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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Old Spotted Dog

 

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beyondtheborder
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Sep 20, 2019, 10:10 AM

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Post #26 of 90 (2587 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

you are not curious and you know exactly the history that clapton clowns have with the ESL


KnowYourMarket
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Sep 20, 2019, 10:32 AM

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Post #27 of 90 (2560 views)
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Re: [beyondtheborder] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's all irrelevant. If the FA deem a club to be acceptable at step 6 they would be allocated by them and not the Essex Senior League.



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Beano
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Sep 20, 2019, 11:43 AM

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Post #28 of 90 (2477 views)
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Re: [beyondtheborder] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As I said absolutely no experience of running your own football ground.


That might be true, but it equally might not be relevant to the freeholders. Presumably all of the bidders for the lease will have had to prepare business plans, financial projections and so on and all of the different factors taken into account when making the decision.

After all, having many years "experience of running a football ground" might actively count against an organisation which has run a ground badly, or shares key personnel with (for example) the previous leaseholder.

I think most people who post on this forum would want the Old Spotted Dog to remain in use as a football ground and hopefully as a ground that the local community can be proud of. If CCFC has six-figure cash reserves, it presumably has the resources (both in terms of capital and people) to get the ground into the kind of condition the freeholders and the people of Forest Gate would want to see.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 12:06 PM

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Post #29 of 90 (2457 views)
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Re: [beyondtheborder] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As I said absolutely no experience of running your own football ground.


With respect, none of the three bidders - Clapton FC, Hackney Wick or Clapton Community FC - have any experience of running a football ground as a club themselves.

The ground was previously run by a charity called Newham Community Leisure, which defaulted on its lease in the summer. NCL rented it out to Clapton FC and, most recently, Hackney Wick.

I think what you're trying to say is there are people at Clapton FC with experience of running a football ground, and indeed this ground in particular, as some of them were also on the committee of the liquidated Newham Community Leisure.


That's true but I would say there are many people among the 1500 members of CCFC who have experience of running football grounds, other sporting venues and licensed premises. And many others with the enthusiasm to help out voluntarily.

I'm sure Heineken weighed up experience among many other factors.



Hull City / Clapton fan.

(This post was edited by Paul Cockerton on Sep 20, 2019, 12:10 PM)


paulh66
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Sep 20, 2019, 12:18 PM

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Post #30 of 90 (2419 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Interesting how a political group with no experience of running a football ground and have only been in existence for eighteen months can be given
the lease to the Old Spotted dog is outrageous.


Why did Clapton FC lose the lease in the first place to cause it to be put out for tender?


spen666
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Sep 20, 2019, 12:50 PM

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Post #31 of 90 (2370 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting how a political group with no experience of running a football ground and have only been in existence for eighteen months can be given
the lease to the Old Spotted dog is outrageous.


Why did Clapton FC lose the lease in the first place to cause it to be put out for tender?


As I understand it the situation is

The lease was held by a charity run by genial Vince.

Clapton FC sub let the ground from the charity.

The charity accounts are apparently frozen because of the ongoing investigation/ court case by the Charity Commissioners

The landlords ( a Heineken subsidiary) fore closed on the lease because the Charity commission had not paid the rent.


paulh66
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Sep 20, 2019, 2:06 PM

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Post #32 of 90 (2220 views)
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Re: [spen666] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

OK thanks.
Sounds like it's a situation of Vince's/Clapton FC's own making, unless they can show the investigation/court case is both meritless and has dragged on too long.
(Though I thought someone had previously said on here there was no court case).


Doobs
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Sep 20, 2019, 2:10 PM

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Post #33 of 90 (2213 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Would CFCC consider allowing Clapton FC to share their traditional home?
I think a lot of the angst aimed at CCFC is the perception that they are trying to kill off Clapton FC. While the likes of FCUM and Enfield Town have broken away to form their own club, none of them have then taken control of their old club's ground


kirby knitters
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Sep 20, 2019, 2:21 PM

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Post #34 of 90 (2200 views)
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Re: [Doobs] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What old club is that with FCUM?


Atavistic
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Sep 20, 2019, 4:03 PM

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Post #35 of 90 (2111 views)
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Re: [Doobs] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Would CFCC consider allowing Clapton FC to share their traditional home?
I think a lot of the angst aimed at CCFC is the perception that they are trying to kill off Clapton FC. While the likes of FCUM and Enfield Town have broken away to form their own club, none of them have then taken control of their old club's ground


From the outside, it appears to be indisputable that CCFC are trying to kill off the actual Clapton and claim their history as their own. In fact, I've seen many on Twitter congratulating Community on "returning home" following this latest news, despite Community having never played at the Old Spotted Dog. At the very least, this suggests that they see themselves as "the true Clapton", so I don't think there's any chance they'd make room for the current Clapton.



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El_Hugh
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Sep 20, 2019, 4:15 PM

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Post #36 of 90 (2095 views)
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Re: [Atavistic] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Whilst I wouldn't claim to be on the outside I am not sure it is undisputable. I am not aware of any actions that CCFC have taken that could be construed as such.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 4:25 PM

Posts: 51
Location: East London
Team(s): Hull City, Clapton

Post #37 of 90 (2080 views)
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Re: [Doobs] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Would CFCC consider allowing Clapton FC to share their traditional home?
I think a lot of the angst aimed at CCFC is the perception that they are trying to kill off Clapton FC. While the likes of FCUM and Enfield Town have broken away to form their own club, none of them have then taken control of their old club's ground


Anything is possible I guess but it would need to be proposed - either by Clapton FC or by a CCFC member - and then voted for by a majority of the CCFC members. Plus approved the other way too. Another scenario would be a merger.

From what I understand, Enfield Town offered many times to merge but Enfield 1893 flatly rejected it. And then when they shared Brimsdown Road, Enfield Town took the stands with them to move to Donkey Lane thus preventing 1893 promotion from getting the ESL? So not sure there’s much love lost between them.   

Having previously lived in Manchester for 15 years, I've also been to a football game where FCUM and MUFC fans have been fighting pitched battles on the terraces. Proper terrifying scenes.

So I'd say the CFC and CCFC dispute has been minor in comparison.



Hull City / Clapton fan.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 4:55 PM

Posts: 51
Location: East London
Team(s): Hull City, Clapton

Post #38 of 90 (2044 views)
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Re: [spen666] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Interesting how a political group with no experience of running a football ground and have only been in existence for eighteen months can be given
the lease to the Old Spotted dog is outrageous.


Why did Clapton FC lose the lease in the first place to cause it to be put out for tender?


As I understand it the situation is

The lease was held by a charity run by genial Vince.

Clapton FC sub let the ground from the charity.

The charity accounts are apparently frozen because of the ongoing investigation/ court case by the Charity Commissioners

The landlords ( a Heineken subsidiary) fore closed on the lease because the Charity commission had not paid the rent.


My take is slightly different on the final point.

The charity accounts were frozen in 2013 and have been controlled by the Charity Commission ever since, when they launched their investigation which still hasn't concluded.

I think everyone is agreed that the rent continued to be paid from 2013 until 2017. Why would they suddenly stop paying it in 2017 having done so for four years?

Meanwhile in 2017 the leaseholding charity Newham Community Leisure was put into voluntary liquidation and its assets have been run by a liquidator since. To me it makes much more sense if it was this that led to the default rather than a sudden change of heart at the Charity Commission.

It should be added that the Charity Commission issued a statement to the trade magazine Civil Society completely rejecting Clapton FC's version of events and denying any blame in the lease default.



Hull City / Clapton fan.


kirby knitters
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Sep 20, 2019, 6:40 PM

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Post #39 of 90 (1905 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 

Having previously lived in Manchester for 15 years, I've also been to a football game where FCUM and MUFC fans have been fighting pitched battles on the terraces. Proper terrifying scenes.

--------------------------------
I'd be very interested to know when and where the above took place.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 7:29 PM

Posts: 51
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Team(s): Hull City, Clapton

Post #40 of 90 (1831 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Having previously lived in Manchester for 15 years, I've also been to a football game where FCUM and MUFC fans have been fighting pitched battles on the terraces. Proper terrifying scenes.

--------------------------------
I'd be very interested to know when and where the above took place.


I'll PM you.



Hull City / Clapton fan.


Chris1963
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Sep 20, 2019, 8:41 PM

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Post #41 of 90 (1745 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

Having previously lived in Manchester for 15 years, I've also been to a football game where FCUM and MUFC fans have been fighting pitched battles on the terraces. Proper terrifying scenes.

--------------------------------
I'd be very interested to know when and where the above took place.


I'll PM you.


Can't you post it on the forum? I'm sure we would all like to know about it, given that the two clubs have never met in a competitive fixture.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 8:49 PM

Posts: 51
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Team(s): Hull City, Clapton

Post #42 of 90 (1723 views)
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Re: [Chris1963] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Having previously lived in Manchester for 15 years, I've also been to a football game where FCUM and MUFC fans have been fighting pitched battles on the terraces. Proper terrifying scenes.

--------------------------------
I'd be very interested to know when and where the above took place.


I'll PM you.


Can't you post it on the forum? I'm sure we would all like to know about it, given that the two clubs have never met in a competitive fixture.


Didn't want the thread to go off topic, but seeing as you're being a know-all and implying that I'm lying. This game in 2006.

The United hooligan firm turned up in theory to support Salford, but really to confront the fans of FCUM who had split away the year before.

http://www.wanderersways.com/forum/topic/30643-fc-united-vs-salford-city/



Hull City / Clapton fan.


Chris1963
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Sep 20, 2019, 9:03 PM

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Post #43 of 90 (1705 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for the link, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were lying. Anyway I do remember that match in 2006. I did not attend it (was at Oxford United v Southport that evening) but did attend the FA Vase tie, which was also at the rugby ground on Saturday 18th November - fortunately no trouble this time.


Paul Cockerton
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Sep 20, 2019, 9:09 PM

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Post #44 of 90 (1691 views)
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Re: [Chris1963] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Thanks for the link, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were lying. Anyway I do remember that match in 2006. I did not attend it (was at Oxford United v Southport that evening) but did attend the FA Vase tie, which was also at the rugby ground on Saturday 18th November - fortunately no trouble this time.


Thanks and sorry for being tetchy. I didn't make that game but did follow Salford regularly (and to a lesser extent FCUM) for the next five years or so. The Rhodri Giggs era.



Hull City / Clapton fan.


Steveb
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Sep 20, 2019, 9:27 PM

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Post #45 of 90 (1641 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Thanks for the link, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were lying. Anyway I do remember that match in 2006. I did not attend it (was at Oxford United v Southport that evening) but did attend the FA Vase tie, which was also at the rugby ground on Saturday 18th November - fortunately no trouble this time.


Thanks and sorry for being tetchy. I didn't make that game but did follow Salford regularly (and to a lesser extent FCUM) for the next five years or so. The Rhodri Giggs era.


I was at that game and there was a fair bit of crowd trouble, particularly towards the end of the game. It felt like a throwback to 1970s/1980s League football.




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steve walker
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Sep 20, 2019, 10:36 PM

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Post #46 of 90 (1535 views)
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Re: [Paul Cockerton] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Thanks for the link, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were lying. Anyway I do remember that match in 2006. I did not attend it (was at Oxford United v Southport that evening) but did attend the FA Vase tie, which was also at the rugby ground on Saturday 18th November - fortunately no trouble this time.


Thanks and sorry for being tetchy. I didn't make that game but did follow Salford regularly (and to a lesser extent FCUM) for the next five years or so. The Rhodri Giggs era.



As a complete outsider on the Clapton story although I have tried to read as much info as is available it seems to me that if Clapton FC were perfect tenants or even acceptable tenants of the football stadium then this situation wouldn't even have got to this stage. You do have to actually pay the rent even if it's been set up to go through a charity.

It seems that the land owners want football to continue at the Stadium which should be applauded. Well done to them. They have concluded that the best chance of that being financially viable is via Clapton CFC. That sounds reasonable.

Where that leaves Clapton FC and who can claim the history of the club,,, well who knows


Doobs
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Sep 21, 2019, 9:15 AM

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Post #47 of 90 (1270 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
What old club is that with FCUM?


Really?

Newton Heath


leohoenig
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Sep 21, 2019, 9:19 AM

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Post #48 of 90 (1268 views)
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Re: [Steveb] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was also there, and while I saw the Banners and know there was some fighting, it was not as bad as the linked post suggests.


The amount of publicity that FCUM got at the start up did cause some United fans to see them as a Judas club set up in opposition, and United had a large hooligan element in their day. The gentrification of the grounds at Old Trafford, post 1992 and the Premier League in general left them with lesser opportunities to let out their steam. Curiously, many of those who were "pro-MUFC" and "anti-FCUM" must themselves have been dissenfranchised by the goings on at Old Trafford



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kirby knitters
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Sep 21, 2019, 9:29 AM

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Post #49 of 90 (1252 views)
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Re: [Doobs] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
What old club is that with FCUM?


Really?

Newton Heath
------------------------------
-----------------------------
Think we must have our wires crossed somewhere as there was a 112 gap between Newton Heath leaving ground and FCUM being formed (who are nothing to do with NH or MU)



Doobs
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Sep 21, 2019, 12:43 PM

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Post #50 of 90 (1149 views)
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Re: [kirby knitters] Old Spotted Dog [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Stop being a pedant. FCUM are clearly a breakaway from Man U

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