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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
London City FC (new club)

 

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kimbo_king
Youth Team Regular

Jul 10, 2019, 7:24 PM

Posts: 262
Location: Leeds
Team(s): SWFC

Post #51 of 90 (2138 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was going to reply to point out how many times its been tried and how it will fil.

That is until I watched the video that is narrated by True Geordie and features Laurence McKenna. With YouTube 'celebrities' I can see it working.

The merchandise & logo looks great!


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 10, 2019, 7:28 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #52 of 90 (2131 views)
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Re: [kimbo_king] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I was going to reply to point out how many times its been tried and how it will fil.

That is until I watched the video that is narrated by True Geordie and features Laurence McKenna. With YouTube 'celebrities' I can see it working.

The merchandise & logo looks great!


Thank you, your positive feedback means a lot!


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jul 10, 2019, 7:47 PM

Posts: 18848
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #53 of 90 (2109 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I don't know why I said "whole" stadium, just the home stands which was the south terrace, west stand and the community block in the east stand. Bear in mind tickets were given for every available seat which didn't include season ticket seats, directors area seats and away end so my mistake for saying "whole".. I never said to capacity though but looking at the previous doncaster match which was a much more important game and around 800 fans were away fans compared to newport's 150 or so.

Hopefully people can see with their eyes and we can move on from the matter


The Barnet lad on here stated the attendance was 2362. You might not know why you said you "filled the whole stadium" but most of your audience on here will now have a view. Unfortunate.

The overriding point is you have a dream and want to fulfil it using other people's money. Let's hope the picture you paint to your potential investors is a lot more life-like than the one you painted for us in this instance.


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 10, 2019, 8:32 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #54 of 90 (2048 views)
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Re: [paulh66] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I don't know why I said "whole" stadium, just the home stands which was the south terrace, west stand and the community block in the east stand. Bear in mind tickets were given for every available seat which didn't include season ticket seats, directors area seats and away end so my mistake for saying "whole".. I never said to capacity though but looking at the previous doncaster match which was a much more important game and around 800 fans were away fans compared to newport's 150 or so.

Hopefully people can see with their eyes and we can move on from the matter


The Barnet lad on here stated the attendance was 2362. You might not know why you said you "filled the whole stadium" but most of your audience on here will now have a view. Unfortunate.

The overriding point is you have a dream and want to fulfil it using other people's money. Let's hope the picture you paint to your potential investors is a lot more life-like than the one you painted for us in this instance.


I also said I had a bustup with the chairman.. Surely that is more detrimental? If I had anything to hide or was trying to make myself look good I would not have included that part.

I won't be "painting a picture" with investors as I will be using crowdcube which is FCA regulated so every word in the investment pitch will be verified and double verified. I cannot stress more that it will not be my dream using other people's money as decisions will be made on a democratic vote so if the majority vote to change the name to Islington Wanderers FC and change the home kit to bright pink that decision will be final.

The current name, logo etc is just a starting block, which in my mind believes to hold some value but if it doesn't then I won't argue with that


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 10, 2019, 8:37 PM

Posts: 7323
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

Post #55 of 90 (2033 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I was going to reply to point out how many times its been tried and how it will fil.

That is until I watched the video that is narrated by True Geordie and features Laurence McKenna. With YouTube 'celebrities' I can see it working.

The merchandise & logo looks great!


Thank you, your positive feedback means a lot!


And that will be your downfall. You only want feedback that says you're fantastic. I could point out the flaws in your trademark comments , but I'll sit back and wait for your visit to Woodside Park in 2024/25 (possibly in Conf North) and The Abbey a few yesrs later. I can't possibly see how it can fail.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jul 10, 2019, 8:46 PM

Posts: 18848
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #56 of 90 (2018 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A bust up with an unpopular chairman arguably adds to the kudos you're trying to convey.

It's your baby, you're the one talking about getting investors on board, your investment pitch IS the picture you paint and hopefully in this instance it will be regulated, and heavily so, for the reasons explained.

But I won't be investing so I'm out. Tongue


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 10, 2019, 9:02 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #57 of 90 (1988 views)
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Re: [ladderman] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I was going to reply to point out how many times its been tried and how it will fil.

That is until I watched the video that is narrated by True Geordie and features Laurence McKenna. With YouTube 'celebrities' I can see it working.

The merchandise & logo looks great!


Thank you, your positive feedback means a lot!


And that will be your downfall. You only want feedback that says you're fantastic. I could point out the flaws in your trademark comments , but I'll sit back and wait for your visit to Woodside Park in 2024/25 (possibly in Conf North) and The Abbey a few yesrs later. I can't possibly see how it can fail.


I'm all ears.. Don't hold back on the flaws


kidology
Reserve Team Regular

Jul 11, 2019, 8:27 PM

Posts: 675
Location: Burnham, Buckinghamshire
Team(s): Barnet (when in Barnet), Truro City

Post #58 of 90 (1642 views)
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Re: [paulh66] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I don't know why I said "whole" stadium, just the home stands which was the south terrace, west stand and the community block in the east stand. Bear in mind tickets were given for every available seat which didn't include season ticket seats, directors area seats and away end so my mistake for saying "whole".. I never said to capacity though but looking at the previous doncaster match which was a much more important game and around 800 fans were away fans compared to newport's 150 or so.

Hopefully people can see with their eyes and we can move on from the matter


The Barnet lad on here stated the attendance was 2362. You might not know why you said you "filled the whole stadium" but most of your audience on here will now have a view. Unfortunate.

The overriding point is you have a dream and want to fulfil it using other people's money. Let's hope the picture you paint to your potential investors is a lot more life-like than the one you painted for us in this instance.


You didn't just say the whole stadium, what you actually said was "I had a bust up with the chairman after I filled the whole stadium by giving away thousands of free tickets so left on a mutual agreement".

At which point I checked my records for the attendance and then compared it to the previous Saturday when we had a few more supporters, albeit I agree completely that Doncaster had a far greater support than Newport, and it became clear that the whole stadium was not full, and that your idea of thousands of free tickets must be somewhat different from mine.

However, Paul is right. Not only did that comment immediately damage your credibility, but the whole story about the bust up with Kleanthous just calls into question your judgment of character in the first place, as he known for being a notoriously hard man to do business with. So aside from your wilful exaggeration with the tickets comment, it makes we wonder what kind of research you did in the first place before you started doing "business" with Barnet FC? And that in turn makes me question any future decisions you may make with regards to London City.

First impressions eh?


andymackem
Junior Team Star

Jul 11, 2019, 9:36 PM

Posts: 92
Location: Durham
Team(s): Sunderland, Dynamo Moscow, Spennymoor Town

Post #59 of 90 (1587 views)
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Re: [kidology] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Very much a view from outside here. I'm not from London, don't have any strong loyalties to any part of London, nor the city as a whole. So, when I lived there (2000-2002), there wasn't much that would persuade me to adopt any team. In the end, I started freelance reporting and just went where I was asked to go.

So, what does your London City FC offer someone like me? Why would I buy my share, cast my one vote (among 500, so not all that influential) and follow a team at Step 7, rather than watch more established clubs? You're trying to break into a competitive market and persuade me to make a major emotional commitment ... and I don't see what you're offering to convince me.



http://groundhoppers.blog - watching sports around the world
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B074LZ3T2L - Ancients and Mariners, my e-book about 2016-17 in the Northern League. A 'diverting and compelling' read for the price of a pint at most Northern League clubhouses.


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 8:41 AM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #60 of 90 (1376 views)
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Re: [kidology] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You seriously need to think about starting a new barnet thread or something because the original post was " But maybe the process of starting below step 7 and enjoying the journey of rising up the pyramid organically could be the best way to go at it?

The question I have is.. are people now pessimistic about large scale fan ownership ideas or can it still be done if started lower down the pyramid on a lower budget? "

Hypothetically speaking I handed over the idea to a close friend or family member.. Are you still gonna find a way to link Barnet into the discussion?


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 9:02 AM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #61 of 90 (1357 views)
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Re: [andymackem] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Very much a view from outside here. I'm not from London, don't have any strong loyalties to any part of London, nor the city as a whole. So, when I lived there (2000-2002), there wasn't much that would persuade me to adopt any team. In the end, I started freelance reporting and just went where I was asked to go.

So, what does your London City FC offer someone like me? Why would I buy my share, cast my one vote (among 500, so not all that influential) and follow a team at Step 7, rather than watch more established clubs? You're trying to break into a competitive market and persuade me to make a major emotional commitment ... and I don't see what you're offering to convince me.


I am not convincing you to do anything and will not be looking for investment from you. Where did you get that idea? If you have had no interest in the MyFootballClub/OWNAFC projects then you are not my target market. Please look at the original post because all it contained was a simple question. I am fully aware it will take a good 10-20 years to build a stable fan base which is why I said ORGANICALLY. This isn't dragon's den people.. It was supposed to be a simple discussion on why 100% fan owned club startups have failed not a canvas for business.


(This post was edited by jdbutler331 on Jul 12, 2019, 9:03 AM)


Cris
Youth Team Star

Jul 12, 2019, 9:27 AM

Posts: 316
Location: Birmingham
Team(s): Bromsgrove Sporting

Post #62 of 90 (1319 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The question I have is.. are people now pessimistic about large scale fan ownership ideas or can it still be done if started lower down the pyramid on a lower budget?


Iím order to have large scale fan ownership, you need to have fans. Fan ownership is a model that has proven to work, I donít think there are many people who are pessimistic about it. What people are pessimistic about is fan ownership of clubs who have no fans, it just plain illogical.

There seems to be multiple contradictions in your plan, you want venture capital funding but also want fan ownership and control, how does that work? You want ďfansĒ to make all the decisions about the club yet youíve already decided on the name, the league and to push for promotion every year, what if thatís not what ďfansĒ want? You want rapid promotion and organic growth, you canít have both.

Involving everyone in every minor aspect of a football club just canít work, thereís a reason why no business is run like that. Thatís not how successful fan ownership works, they elect a board to run the club and thatís really the end of individual fan decision making until the next year when they vote again.

No decent manager is going to want to go close to a club if they have every decision made for them via a poll.

The only way I can see a model like this working is if someone was willing to subsidise it almost entirely and with a lot of money. But why would anyone do that, spend tons of their own money but have all the decisions made by a bunch of randoms whoíve paid a tenner.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jul 12, 2019, 9:33 AM

Posts: 18848
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #63 of 90 (1309 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

None have worked. Failure to face up to, tackle or overcome the issues raised on this thread - credibility, financial/emotional buy-in and maintaining interest - possibly explains why.


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 1:15 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #64 of 90 (1211 views)
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Re: [Cris] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This was the insight I was looking for, thank you. Venture capital will fund the foundations of the club (Facilities, staffing, admin costs) basically everything needed to build a self-sustaining club. From there onwards the introduction of fan voting can be phased in and of course what will all be explained in full details on the initial round. I did state in post #54 about the name etc, nothing is set in stone.

When you say fan ownership of clubs who have no fans it brings me back to the OWNAFC issue. When they failed to purchase a club, could it have worked if they just started a brand new club instead of closing it down? I can name many teams that have formed in the last 3 or 4 years that have a large fan base (post #44) .

I guess time will tell because i'm aware that 99% of startups fail but failure is subjective in football. Arsenal fans see finishing 5th as a failure but Wolves fans would see it as a success even if both teams have the same budget


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 1:28 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #65 of 90 (1201 views)
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Re: [paulh66] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
None have worked. Failure to face up to, tackle or overcome the issues raised on this thread - credibility, financial/emotional buy-in and maintaining interest - possibly explains why.


See posts 60, 61 and 64. Its more of people's failure to read than mine to face up to issues.

Its a simple timeline - interest is maintained when fans have formed an emotional bond. Emotional bond comes when fans are getting good value ((post #44)). Good value comes with a good financial model (post #50)


Cris
Youth Team Star

Jul 12, 2019, 1:41 PM

Posts: 316
Location: Birmingham
Team(s): Bromsgrove Sporting

Post #66 of 90 (1181 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
None have worked. Failure to face up to, tackle or overcome the issues raised on this thread - credibility, financial/emotional buy-in and maintaining interest - possibly explains why.


See posts 60, 61 and 64. Its more of people's failure to read than mine to face up to issues.

Its a simple timeline - interest is maintained when fans have formed an emotional bond. Emotional bond comes when fans are getting good value ((post #44)). Good value comes with a good financial model (post #50)


Who are these fans? Where are they coming from?

Thereís no profitable model for setting up a brand new step 7 team with no routes in a community, even then profitable step 7 clubs can be measured on one hand. Non league football is notoriously difficult to make money from, even long established clubs with big fan bases struggle.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jul 12, 2019, 1:50 PM

Posts: 18848
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #67 of 90 (1171 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
None have worked. Failure to face up to, tackle or overcome the issues raised on this thread - credibility, financial/emotional buy-in and maintaining interest - possibly explains why.


See posts 60, 61 and 64. Its more of people's failure to read than mine to face up to issues.

Its a simple timeline - interest is maintained when fans have formed an emotional bond. Emotional bond comes when fans are getting good value ((post #44)). Good value comes with a good financial model (post #50)


You are impossible - you asked for views, you've got them; you asked a simple question, you've got a simple answer. Do what you like with what you've been given but, if you've got all the answers yourself, go and make the thing work instead of just sitting on it for three years and talking about it (post #19).


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jul 12, 2019, 2:23 PM)


leohoenig
Administrator

Jul 12, 2019, 2:41 PM

Posts: 13307
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #68 of 90 (1111 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The idea of internet fan ownership of a club is interesting - but two attempts at it have already failed.

The basic problem with almost every football club at semi-professional levels is how to raise enough income to meet the costs.

The majority cope by persuading some businesses or individuals to foot the costs. The clubs that rise quickly through the leagues are almost always supported by one or two individuals who have decided to fund them. This is of course may be direct funding, or through company sponsorship or in some cases running the club as a subsidary of a larger company.

While many small clubs are "fan run", in so far as they have a small committee or board in charge, they still rely on a relatively small number of people and/or companies for finance.

The exceptions are those such as FC United and AFC Wimbledon who have managed to lean more heavily on their supporter base. This was particularly true in the start up and first years of both clubs

Hashtag United is the other fundamentally different club. They had the sense to set up their youtube channel and see that it was successful before taking themselves out of friendly football and into the world of semi-professional game. They are relying on the number of views their videos can get in order to keep running the club. There may well be room for further clubs to run on this model.

There is, I feel, a limit to the level a team such as Hashtag can reach. I see two reasons for this
1) It is unlikely that the number of viewers will rise in proportion to the costs as the club moves up through the divisions
2) Some of the higher divisions will restrict the rights to use match action within the videos

It is also possible that the channel loses subscribers as time progresses, which will reduce their ability to fund the club. However, good presentation may well mean that an unsuccesful season does not impinge on the channel's success.

Hashtag, of course is not interactive. The viewers have no input into the club.

It is possible to fully democracise a club so as every shareholder can take part in every decision, rather than the shareholders electing the executive (board) and the executive then making the decisions.

But football club boards only meet once of twice a month, sometimes less frequently - and much of the business is mundane. Do you think a club can maintain interest if the internet membership if deciding whether or not to authorise a budget to paint the ladies lavatories?

A football club board does make the decision of when to change managers and gets involved in the contract details of individual players. In many cases, this is delegated to a select few with the board specifying only the budget. I am not certain that this detail, interesting as it maybe can be done on an interactive forum.

Myfootballclub scaled back from its original intention to allow fans to vote on team selection, let alone in match decisions. If this could be offered on-line, then it would be something that I can see people signing up for.

I have my suspicions that the iteration that did not buy Hednesford was nothing more than a scam. I await the news that would disprove this (i.e. that all those who bought into the idea have had their monies refunded in full).

The proposals on this thread seem to fall into a void of uncertain proposals and expectations. While the OP may have signed up with a group, he will need to be far more specific with his business plans to get any cash from them. If he is going down the subscription route then he needs to have significant start up funding.

If I was looking to start a club with the intention of it beginning at Step 7 or even slightly further down the pyramid, then I would not start in London. I would be looking for a gap in the market. I would be looking for somewhere that has a facility to play in that I could get for little expense.

I would certainly not be looking in London, it is possible the worst possible location for such a venture. It is much more difficult to think where a good position would be



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 5:49 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #69 of 90 (995 views)
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Re: [Cris] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Who are these fans? Where are they coming from?

Thereís no profitable model for setting up a brand new step 7 team with no routes in a community, even then profitable step 7 clubs can be measured on one hand. Non league football is notoriously difficult to make money from, even long established clubs with big fan bases struggle.


https://companycheck.co.uk/...NITED-LTD/financials

And that was before they even entered step 6. The younger generation football is different now and revenue comes from online attention.

Referring back to post #44 and bear in mind its a Sunday league team not even step 7 https://youtu.be/sp0bIx9IU00?t=469


marinersteve
Youth Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 6:16 PM

Posts: 254
Location: Brandon, Vermont, USA
Team(s): South Shields

Post #70 of 90 (960 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As someone from the NE living in the US and with no interest in London I have to say that it all just sounds like a bad idea to me - and if successful could impact negatively on other local clubs struggling to survive and who need the help more//// I can't see any reason for setting up new clubs at all unless in an area where closures have decimated the no. of clubs in existence.



SandDancer in Exile


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 6:22 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #71 of 90 (960 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hashtag United have recently done an interactive academy series where viewers watch trials of potential players and vote for their favorite. From what I can see over 350,000 watched the final video and that is more than their match highlights. As far as I know the whole series was subsidised by Adidas due to the expected high number of viewers.

There are a few teams following the Hashtag model such as Rising Ballers, rebel fc, f2fc, palmers fc all terrible names and all based in greater London/essex. Once you have the attention of the younger generation you are on to a winner. Lets not forget a bunch of lads who could barely play football filled out a Charlton's ground https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_ZibIWNKoM

London would be the best area for raising startup funding, more significantly in the city. There is a football centre near the financial district where a lot of companies enter into the corporate leagues. I'm not saying they would jump at the opportunity to sponsor/invest but if it got to the point in a few years where match highlights were getting high numbers then their logo on the front of the shirt, side of the pitch would bring in revenue.


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 12, 2019, 6:28 PM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #72 of 90 (951 views)
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Re: [marinersteve] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As someone from the NE living in the US and with no interest in London I have to say that it all just sounds like a bad idea to me - and if successful could impact negatively on other local clubs struggling to survive and who need the help more//// I can't see any reason for setting up new clubs at all unless in an area where closures have decimated the no. of clubs in existence.


That's football though, it's a competition at the end of the day. Spurs and Chelsea recent success has had a negative effect on Arsenal's success. NE England has a population of 7 million.. London alone has a population of 8 million. I'm sure there's enough support to go around, if not then more teams need to consider a merger


geemickey
Junior Team Sub

Jul 12, 2019, 7:21 PM

Posts: 26
Location:
Team(s):

Post #73 of 90 (904 views)
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Re: [jdbutler331] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I wish you luck with the idea BUT :

I'm reminded of the old joke that you can make a small fortune
out of non-league football - but you have to start with a large one !!


bigjmc
Youth Team Sub

Jul 12, 2019, 8:25 PM

Posts: 168
Location:
Team(s): Guiseley

Post #74 of 90 (858 views)
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Re: [geemickey] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can't see anyone with any quodos investing in a new football club as the model just doesn't produce any profit. Take away the TV money and most of the Premier League & EFL clubs just couldn't survive. It's even tougher in non-league without a benefactor(s) and the youth market is norotoriously fickle as it is dependent on constantly changing trends as most do not have the attention span for the long haul. I wish you luck but like others I think it's probably a non starter.


jdbutler331
Junior Team Regular

Jul 13, 2019, 7:41 AM

Posts: 41
Location: London
Team(s): Arsenal, Brentford

Post #75 of 90 (750 views)
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Re: [bigjmc] London City FC (new club) [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I look forward to reporting back in a few months on whether things have materialised or not. Worst case scenario I don't get investment, the growing online presence on social media should be enough to keep the club progressing organically especially as every match will be filmed by us

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