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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Should they stay or should they go? Step6

 

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Mister TwoU
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May 20, 2019, 7:11 PM

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Post #1 of 26 (9313 views)
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Should they stay or should they go? Step6 Can't Post or Reply Privately

Which Step6 Leagues/Divisions will likely be those sacrificed in order to create the two additional Step5 ones?

Will both processes be 'organic', or will they be 'forced', do we think?



Professional cretin.


Sarumio
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May 20, 2019, 7:37 PM

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Post #2 of 26 (9141 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Which Step6 Leagues/Divisions will likely be those sacrificed in order to create the two additional Step5 ones?

Will both processes be 'organic', or will they be 'forced', do we think?


One of the Hellenic Divisions at Step 6 is nailed on to go.

The other is starting to look increasingly like the West Midlands Regional League Premier.


Brightside
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May 20, 2019, 8:32 PM

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Post #3 of 26 (8837 views)
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Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Hellenic League East should go as the Hellenic moves west.

There should be an extra step 5 division in the Midlands and one fewer step 6 division.

This would only reduce it to 18 step 6 divisions though as there are 3 in underneath the Western Premier



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


Part-Timer
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May 21, 2019, 9:49 AM

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Post #4 of 26 (7951 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The map of what the FA are planning is here https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/...eague-restructuring/. In theory all the leagues are going and being replaced. The organisations currently running Step Six leagues have had to re-apply to run the league in the area in which they are interested.


Brightside
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May 21, 2019, 11:09 AM

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Post #5 of 26 (7724 views)
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Re: [Part-Timer] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The map of what the FA are planning is here https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/...eague-restructuring/. In theory all the leagues are going and being replaced. The organisations currently running Step Six leagues have had to re-apply to run the league in the area in which they are interested.


Thanks for the link, I was looking for that.

I know it is not a like of like comparison as footprints will move.
However

At Step 5
There appears to be a new Step 5 league in the North East Midlands (East Midlands League?) which seems to be needed
There appears to be a new Step 5 league to the West of London (Hellenic East Prem?) which doesn't seem to be needed

At Step 6
There appears to be no footprint for Hellenic East
There also appears to be 2 fewer leagues in the Midlands

Will need to plot Step 5 and 6 teams on the map for 2020/2021 to see how it could look but it appears weird that in most areas the step 5 and step 6 leagues cover similar area, some areas there are more step 6 leagues than step 5 leagues and other areas where there are fewer step 6 leagues than step 5 leagues



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


oftenscore6
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May 22, 2019, 12:26 AM

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Post #6 of 26 (6504 views)
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Re: [Brightside] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It can't be 2 less leagues in the Midlands, cutting one means the clubs will be absorbed into the other divisions around (unless there was preferential mass promotion but that's not the plan). So the other step 6 league will have to come from the other area where there's nowhere near enough teams to fil the divisions - SCE, SC, H1W and ECLS are all short before the top 4 are promoted. I think it'll be H1W that actually disappears, with a shuffle around London to accommodate the H1W teams into neighbouring divisions and transfers to fill the others.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (948) Baza Arcom Progresul Spartac 1-1 Unirea Bascov
With FC United: 133
On the agenda:
21/9 FC United v Warrington Town
24/9 Warrington Town v FC United

(This post was edited by oftenscore6 on May 22, 2019, 12:27 AM)


blackdouglas
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May 22, 2019, 7:03 AM

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Post #7 of 26 (6247 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


Quote
It can't be 2 less leagues in the Midlands, cutting one means the clubs will be absorbed into the other divisions around (unless there was preferential mass promotion but that's not the plan). So the other step 6 league will have to come from the other area where there's nowhere near enough teams to fil the divisions - SCE, SC, H1W and ECLS are all short before the top 4 are promoted. I think it'll be H1W that actually disappears, with a shuffle around London to accommodate the H1W teams into neighbouring divisions and transfers to fill the others.


I'd rather that it be the Hellenic 1(E). With the mooted new (and unpopular on here) Thames Valley Step 5 division, the H1(E) clubs can be used to replace the Step 6 clubs from the SSML, & CCL that are pulled up to populate it.




Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


oftenscore6
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May 23, 2019, 12:31 AM

Posts: 5199
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Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

Post #8 of 26 (4896 views)
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Re: [blackdouglas] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Quote
It can't be 2 less leagues in the Midlands, cutting one means the clubs will be absorbed into the other divisions around (unless there was preferential mass promotion but that's not the plan). So the other step 6 league will have to come from the other area where there's nowhere near enough teams to fil the divisions - SCE, SC, H1W and ECLS are all short before the top 4 are promoted. I think it'll be H1W that actually disappears, with a shuffle around London to accommodate the H1W teams into neighbouring divisions and transfers to fill the others.


I'd rather that it be the Hellenic 1(E). With the mooted new (and unpopular on here) Thames Valley Step 5 division, the H1(E) clubs can be used to replace the Step 6 clubs from the SSML, & CCL that are pulled up to populate it.

Oops, meant H1E!



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (948) Baza Arcom Progresul Spartac 1-1 Unirea Bascov
With FC United: 133
On the agenda:
21/9 FC United v Warrington Town
24/9 Warrington Town v FC United


ramblingrover
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May 23, 2019, 7:34 AM

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Post #9 of 26 (4654 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Hellenic are applying for a second step 5 and 2 step 6 leagues for season 20/21 according to their website.

https://www.hellenicleague.co.uk/club_news/hellenic.html


Unicorn
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May 23, 2019, 7:46 AM

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Post #10 of 26 (4607 views)
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Re: [ramblingrover] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Hellenic are applying for a second step 5 and 2 step 6 leagues for season 20/21 according to their website.

https://www.hellenicleague.co.uk/club_news/hellenic.html


All the leagues have to apply.
I would imagine the word apply could be replaced with respond.


Lionarm
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May 23, 2019, 11:34 AM

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Post #11 of 26 (4138 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

O.K. that makes 'sense'. They are applying to run the new Step 5 "Thames Valley" league and re-applying to run Hellenic W which one can think of as feeding the Hellenic Premier and Hellenic E which one can think of as feeding the new Step 5 "Thames Valley".
There is no easy answer to the original question as all the Step 6 teams are going to be pooled and re-allocated. As we know this affects mostly the clubs on the footprint boundaries, which themselves are elastic. My feeling is that it will have a greater affect on West Mid Reg, Western and NW Counties. I am probably wrong.


oftenscore6
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May 27, 2019, 7:13 PM

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Post #12 of 26 (2574 views)
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Re: [Lionarm] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
O.K. that makes 'sense'. They are applying to run the new Step 5 "Thames Valley" league and re-applying to run Hellenic W which one can think of as feeding the Hellenic Premier and Hellenic E which one can think of as feeding the new Step 5 "Thames Valley".
There is no easy answer to the original question as all the Step 6 teams are going to be pooled and re-allocated. As we know this affects mostly the clubs on the footprint boundaries, which themselves are elastic. My feeling is that it will have a greater affect on West Mid Reg, Western and NW Counties. I am probably wrong.

The people administrating the division are to a fair extent unimportant. But it's clear ther are not enough clubs in the South to keep the number of step 6 divisions there are, even though they include reserve teams that don't feature in the North / Midland step 6 divisions.

Wouldn't surprise me to see the Hellenic lose a step 6 and gain the Thames Valley step 5.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (948) Baza Arcom Progresul Spartac 1-1 Unirea Bascov
With FC United: 133
On the agenda:
21/9 FC United v Warrington Town
24/9 Warrington Town v FC United


Lionarm
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May 28, 2019, 12:05 PM

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Post #13 of 26 (2057 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I see what you are saying.
However, the "Thames Valley" step 5 came as a surprise to most people, but its going to happen. Therefore there has GOT to be a Step 6 below it as well. The reserve teams are another issue, one that I am personally ambivalent about.

In fact as somebody else pointed out, ideally it should be two Step 6 for every Step 5 to make a "pure" pyramid - although 32 leagues at step 6 is a 'step too far' at this time. And the "extra" league in the SW is a precedent that can well be repeated in other places for all kinds of reasons. So I'm not sure that it would necessarily be a good idea or serve any purpose to sacrifice ANY Step 6 at the moment, just as long as "extra" area leagues are aware of promotion limitations. And, of course, there are enough teams. Meanwhile, its fun to play the numbers game.


Unicorn
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May 28, 2019, 12:24 PM

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Post #14 of 26 (2019 views)
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Re: [Lionarm] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree about reserve teams.
It was pointed out the other day that at step 6 there are only 10 reserve / Development teams. I hope thats right .I have not checked it myself.
In the Eastern Senior which is a special case. The Hellenic which seems to me to be facing major change.
And just Dorking Wanderers reserves in the Combined Counties.
Get the 1-2-4-8-16-17 sorted out anyway they can by reprieves or reserves if they have to and then worry about refining the membership.


Brightside
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May 28, 2019, 1:48 PM

Posts: 95
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Post #15 of 26 (1905 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The 1-2-4-8-16-17 seems a bit odd with 2 South West Leagues AND Western one underneath the Western Premier. It's as if somebody hasn't added up that part correctly.

1-2-4-8-16-18 would make more sense now there are 3 leagues under the Western Premier as otherwise at least one Step 5 league won't also have a step 6 league



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing


Reborn Yellow
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May 28, 2019, 3:08 PM

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Post #16 of 26 (1780 views)
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Re: [Brightside] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I wonder of the two SWPs will be treated as one for promotion purposes. They're only going to have two promotion places each compared to four for the others next season.


SWP-Phil
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May 28, 2019, 3:11 PM

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Post #17 of 26 (1777 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The league will be expected to promote 4 next year and 2 there after, but those numbers are from the "league" not from the individual divisions within it.



_______________________________________________

Follow the SW Peninsula League on Twitter: @swpleague

For all the News on the SW Peninsula League go to : www.swpleague.co.uk


Reborn Yellow
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May 28, 2019, 3:16 PM

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Re: [SWP-Phil] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thank you, so in that sense the two divisions will each be treated as 'half a league' to make a total of 16?


windydcfc
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May 28, 2019, 3:19 PM

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Post #19 of 26 (1760 views)
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Re: [SWP-Phil] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The league will be expected to promote 4 next year and 2 there after, but those numbers are from the "league" not from the individual divisions within it.



What happened to the SWPL teams being allowed to turn down promotion? Especially from the Western half of your league.


SWP-Phil
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May 28, 2019, 3:20 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That is still there, if a club can demonstrate that promotion is not in the clubs best interests due to geography then the leagues committee must consider that request, and if turned down they still have the right of appeal.



_______________________________________________

Follow the SW Peninsula League on Twitter: @swpleague

For all the News on the SW Peninsula League go to : www.swpleague.co.uk


windydcfc
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May 28, 2019, 3:28 PM

Posts: 10428
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Post #21 of 26 (1749 views)
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Re: [SWP-Phil] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
That is still there, if a club can demonstrate that promotion is not in the clubs best interests due to geography then the leagues committee must consider that request, and if turned down they still have the right of appeal.



I guess that the more clubs that are promoted from the SWPL into the Western League. The more that the Western League Premier division will gradually move south westwards. It’s a similar scenario to the NL clubs not wanting to join the NPL. The more that do, the easier it becomes. Although I do appreciate that the transport networks are pretty dreadful in your area.


HarryC
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May 28, 2019, 5:10 PM

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Post #22 of 26 (1624 views)
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Re: [Brightside] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The 1-2-4-8-16-17 seems a bit odd with 2 South West Leagues AND Western one underneath the Western Premier. It's as if somebody hasn't added up that part correctly.

1-2-4-8-16-18 would make more sense now there are 3 leagues under the Western Premier as otherwise at least one Step 5 league won't also have a step 6 league


i believe the proposed new step 5 "Thames Valley" division won't have its own dedicated step 6 feeder, as it will overlap part of the step 6 divisions of Combined Counties One, Hellenic One West, South Midlands One (& possibly Wessex One), those step 6 footprints not matching the step 5 footprits of those Premier divisions.


kivo
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May 28, 2019, 6:12 PM

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Post #23 of 26 (1564 views)
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Re: [HarryC] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If the perfect pyramid can't be implemented down to Step 6 (32 divisions), then there at least has to be some sort of compromise - maybe 24 divisions?

Having one more division at Step 6 than there is at Step 5 doesn't make any sense.

You could have the eight Step 5 leagues with one Step 6 feeder, and eight Step 5 leagues with two Step 6 feeders. Based on which leagues have clubs travelling most - off top of my head that'd be -

Eastern Counties League
Midland League
Northern League
Northern Counties East League
North West Counties League
United Counties League
Wessex League
Western League


ramblingrover
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May 28, 2019, 7:23 PM

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Post #24 of 26 (1482 views)
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Re: [kivo] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Western League at step 5 already has 3 feeders - its own Division 1 and the 2 SWPL step 6's. Can't see that reducing to 2 anytime soon - unless so many SWPL clubs take promotion that Western Prem becomes effectively covering the SWPL area at step 5.

I'd probably have abolished step 6 as well as step 7 and had the new regional feeder leagues as County Leagues feeding into Step 5, retaining the proposed 16 step 5 leagues with flexible boundaries. Change the funding model so those in the regional leagues can access the grants to add lights and infrastructure.


Brightside
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May 28, 2019, 8:45 PM

Posts: 95
Location: North Essex
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Post #25 of 26 (1395 views)
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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Should they stay or should they go? Step6 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Thank you, so in that sense the two divisions will each be treated as 'half a league' to make a total of 16?


That is still 1 league and 2 half leagues promoting to the Western Premier and then in the rest of the country there are 14 step 6 leagues promoting to 15 step 5 leagues. Just seems a little odd.

As mentioned above it is around the Thames Valley area where there may be a one less step 6 league.

I guess we need to see a projection of all potential step 5 and 6 clubs



How 2020/2021 could look like (based on 2018/2019)

Non League Projections - 2020/21 - https://docs.google.com/...fAI/edit?usp=sharing

Step 1 - https://drive.google.com/...1zLX5Ju5&usp=sharing
Step 2 - https://drive.google.com/...REZzvDIU&usp=sharing
Step 3 - https://drive.google.com/...GYGtPp8H&usp=sharing
Step 4 - https://drive.google.com/...DJBN8cC-&usp=sharing
Alternative - https://drive.google.com/...vkdOju1Q&usp=sharing
Step 5 - https://drive.google.com/...I48iX_bL&usp=sharing
Step 6 - https://drive.google.com/...siBvGhTK&usp=sharing or https://drive.google.com/...pNmsB_JW&usp=sharing

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