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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA statement on future pyramid

 

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AndyE
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May 12, 2019, 5:07 PM

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Post #476 of 531 (5154 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A couple of points which don't seem to have been made.

We are told that there are more clubs who more-or-less have the facilities to move up to Step 6 in the Midlands than there are elsewhere. I'm sure that is partly to do with the existing league structures, but is it also to do with the near-impossibility of getting permission for floodlights in much of the south? If the football team from somewhere in the Home Counties that thinks it's posh wanted to put up floodlights, the local reaction would be "Euurghh, football, there'd be ten thousand common people coming into our nice village every week", and the planning application would be refused. A rather less Farage-esque attitude prevails in some other parts of the country.


More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


Cris
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May 12, 2019, 5:32 PM

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Post #477 of 531 (5072 views)
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Re: [AndyE] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A couple of points which don't seem to have been made.

We are told that there are more clubs who more-or-less have the facilities to move up to Step 6 in the Midlands than there are elsewhere. I'm sure that is partly to do with the existing league structures, but is it also to do with the near-impossibility of getting permission for floodlights in much of the south? If the football team from somewhere in the Home Counties that thinks it's posh wanted to put up floodlights, the local reaction would be "Euurghh, football, there'd be ten thousand common people coming into our nice village every week", and the planning application would be refused. A rather less Farage-esque attitude prevails in some other parts of the country.


More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


This is a wonderful example of the kind of self entitlement that leads to so much bias in favour of the South East.

The idea that a team in Orpington are ever going to have regular trips of 3 hours at Step 6 is laughable as is the implication that the rest of country don’t have to contend with bad traffic.


Sarumio
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May 12, 2019, 7:36 PM

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Post #478 of 531 (4722 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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That was just a list of Midlands clubs with floodlights. I'd suggest very few of those clubs could be considered "step 6 ready" and most of them have shown no interest in moving up - indeed some even voluntarily dropped to step 7.


Sorry I have to pick up on this, as I believe it to be quite untrue.

Of the teams I mentioned

Been at Step 6 recently - only at Step 7 due to being relegated:
Coventry Alvis, Bolehall, Wellington Amateurs, Tipton Town, Bustleholme, Willenhall, Bromyard, Gornal Athletic, Retford United, Radcliffe Olympic, Ellistown, Askern, Appleby Frod, Woodford United, Oakham, S&L Corby.

Have applied for Step 6 recently:
Sikh Hunters, Team Dudley, Collingham, Pinxton, Clay Cross, Droitwich Spa, Darlaston Town, Eastwood Hanley, Foley Meir, FC GNG

Which leaves two categories:
Clubs that have voluntarily dropped to Step 7 to regroup
Lincoln MR, Holbrook Sports, Friar Lane & Epworth, Blaby & Whetstone, Dinnington, Kington, Ledbury, Ludlow, Southam

Clubs that have floodlights, most of whom have expressed a plan or intent to go up to Step 6.

Southwell, Bilborough, Blidworth, Cottesmore, Newark Town, Calverton, Sandiacre.

Given the chance - I'd say they'd all take promotion!


paulh66
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May 12, 2019, 7:59 PM

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Post #479 of 531 (4644 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


Sarumio
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May 12, 2019, 8:14 PM

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Post #480 of 531 (4594 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!


windydcfc
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May 12, 2019, 8:17 PM

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Post #481 of 531 (4572 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!



What about Swanage & Herston?


Sarumio
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May 12, 2019, 9:38 PM

Posts: 6253
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Post #482 of 531 (4265 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!



What about Swanage & Herston?


OK Lets fill a division with Swanage Town & Herston, Shrewton, Gillingham Town and Stockbridge. Job done! All of whom have voluntarily dropped to Step 7 and three of whom, despite 2 of which were in a position to, have not applied for promotion back to Step 6 this season.

Hardly parallel to the list of clubs in the Midlands I listed is it!


windydcfc
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May 12, 2019, 9:47 PM

Posts: 10290
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Post #483 of 531 (4217 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

After the constitutions have been set for next season. Add the total number clubs from steps 1-6. Then take that total off 980 & we’ll see how many clubs the FA needs to fill the gaps. Reading the article, it sounded like the FA were just shuffling the pack, instead of adding to it. So I don’t know if they’ll have to find any extra clubs in the Midlands or West London areas.


PaulC
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May 12, 2019, 9:50 PM

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Post #484 of 531 (4197 views)
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Re: [AndyE] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


The footprint of leagues in the SE would continue to be much smaller than elsewhere even if both additional Step 5 leagues were in the nothern half of England.


Unicorn
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May 13, 2019, 7:41 AM

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Post #485 of 531 (3697 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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After the constitutions have been set for next season. Add the total number clubs from steps 1-6. Then take that total off 980 & we’ll see how many clubs the FA needs to fill the gaps. Reading the article, it sounded like the FA were just shuffling the pack, instead of adding to it. So I don’t know if they’ll have to find any extra clubs in the Midlands or West London areas.


Yes hardly any difference. Your right.


leohoenig
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May 13, 2019, 12:38 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If I have it correct, the maximum number of teams, Steps 1-6 for 2019-20 is 976.

For 2020-21, this becomes 980.There will be 24 more teams entering Step 4 from Step 5 than moving the other way, and by addition and knock on, 64 more clubs promoted to Step 5 than moving down.

This is then put against a reduction in the number of teams at Step 6, which for 2019-20 is a maximum of 400 and will decrease to a maximum of 340
So the basis will be a normal promotion and relegation between Step 6 and what lies beneath, with slightly more clubs rising than dropping to make up for the extra four teams and vacancies at steps 1-6, (either because the leagues are undersunscribed or because teams fail to finish the season).

From what I have read, the FA are generally committed to one team promoted per Step 7, subject to a team reaching all qualification requirements. It is unlikely that enough clubs can be found to fill all vacancies, allowing for 40 teams relegated from Step 6, (which should be the rule). One of the few places where the FA has allowed itself geographical discretion is in selecting extra clubs to go up to Step 7



Fat AND Pompous.
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Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



ARNOLD241
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May 13, 2019, 12:56 PM

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Post #487 of 531 (3064 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just looking at the numbers myself Leo.
Wazza has it as 396 at Step 6 next season. Two divisions being only 18 teams.


windydcfc
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Jun 20, 2019, 5:04 PM

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Post #488 of 531 (1026 views)
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Re: [ARNOLD241] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If my calculations are correct, there are now 963 clubs at steps 1-6 for this season. The FA requirement to fill all the leagues for the season after next is 980. With the bottom 2 clubs in each of the step 6 league’s liable for relegation. The FA will be looking for a minimum of 17 clubs & a maximum of 57 clubs from step 7 next season.


leohoenig
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Jun 20, 2019, 5:23 PM

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The FA will be looking for a minimum of 17 clubs & a maximum of 57 clubs from step 7 next season.


Followed by a minimum of 343 posts on here as to what the FA are doing (and more specifically what they are doing wrong), and why



Fat AND Pompous.
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blackdouglas
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Jun 20, 2019, 6:07 PM

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Post #490 of 531 (942 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


Quote
Followed by a minimum of 343 posts on here as to what the FA are doing (and more specifically what they are doing wrong), and why


Followed by another 150 posts, spreadsheets, graphs, & tables to show how the northern half of the country has been short-changed again.




Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


windydcfc
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Jun 20, 2019, 6:57 PM

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Post #491 of 531 (884 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The FA will be looking for a minimum of 17 clubs & a maximum of 57 clubs from step 7 next season.


Followed by a minimum of 343 posts on here as to what the FA are doing (and more specifically what they are doing wrong), and why



Just reading the regs that Paul66 has just posted. A maximum of 40 clubs will be promoted from step 7.
Step6and7
At the end of the Regular Playing Season the Clubs in the bottom two positions of each of the twenty Step 6 divisions will be liable to relegation.
All Step 7 Clubs seeking promotion to Step 6 must make application using the prescribed form direct to The Association, copied to their existing League, by 31st December in the relevant year. In order to be considered for promotion Clubs must finish in 1st position in their Step 7 league. If the Club finishing in 1st position does not wish to be promoted or fails to meet the entry criteria then the club finishing in 2nd position will be eligible for promotion. If the club in 2nd position does not seek promotion or fails to meet the entry criteria then clubs down to 5th position may be considered for promotion provided that they meet the appropriate entry criteria. Clubs finishing below 5th position may not be considered for promotion and, for this season only, more than one club may be considered from each League. Each application must be accompanied by the agreed application fee, as determined by the Committee, which is non-refundable.
No more than 40 Clubs will be promoted from Step 7. If more than 40 Clubs are eligible for promotion they will be chosen based on a points per match basis. Where the eligible Clubs count does not reach 40 in number, reprieves of Step 6 Clubs shall come into effect on a points per match basis.


Martin9
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Jun 20, 2019, 7:32 PM

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Post #492 of 531 (834 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Given there's a current shortfall of 14 at Step 6, which will rise to 17 once the various changes to step 5 and above are made suspect there'll be some flexibility applied. Doubt more than 40 clubs will apply and be eligible for promotion (even allowing for 2 coming up from a few of the the stronger leagues in midlands) so question will be whether reprieves are made on a PPG basis as per regs or based on geographical considerations, and how many additional reprieves are given to bring some or all divisions up to full complement of 20 teams. a


Mister TwoU
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Jun 20, 2019, 7:46 PM

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Re: [blackdouglas] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Quote
Followed by a minimum of 343 posts on here as to what the FA are doing (and more specifically what they are doing wrong), and why


Followed by another 150 posts, spreadsheets, graphs, & tables to show how the northern half of the country has been short-changed again.



Interspersed with about 450 more posts where two or three posters dig, dig, dig at each other for the pettiest of point-scoring!



Professional cretin.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 20, 2019, 8:42 PM

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Re: [Martin9] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Taking last season’s extra promotion from the NL2 as an example of what could potentially happen at the end of this season. We could see 2 promotions from each of the 3 feeder leagues in the Northeast. There are 3 clubs from the North Riding League looking for promotion this coming season. I personally doubt any extra promotions will be offered to the step 7 league’s in the Midlands/East Coast.


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Jun 20, 2019, 8:44 PM)


southend statto
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Jun 20, 2019, 8:53 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

loved your post - sad, but true


paulh66
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Jun 20, 2019, 9:12 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Facts and evidence-based opinion might also make the odd appearance amongst the guesswork and fantasy. Easily underrated.


Martin9
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Jun 20, 2019, 9:24 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I guess with 4 clubs being promoted and 2 relegated from Northern League step 6, with potentially one only dropping down from step 5 then, to avoid moving clubs from Yorkshire or Cumbria, will take as many as can from Step 7 leagues in area, or reprieve both bottom teams. Other areas like Cornwall and possibly Norfolk/Suffolk may see similarly "assistance" to keep footprints from becoming too large so the Midlands and south east would, as you say, not necessarily benefit from the more than one team per Step 7 league ruling.


Cris
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Jun 20, 2019, 9:34 PM

Posts: 316
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Post #498 of 531 (619 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Taking last season’s extra promotion from the NL2 as an example of what could potentially happen at the end of this season. We could see 2 promotions from each of the 3 feeder leagues in the Northeast. There are 3 clubs from the North Riding League looking for promotion this coming season. I personally doubt any extra promotions will be offered to the step 7 league’s in the Midlands/East Coast.


Surely the lesson from last season is that when the rules aren’t followed, appeals are successful. If extra teams are promoted in the NE when teams in the Midlands have better PPG, then there will be successful appeals.


Cris
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Jun 20, 2019, 9:36 PM

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Post #499 of 531 (612 views)
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Re: [Martin9] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I guess with 4 clubs being promoted and 2 relegated from Northern League step 6, with potentially one only dropping down from step 5 then, to avoid moving clubs from Yorkshire or Cumbria, will take as many as can from Step 7 leagues in area, or reprieve both bottom teams. Other areas like Cornwall and possibly Norfolk/Suffolk may see similarly "assistance" to keep footprints from becoming too large so the Midlands and south east would, as you say, not necessarily benefit from the more than one team per Step 7 league ruling.


It sure how that can be done within the rules.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 20, 2019, 9:45 PM

Posts: 10290
Location: Barnetby
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Re: [Cris] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Taking last season’s extra promotion from the NL2 as an example of what could potentially happen at the end of this season. We could see 2 promotions from each of the 3 feeder leagues in the Northeast. There are 3 clubs from the North Riding League looking for promotion this coming season. I personally doubt any extra promotions will be offered to the step 7 league’s in the Midlands/East Coast.


Surely the lesson from last season is that when the rules aren’t followed, appeals are successful. If extra teams are promoted in the NE when teams in the Midlands have better PPG, then there will be successful appeals.



The rules have changed this season & the ppg basis is only being used in a couple of promotion/relegation issues across all the steps. Between steps 1 & 6 it looks pretty straight forward. Where I think geography will be used is in the extremities(ie the Northern League). Unfortunately the Midlands is losing step 6 league’s, so there the clubs left at step 6 will just be shuffled around. There’s also more step 7 leagues in the Midlands that always produce promotion candidates.


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Jun 20, 2019, 10:03 PM)

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