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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Bury Demise

 

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BillShep
Youth Team Regular

Oct 1, 2019, 9:16 AM

Posts: 226
Location: Anfield, Liverpool
Team(s): City of Liverpool FC

Post #126 of 180 (7619 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They need to rapidly accept that they will not be getting back into the EFL. As posted several times by others why are we not reading a thread about "The New Bury FC" or whatever they will be called. A lot of time is being wasted here from what I can see,



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Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 1, 2019, 9:28 AM

Posts: 3889
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #127 of 180 (7578 views)
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Re: [BillShep] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well if there is to be a new Bury the form it will take will depend a lot on where they play.
So until the fate of the current ground is sealed one way or another it will not be obvious if a new club is even required.
They have to try to save the current club first if at all possible.
I just wish that they would stop thinking that the EFL and member clubs have let them down.
We will know on the 16th if there is any hope when it all has to be laid bear in front of the court.


kirby knitters
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Oct 1, 2019, 9:29 AM

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Post #128 of 180 (7578 views)
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Re: [BillShep] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Have any fans put forward a plan to form a new club? If not that is probably why you are not reading a thread about it. The fans are in limbo at the moment while future of Bury FC is sorted and until the outcome is known there is very little that can be done plans wise regarding a new club if indeed one is needed.


genesimmons
Youth Team Star

Oct 1, 2019, 9:39 AM

Posts: 343
Location: Chesterfield
Team(s): Gateshead

Post #129 of 180 (7551 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can see both sides after what happened at gateshead, crack on with a phoenix club or salvage what you have. Gateshead was a mess and whilst plans were in place for a phoenix club the likelyhood of 11th tier football or no football at all for 2019/20 made the supporters club continue to save the existing club. The club was a mess and was even sold to two different people, not sure where that left the football share. One thing in the favour of the club was the council owned the ground. Who would buy bury and all the debts when they may not get the ground?



You wanted the best, you got the best


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 1, 2019, 10:06 AM

Posts: 3889
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #130 of 180 (7505 views)
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Re: [genesimmons] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I can see both sides after what happened at gateshead, crack on with a phoenix club or salvage what you have. Gateshead was a mess and whilst plans were in place for a phoenix club the likelyhood of 11th tier football or no football at all for 2019/20 made the supporters club continue to save the existing club. The club was a mess and was even sold to two different people, not sure where that left the football share. One thing in the favour of the club was the council owned the ground. Who would buy bury and all the debts when they may not get the ground?


If i was the person/persons buying the club i would make the ground my priority.
I am sure when / if the time comes the FA will look more favourably at an application from existing or new club if it still has the ground.


Doobs
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Oct 1, 2019, 10:30 AM

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Post #131 of 180 (7471 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They really need to accept that they aren't a FL club and more. That ended because they ran up huge debts and didn't play games. The FL won't set a precedent that a club can sit out a year and return even if they happened to be founder members 121 years ago.
The current club has no value without FL membership. They're time would be better spent buying the ground from whoever it's mortgaged to, while that can't happen until their formally wound up, but they could start work on the phoenix club.


windydcfc
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Oct 1, 2019, 10:43 AM

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Post #132 of 180 (7440 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

How can there be any discussions about Bury’s future, when Dale is the majority shareholder? If the anonymous bidders had bought the club & sorted out the ownership of the stadium, then I could understand this latest statement. It appears that they are hoping to get a nod from the F.A. that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2 & then they’ll try and sort the ownership issues out. In my mind they are testing the waters and wondering if it’s worthwhile trying to save the club. If they are placed too low down the pyramid, then surely a Phoenix club is the best option. I’m sure the F.A. can’t give them any guarantees & can’t realistically say anything unless they actually own the club.



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 1, 2019, 1:01 PM

Posts: 3889
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #133 of 180 (7248 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
How can there be any discussions about Bury’s future, when Dale is the majority shareholder? If the anonymous bidders had bought the club & sorted out the ownership of the stadium, then I could understand this latest statement. It appears that they are hoping to get a nod from the F.A. that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2 & then they’ll try and sort the ownership issues out. In my mind they are testing the waters and wondering if it’s worthwhile trying to save the club. If they are placed too low down the pyramid, then surely a Phoenix club is the best option. I’m sure the F.A. can’t give them any guarantees & can’t realistically say anything unless they actually own the club.


They already had an agreement but that's gone up the wall so HMRC are back to court on 16 October.
If the club can convince the court there is still some hope they will get more time.
The club going out of existence is not going to benefit HMRC especially if the one real asset ( the stadium ) effectively belongs to whoever they have a mortgage arrangement with.
Giving the club a bit more time to be sold does make sense to me because the alternative is that everyone including HMRC get a share of absolutely nothing.


genesimmons
Youth Team Star

Oct 1, 2019, 1:31 PM

Posts: 343
Location: Chesterfield
Team(s): Gateshead

Post #134 of 180 (7204 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Surely Steve Dale wont be around much longer, if its not sold whats left for him? If i was a bury fan i would want them wound up as a buyer looks unlikely. I wanted gateshead wound up whilst the last cowboys were there



You wanted the best, you got the best


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 1, 2019, 1:35 PM

Posts: 10531
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #135 of 180 (7187 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
How can there be any discussions about Bury’s future, when Dale is the majority shareholder? If the anonymous bidders had bought the club & sorted out the ownership of the stadium, then I could understand this latest statement. It appears that they are hoping to get a nod from the F.A. that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2 & then they’ll try and sort the ownership issues out. In my mind they are testing the waters and wondering if it’s worthwhile trying to save the club. If they are placed too low down the pyramid, then surely a Phoenix club is the best option. I’m sure the F.A. can’t give them any guarantees & can’t realistically say anything unless they actually own the club.


They already had an agreement but that's gone up the wall so HMRC are back to court on 16 October.
If the club can convince the court there is still some hope they will get more time.
The club going out of existence is not going to benefit HMRC especially if the one real asset ( the stadium ) effectively belongs to whoever they have a mortgage arrangement with.
Giving the club a bit more time to be sold does make sense to me because the alternative is that everyone including HMRC get a share of absolutely nothing.



That doesn’t answer my point. How can anyone be having conversations about where in the pyramid they are going to be placed. When the club is still owned by the charlatan Dale & all he’s bothered about is making a shed load of cash. If they had prized control from him, I could understand the latest statement. It’s almost as if they’re hoping to keep the pressure on the FA, hoping that the FA comes out and states that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2. Then when that’s sorted, they’ll try & prize the club for a reasonable price from Dale. The trouble is, it doesn’t work like that & Gateshead are an example as to those in the background needing to sort the ownership out before any discussions can take place.



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 1, 2019, 1:50 PM

Posts: 3889
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #136 of 180 (7157 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
How can there be any discussions about Bury’s future, when Dale is the majority shareholder? If the anonymous bidders had bought the club & sorted out the ownership of the stadium, then I could understand this latest statement. It appears that they are hoping to get a nod from the F.A. that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2 & then they’ll try and sort the ownership issues out. In my mind they are testing the waters and wondering if it’s worthwhile trying to save the club. If they are placed too low down the pyramid, then surely a Phoenix club is the best option. I’m sure the F.A. can’t give them any guarantees & can’t realistically say anything unless they actually own the club.


They already had an agreement but that's gone up the wall so HMRC are back to court on 16 October.
If the club can convince the court there is still some hope they will get more time.
The club going out of existence is not going to benefit HMRC especially if the one real asset ( the stadium ) effectively belongs to whoever they have a mortgage arrangement with.
Giving the club a bit more time to be sold does make sense to me because the alternative is that everyone including HMRC get a share of absolutely nothing.



That doesn’t answer my point. How can anyone be having conversations about where in the pyramid they are going to be placed. When the club is still owned by the charlatan Dale & all he’s bothered about is making a shed load of cash. If they had prized control from him, I could understand the latest statement. It’s almost as if they’re hoping to keep the pressure on the FA, hoping that the FA comes out and states that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2. Then when that’s sorted, they’ll try & prize the club for a reasonable price from Dale. The trouble is, it doesn’t work like that & Gateshead are an example as to those in the background needing to sort the ownership out before any discussions can take place.


I know what you mean and i have already said that i do not expect any answers from the FA until the new year maybe not until May.
But there is no money to be made here.
The way i see it Dale either gives the club away to someone who will take on the depts or it folds.
If he can get someone to take on the depts and give him a profit well he is just a lucky man. Who cares as long as the club survives.


hawkwind
First Team Star

Oct 1, 2019, 3:21 PM

Posts: 2018
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Post #137 of 180 (7037 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
That doesn’t answer my point. How can anyone be having conversations about where in the pyramid they are going to be placed. When the club is still owned by the charlatan Dale & all he’s bothered about is making a shed load of cash. If they had prized control from him, I could understand the latest statement. It’s almost as if they’re hoping to keep the pressure on the FA, hoping that the FA comes out and states that they’ll be placed at steps 1 or 2. Then when that’s sorted, they’ll try & prize the club for a reasonable price from Dale. The trouble is, it doesn’t work like that & Gateshead are an example as to those in the background needing to sort the ownership out before any discussions can take place.


I know what you mean and i have already said that i do not expect any answers from the FA until the new year maybe not until May.
But there is no money to be made here.
The way i see it Dale either gives the club away to someone who will take on the depts or it folds.
If he can get someone to take on the depts and give him a profit well he is just a lucky man. Who cares as long as the club survives.


I understand the actions of the ForeverBury group. It is reasonable to be talking with the FA particularly when any FA decision on placing of Bury next season may impact the rescue of the current club. On the other hand the FA can hardly make a decision now when they don't know what if any of Bury's current debt will be honoured and whether the club will survive or be superseded by a new club.

However that doesn't stop the FA considering the limited number of likely scenarios and deciding where Bury (old or new) would be placed in the non-league system. Whilst there is no burning need for the FA to take a definitive decision now, and indeed they are not in a position to, it would be appropriate for resolution to have occurred and be in the public domain well before the end of the season. Football League clubs at Level Four knew in September that the 23rd-placed club will be reprieved. It is reasonable that potentially impacted clubs at Level Five and below should have equivalent information in good time.


shimtoan
First Team Regular


Oct 1, 2019, 6:36 PM

Posts: 1379
Location: Dunkirk, Nottingham
Team(s): Dunkirk

Post #138 of 180 (6875 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Steven Dale is listed as a Creditor on the CVA dated 17/07/2019, to the tune of some £7.1m



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


genesimmons
Youth Team Star

Oct 1, 2019, 7:34 PM

Posts: 343
Location: Chesterfield
Team(s): Gateshead

Post #139 of 180 (6780 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The leyton orient supporters trust are worth asking, they were a great help to gateshead. They basically had plans for a phoenix club, had even made applications to the fa as the worst scenario of the club folding in may looked likely. If current bury aint sorted by xmas them the phoenix club preparations need to progress. I aint a expert but i know a bit been in the gateshead supporters club. Bury fans should contact the Gateshead soul too



You wanted the best, you got the best


Andy D
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Oct 2, 2019, 9:53 AM

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Post #140 of 180 (6356 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Steven Dale is listed as a Creditor on the CVA dated 17/07/2019, to the tune of some £7.1m


Of course he is. Because two days before the CVA was due to be put through, the £7m debt was bought off the previo0us owner by a company alleged to be owned by the boyfriend of Dale's daughter Cassandra for £70k. I'm guessing that if it is now listed under his name, the debt has been "passed on".



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Rule 1 - There are no rules
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windydcfc
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Oct 11, 2019, 10:08 PM

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Post #141 of 180 (5139 views)
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Re: [Andy D] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Bury MP James Firth appears to have the backing of the FA to allow Bury FC to join the National League at either tier 5 or 6. https://www.skysports.com/...-says-mp-james-frith I’m sure the ownership of the ground will determine whether this is possible. The club are back in court next week on a winding up petition & that could end any hope https://www.theguardian.com/...etition-phoenix-club



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


shimtoan
First Team Regular


Oct 12, 2019, 3:46 AM

Posts: 1379
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Post #142 of 180 (4934 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Bury MP James Firth appears to have the backing of the FA to allow Bury FC to join the National League at either tier 5 or 6. https://www.skysports.com/...-says-mp-james-frith I’m sure the ownership of the ground will determine whether this is possible. The club are back in court next week on a winding up petition & that could end any hope https://www.theguardian.com/...etition-phoenix-club

With the closest to a precedent for this situation being Boston United in 2007/08-2008/09, I think many of us were expecting it to be National League if it was the same club, even if we didn't feel it was right



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


leohoenig
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Oct 12, 2019, 9:47 AM

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Post #143 of 180 (4712 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think there is a good chance of National League at Step 1 or 2 for a club playing at the old ground (whether old club or reformed)

If the ground is lost in order to pay off creditors, then I think it will be a reformed club at a much lower level



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scottywalds
First Team Star


Oct 13, 2019, 11:12 AM

Posts: 2249
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Post #144 of 180 (4218 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Bury MP James Firth appears to have the backing of the FA to allow Bury FC to join the National League at either tier 5 or 6. https://www.skysports.com/...-says-mp-james-frith I’m sure the ownership of the ground will determine whether this is possible. The club are back in court next week on a winding up petition & that could end any hope https://www.theguardian.com/...etition-phoenix-club


It depends if Sky Sports have got his quote right... "I'm delighted to have the backing of the FA to get Bury FC into the National League system".

National League System means non-league, but National League system might mean steps 1 or 2.


jefferson
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Oct 14, 2019, 4:44 PM

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Post #145 of 180 (3596 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I think there is a good chance of National League at Step 1 or 2 for a club playing at the old ground (whether old club or reformed)

If the ground is lost in order to pay off creditors, then I think it will be a reformed club at a much lower level


It doesn't really matter what league they're in (step 1 or step 6) what matters is sorting out the ground and the ownership. If they lose Gigg Lane then it's a Maidstone/Scarborough/Darlington situation until they can eventually get a new ground back in the town.

The likes of Hereford and Halifax kept their ground which was key to a rebirth.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 14, 2019, 5:57 PM

Posts: 10531
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Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #146 of 180 (3529 views)
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Re: [jefferson] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It looks as though the end is nigh. The proposed buyer has walked away. With the club back in court tomorrow, we could be less than 24 hours away from the end https://www.foreverbury.org/...statement-14-10-2019



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 14, 2019, 7:27 PM

Posts: 3889
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Post #147 of 180 (3375 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Really can not see what HMRC have to gain by pushing this.
The ground seems to be the property of someone else.
Might as well back off and see if something turns up.
If the club has nothing you can only get nothing.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 14, 2019, 9:32 PM

Posts: 10531
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #148 of 180 (3225 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The local MP’s reckons the FA will place Bury in the National League come what may. I doubt very much a Phoenix club will be placed at steps 1 or 2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50048869



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 14, 2019, 11:47 PM

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Post #149 of 180 (3063 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It says National League system.


spen666
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Oct 15, 2019, 1:23 PM

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Post #150 of 180 (2639 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Bury Demise [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Really can not see what HMRC have to gain by pushing this.
The ground seems to be the property of someone else.
Might as well back off and see if something turns up.
If the club has nothing you can only get nothing.


So the HMRC should just allow taxpayers to not pay their debts?

If you don't pay your debts, you must face the consequences, whether a football club, Woolworths PLC, Thomas Cook Plc or Mrs. Miggins.

to decide not to chase debts is the stupidest thing I have heard. All you do is encourage others not to pay, knowing there will be no consequences

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