football rather than on an Ice Rink.



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paulh66
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Dec 30, 2010, 1:04 AM

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I was also disappointed with Brentfords game being off but as Burgesshillbee points out the Braemar Road side has always been a problem. To suggest that Brentford never made an effort for the game to go ahead is a joke. According to the Website the Covers were on all week but it was the Referee who decided the pitch was dangerous. Colchester was also called off at the same time and a majority of games in the South failed to go ahead. Maybe Paul would have been happier travelling to London only to find the game called off at short notice Crazy
Hopefully when the game is replayed it will be on a better pitch where both teams can play football rather than on an Ice Rink.


Just bemused at how on earth a professional club's pitch can be frozen beyond redemption 30 hours before kick off when temperatures are several degrees above freezing for at least 48 hours before the game. Crazy For a professional club, it's embarrassing.

Every other league side for miles around managed to get their pitch playable. Maybe the Bees should ask nearby step 6 side Feltham for some help - they managed to get their Tuesday game on OK.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Dec 30, 2010, 1:55 AM)


VP
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Dec 31, 2010, 8:49 PM

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Post #45 of 49 (4163 views)
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Maybe the Bees should ask nearby step 6 side Feltham for some help - they managed to get their Tuesday game on OK.


Yeah but Feltham / Bedfont have the legend that is 'Nut250' doing their pitch. He used to do the pitches at Chelsea's training ground and really does know what he's doing. We hired him ourselves for a few months - he worked wonders but in the end we couldn't afford him any more so we had to let him go. I'm sure if Brentford contacted him he'd be willing to help.


sandhurstbee
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Jan 3, 2011, 11:00 AM

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Post #46 of 49 (4101 views)
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Just bemused at how on earth a professional club's pitch can be frozen beyond redemption 30 hours before kick off when temperatures are several degrees above freezing for at least 48 hours before the game. Crazy For a professional club, it's embarrassing.

A Piece in Brentfords programme BY CO Andrew Mills Re Postponement v Tranmere " With the playing surface seemingly free from significant snow but with a predicted continuation of the extreme cold conditions a precautianary pitch inspection was called for 10.30AM Monday morning (27th). The local weather forecasts suggested rain/snow fall for Monday evening and into Tuesday. With Tony Ashley, Jo Fitzsimmons, Phil Fifield and Daniel Carter all working hard on removing the last of the snow and Ice from the Griffin Park surface the prospect of playing looked genuinely to be in the balance. Though the playing surface appeared to be good, the ground was frozen solid to the point where it was impossible to even break the surface with a Pitch Fork! On inspection the Referee was also extrmely concerned about the ability of the Referee's Assistants to be able to follow the game, with the touchlines frozen solid, even under the covers. Whilst the covers offer protection to the entire pitch at temperatures as low as -5, this does not take into account the wind chill factor which greatly increases the depth of the freeze. Despite all the efforts of those working on the pitch throughout the day, the referee felt he was unable to decalre the surface safe and was not confident that ,whatever measures we took, we could adequately ensure it thawing. I'm sure, like many of you, I spent Tuesday frustrated that we should have been playing football, though, on reflection, the ground staff still feel that the decision was correct and with the pitch yesterday, covered with surface water, unable to drain through the ice just under the surface". Game now Rearranged for Tuesday 22nd February 7.45.



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Mr. T
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Jan 3, 2011, 1:53 PM

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Post #47 of 49 (4085 views)
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Re: [sandhurstbee] League clubs learning by having early inspections. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

One wouldn't have had to have been there not to be surprised by Brentford's game being called off so early. This was not a case of one or two nights of slight to moderate frost that might have thawed sufficiently during the day for play to take place but the result of several nights of severe and penetrating frosts without any daytime thawing. Here in Wellingborough, just up the road from my house there are some park football pitches that get sun on them all day but were waterlogged for more than three days after last week's rain, the turf like a saturated peat bog with the water just sitting in the top three or four inches below which the ice persisted. I'm sure that there were many pitches like this up and down the country early last week.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Jan 3, 2011, 1:54 PM)


paulh66
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Jan 3, 2011, 9:29 PM

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One wouldn't have had to have been there not to be surprised by Brentford's game being called off so early. This was not a case of one or two nights of slight to moderate frost that might have thawed sufficiently during the day for play to take place but the result of several nights of severe and penetrating frosts without any daytime thawing.

In that case, there must have been a few surprised people in Barnet, Milton Keynes, Oxford, Gillingham, Farnborough, Wimbledon, Ebbsfleet, ...er Feltham etc - all of whom managed to stage a game on 28th. Except for Brentford, Colchester was the only other professional club within spitting distance of London to fail to stage their game.

Anyway, from a selfish point of view, the lurgy meant my attendance was doubtful on 28th; hopefully available for the rearranged date! Cool


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jan 3, 2011, 9:56 PM)


Mr. T
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Jan 4, 2011, 12:18 AM

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In Reply To
One wouldn't have had to have been there not to be surprised by Brentford's game being called off so early. This was not a case of one or two nights of slight to moderate frost that might have thawed sufficiently during the day for play to take place but the result of several nights of severe and penetrating frosts without any daytime thawing.

In that case, there must have been a few surprised people in Barnet, Milton Keynes, Oxford, Gillingham, Farnborough, Wimbledon, Ebbsfleet, ...er Feltham etc - all of whom managed to stage a game on 28th. Except for Brentford, Colchester was the only other professional club within spitting distance of London to fail to stage their game.


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