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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Reading CITY name

 

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Henfield Bee
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Aug 7, 2019, 11:24 AM

Posts: 611
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Post #1 of 27 (4662 views)
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Reading CITY name Can't Post or Reply Privately

Isn't Reading a TOWN? Are there any other examples?



nb: i will only post re new grounds when BurgessHill Bee doesn't..(since he's far better informed than I)


bmavfc
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Aug 7, 2019, 12:14 PM

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Post #2 of 27 (4606 views)
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Re: [Henfield Bee] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Brechin is a town,yet team is city


derekn
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Aug 7, 2019, 12:16 PM

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Re: [bmavfc] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Chelmsford was for many years in this category, but then it was actually made a city.


windydcfc
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Aug 7, 2019, 12:23 PM

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Re: [derekn] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Southwell City isnít a city, itís a small market town & has a Minster & not a Cathedral.



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Reborn Yellow
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Aug 7, 2019, 12:32 PM

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Post #5 of 27 (4571 views)
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Re: [bmavfc] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think Brechin's name comes from the City Road.


London Harrier
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Aug 7, 2019, 1:00 PM

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Post #6 of 27 (4531 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There was a sort of similar thread started by me a few years ago....


https://nonleaguematters.co.uk/..._string=city;#243579


keneastlancs
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Aug 7, 2019, 6:35 PM

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Post #7 of 27 (4143 views)
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Re: [London Harrier] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Swansea City used to be Swansea Town but pre empted their status of becoming a city by changing the football clubs name first in 1969 they became a city in 1970


rainworthgord
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Aug 7, 2019, 8:55 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Southwell City isnít a city, itís a small market town & has a Minster & not a Cathedral.


It is a cathedral. It is the mother church of the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham, and was made a cathedral in the 1880s.


Richard Rundle
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Aug 7, 2019, 9:12 PM

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Re: [keneastlancs] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Swansea City used to be Swansea Town but pre empted their status of becoming a city by changing the football clubs name first in 1969 they became a city in 1970


No, Swansea was announced as a city in July 1969 during a tour of Wales by Prince Charles marking his investiture as Prince of Wales.


keneastlancs
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Aug 8, 2019, 2:15 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Swansea City used to be Swansea Town but pre empted their status of becoming a city by changing the football clubs name first in 1969 they became a city in 1970


No, Swansea was announced as a city in July 1969 during a tour of Wales by Prince Charles marking his investiture as Prince of Wales.

yes it was announced then but not changed till the following year


AndyE
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Aug 8, 2019, 2:49 PM

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Post #11 of 27 (3399 views)
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Re: [rainworthgord] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Southwell City isnít a city, itís a small market town & has a Minster & not a Cathedral.


It is a cathedral. It is the mother church of the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham, and was made a cathedral in the 1880s.


And in fact, it was Southwell which caused the link between city status and cathedral-having to been broken.

Until then, if a place had gained a cathedral then it had automatically become a city at the same time. But the paperwork for making a place a city required it to be a borough already - and Southwell wasn't, it was legally a village (ie it had a parish council rather than a borough council). The civil servants of 1884 when Southwell Minster was "promoted" to cathedral couldn't see how to get around that, and so Southwell did not become a city.

A few years later, the Mayor of Birmingham wrote to the Queen saying "If having a cathedral no longer makes you a city, is it maybe possible that a big town with no cathedral can become a city?". The Queen's people decided that it was indeed possible, and Birmingham became the first non-cathedral-having city in 1889. (It went on to gain a cathedral in 1905.)

By now, the link has gone completely and a place becomes a city when the Queen says so, cathedral or no. A place - even one which does have a cathedral and gained city status in 1211 - can also cease to be a city if the council completely screws up the paperwork, as we who live in Rochester know all too well.


rainworthgord
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Aug 9, 2019, 1:23 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Basis there for some good quiz questions.


DaveU
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Aug 12, 2019, 2:42 PM

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Post #13 of 27 (2423 views)
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Re: [AndyE] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Southwell City isnít a city, itís a small market town & has a Minster & not a Cathedral.


It is a cathedral. It is the mother church of the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham, and was made a cathedral in the 1880s.


And in fact, it was Southwell which caused the link between city status and cathedral-having to been broken.

Until then, if a place had gained a cathedral then it had automatically become a city at the same time. But the paperwork for making a place a city required it to be a borough already - and Southwell wasn't, it was legally a village (ie it had a parish council rather than a borough council). The civil servants of 1884 when Southwell Minster was "promoted" to cathedral couldn't see how to get around that, and so Southwell did not become a city.

A few years later, the Mayor of Birmingham wrote to the Queen saying "If having a cathedral no longer makes you a city, is it maybe possible that a big town with no cathedral can become a city?". The Queen's people decided that it was indeed possible, and Birmingham became the first non-cathedral-having city in 1889. (It went on to gain a cathedral in 1905.)

By now, the link has gone completely and a place becomes a city when the Queen says so, cathedral or no. A place - even one which does have a cathedral and gained city status in 1211 - can also cease to be a city if the council completely screws up the paperwork, as we who live in Rochester know all too well.

I've often wondered, if the council hadn't screwed up the paperwork, would Rochester alone have remained a city, or would the whole Medway unitary have piggybacked on Rochester's status to become a city.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


AndyE
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Aug 12, 2019, 6:51 PM

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Post #14 of 27 (2181 views)
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Re: [DaveU] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Either thing could have been happened, but the default would have been for the City of Rochester upon Medway to appoint trustees to hold the city charter. That is what Bath and Hereford both did in the late 90s when they found themselves in a comparable position to Rochester (and Chester and Durham have done more recently), and so it is still Bath and not Bath And North East Somerset which has city status.

The Mayor of Bath of the time did some research into this matter, and wrote to both Hereford and Rochester advising them of what they needed to do. Hereford did it; Rochester for some reason chose not to. This didn't come to public attention until four years later, and at the time the former council leader claimed that he had never been told what needed to be done. This was soon shown to be untrue, and there has never been any satisfactory explanation for why the former City of Rochester upon Medway apparently deliberately chose to abandon city status.

It would also have been possible for Medway to have petitioned the Queen to inherit Rochester's city status, but precedent says that the Queen will refuse any such request if the name of the new authority does not include the name of the city. Medway Council has apparently been told by the Queen's people that the name of the authority would have be changed to include the word Rochester for any application even to be considered.


spen666
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Aug 13, 2019, 9:45 AM

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Post #15 of 27 (1917 views)
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Re: [AndyE] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Either thing could have been happened, but the default would have been for the City of Rochester upon Medway to appoint trustees to hold the city charter. That is what Bath and Hereford both did in the late 90s when they found themselves in a comparable position to Rochester (and Chester and Durham have done more recently), and so it is still Bath and not Bath And North East Somerset which has city status.

The Mayor of Bath of the time did some research into this matter, and wrote to both Hereford and Rochester advising them of what they needed to do. Hereford did it; Rochester for some reason chose not to. This didn't come to public attention until four years later, and at the time the former council leader claimed that he had never been told what needed to be done. This was soon shown to be untrue, and there has never been any satisfactory explanation for why the former City of Rochester upon Medway apparently deliberately chose to abandon city status.

It would also have been possible for Medway to have petitioned the Queen to inherit Rochester's city status, but precedent says that the Queen will refuse any such request if the name of the new authority does not include the name of the city. Medway Council has apparently been told by the Queen's people that the name of the authority would have be changed to include the word Rochester for any application even to be considered.



Is there a negative aspect to retaining city status?

Just wondering if there were reasons why Rochester chose not to remain a city


shimtoan
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Aug 13, 2019, 12:25 PM

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Post #16 of 27 (1822 views)
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Re: [spen666] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Either thing could have been happened, but the default would have been for the City of Rochester upon Medway to appoint trustees to hold the city charter. That is what Bath and Hereford both did in the late 90s when they found themselves in a comparable position to Rochester (and Chester and Durham have done more recently), and so it is still Bath and not Bath And North East Somerset which has city status.

The Mayor of Bath of the time did some research into this matter, and wrote to both Hereford and Rochester advising them of what they needed to do. Hereford did it; Rochester for some reason chose not to. This didn't come to public attention until four years later, and at the time the former council leader claimed that he had never been told what needed to be done. This was soon shown to be untrue, and there has never been any satisfactory explanation for why the former City of Rochester upon Medway apparently deliberately chose to abandon city status.

It would also have been possible for Medway to have petitioned the Queen to inherit Rochester's city status, but precedent says that the Queen will refuse any such request if the name of the new authority does not include the name of the city. Medway Council has apparently been told by the Queen's people that the name of the authority would have be changed to include the word Rochester for any application even to be considered.



Is there a negative aspect to retaining city status?

Just wondering if there were reasons why Rochester chose not to remain a city

My understanding is that the people in charge presumed the City would retain it's status, unaware that a change of local government type would result in loss of status unless amended



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


Reborn Yellow
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Aug 13, 2019, 2:44 PM

Posts: 235
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Re: [shimtoan] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A few places became cities after establishing football clubs, so the clubs did or do not carry the name 'city' (not that it is compulsory) such as Derby, Wolverhampton, Leicester, Brighton and Nottingham. Although Nottingham had the new football ground named in honour.


Tykeoldboy
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Aug 13, 2019, 3:21 PM

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Post #18 of 27 (1694 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A few places became cities after establishing football clubs, so the clubs did or do not carry the name 'city' (not that it is compulsory) such as Derby, Wolverhampton, Leicester, Brighton and Nottingham. Although Nottingham had the new football ground named in honour.

Despite not actually being located in the city.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Tykeoldboy
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Aug 13, 2019, 3:29 PM

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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Newcastle is a city although it's official name is Newcastle upon Tyne. There is a Newcastle City football club which is junior club. Newcastle United were formed from a merger of Newcastle East End FC and Newcastle West End FC to become Newcastle United FC even though this merger happened 10 years after Newcastle became a city



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Reborn Yellow
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Aug 13, 2019, 4:10 PM

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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The city boundary was moved to exclude Trent Bridge after the CG was built.


Tykeoldboy
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Aug 13, 2019, 6:59 PM

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Post #21 of 27 (1499 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The city boundary was moved to exclude Trent Bridge after the CG was built.


You learn something new everyday............. no matter how old you are Smile



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


kirby knitters
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Aug 13, 2019, 8:24 PM

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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The city boundary was moved to exclude Trent Bridge after the CG was built.


You learn something new everyday............. no matter how old you are Smile

Very interesting but why was the boundary moved to exclude TB?


ictoan
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Aug 13, 2019, 10:14 PM

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Post #23 of 27 (1384 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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A few places became cities after establishing football clubs, so the clubs did or do not carry the name 'city' (not that it is compulsory) such as Derby, Wolverhampton, Leicester, Brighton and Nottingham. Although Nottingham had the new football ground named in honour.


To be pedantic, City status is conferred on the two towns of Brighton AND Hove not Brighton alone. That is one of the reasons there was a lot of opposition to Whitehawk being renamed Brighton City.



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AndyE
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Aug 13, 2019, 11:02 PM

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Re: [shimtoan] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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My understanding is that the people in charge presumed the City would retain it's status, unaware that a change of local government type would result in loss of status unless amended


That is certainly the explanation which the people who were no longer in charge attempted when the matter came to light four years after the event. Unfortunately for those people, it is demonstrably untrue.

The local newspaper did some digging and discovered the correspondence with Bath, and the new Medway Council (not controlled by the same party which had controlled City of Rochester upon Medway Council at dissolution) discovered an old minute acknowledging that correspondence and voting not to act on it.

All rather unsatisfactory, and seems unlikely ever to be properly explained. None of the political parties ever mention it as an example of another party's uselessness.


In other city trivia, the City of Salisbury has officially only been so named since 2009. The city status conferred in 1227 created the City of New Sarum, and the legal position until 2009 was that Salisbury was the common name of the town within the City of New Sarum.

This only changed when Salisbury was parished, and petitioned the Queen that Salisbury Parish Council be allowed to inherit the city status of New Sarum. The Queen said yes to that, and so the parish council became Salisbury City Council.


shimtoan
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Aug 14, 2019, 9:15 AM

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Re: [kirby knitters] Reading CITY name [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The city boundary was moved to exclude Trent Bridge after the CG was built.


You learn something new everyday............. no matter how old you are Smile

Very interesting but why was the boundary moved to exclude TB?

Not been able to find any information other than it was 1952, when Wilford became part of the City.
IIRC, Nottingham City Council still own the land the City Ground sits on, with the CG being in the County and the Borough of Rushcliffe



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation

(This post was edited by shimtoan on Aug 14, 2019, 9:16 AM)

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