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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: General Discussion:
Non-League Rule Change Experiments Over The Years

 



London Harrier
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Mar 25, 2019, 2:41 PM

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Non-League Rule Change Experiments Over The Years Can't Post or Reply Privately

In light of the proposed Sin Bin experiment at Steps 5 and 6 next seasons, what other non-League only rule change experiments have there been over the years? I’ll start with:

1968-1979 (?): Midland Floodlit Cup - 10PTS for a win, 5PTS for a draw, 1PT for every goal scored.
1983-87: GM Vauxhall Conference - 2 points for a home win, 3 points for an away win, 1 point for a draw.
1987/88: GM Vauxhall Conference - No offside from free kicks.
1994/95: Isthmian League - Kick-ins as well as throw ins.
2017/18 (?) - Sin bins below Step 7.
2019/20 - Sin bins to be introduced at Step 7 (Is this still the case?)

Any others? Perhaps some ideas were proposed but never actually implemented?


(This post was edited by London Harrier on Mar 25, 2019, 6:48 PM)


chrisb
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Mar 25, 2019, 3:48 PM

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Certainly in the Mid Wales League for one season during the 1990s and maybe other Welsh leagues.

A player couldn't be flagged offside if the ball was played forward over the halfway line from inside his team's own half



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Richard Rundle
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Sin bins will be at Step 5 & 6 as well next season.

Another one currently operating at "recreational" level is repeated substituions.


Bantam Cymraeg
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In Reply To
Certainly in the Mid Wales League for one season during the 1990s and maybe other Welsh leagues.

A player couldn't be flagged offside if the ball was played forward over the halfway line from inside his team's own half

Also in the Welsh Alliance. Horrible to watch - teams tended to pass the ball back to a defender in their own half, who would then hoof it up to the forwards who couldn't then be offside. Glad it was ditched.


spen666
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Mar 26, 2019, 9:09 AM

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In Reply To
In light of the proposed Sin Bin experiment at Steps 5 and 6 next seasons, what other non-League only rule change experiments have there been over the years? I’ll start with:

1968-1979 (?): Midland Floodlit Cup - 10PTS for a win, 5PTS for a draw, 1PT for every goal scored.
1983-87: GM Vauxhall Conference - 2 points for a home win, 3 points for an away win, 1 point for a draw.
1987/88: GM Vauxhall Conference - No offside from free kicks.
1994/95: Isthmian League - Kick-ins as well as throw ins.
2017/18 (?) - Sin bins below Step 7.
2019/20 - Sin bins to be introduced at Step 7 (Is this still the case?)

Any others? Perhaps some ideas were proposed but never actually implemented?



Missed perhaps the most famouys and most successful one - 3 pts for a win. Trialled in Rothmans Northern, Isthmian and Western Leagues for many years before later being adopted nationallly


London Harrier
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Mar 26, 2019, 9:21 AM

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In Reply To


Missed perhaps the most famouys and most successful one - 3 pts for a win. Trialled in Rothmans Northern, Isthmian and Western Leagues for many years before later being adopted nationallly


I genuinely didn’t know that.

Did the FA ask the respective leagues to trial three points for a win? Or what is it a unilateral initiative that was later adopted by the Football League?


London Harrier
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Mar 26, 2019, 9:23 AM

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Sin bins will be at Step 5 & 6 as well next season.

Another one currently operating at "recreational" level is repeated substituions.


Typo error on my part there! I meant to write:

2017/18 (?) - Rolling subs below Step 7.
2019/20 - Rolling subs to be introduced at Step 7 (Is this still the case?)

Not sure if the dates are correct.


leohoenig
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Mar 26, 2019, 10:50 AM

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In Reply To

In Reply To


Missed perhaps the most famouys and most successful one - 3 pts for a win. Trialled in Rothmans Northern, Isthmian and Western Leagues for many years before later being adopted nationallly


I genuinely didn’t know that.

Did the FA ask the respective leagues to trial three points for a win? Or what is it a unilateral initiative that was later adopted by the Football League?


I know Tony Williams claims the idea as his. He was working for Rothmans on their football sponsorships and it was from the Rothmans' leagues that the idea was generated. All three mentioned were under their sponsorship at the time, along with (I think), the top divisions in both Jersey and Guernsey.



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London Harrier
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Thanks, Leo.

This raises an interesting question. To what extent do leagues have the authority to implement their own (potentially radical) rule changes? For example, is there anything stopping the Isthmian trialing ten points for a win, the NPL deciding all drawn league games be decided by a penalty shoot-out, or the Southern League removing the offside law?


spen666
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Mar 26, 2019, 11:25 AM

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In Reply To
Thanks, Leo.

This raises an interesting question. To what extent do leagues have the authority to implement their own (potentially radical) rule changes? For example, is there anything stopping the Isthmian trialing ten points for a win, the NPL deciding all drawn league games be decided by a penalty shoot-out, or the Southern League removing the offside law?



My understanding is it was Tony williams idea, but the FA had to sanction it before they could try it and the same is I understand the case with any law changes


leohoenig
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The number of points per win is not in the laws, but is a competition rule.

The FA allow the Checkatrade trophy to give two points for a penalty shoot-out win (in group games).


However, at some point, FIFA did decry that it would be 3 points for a win in league games. This was not universally accepted as a good thing. I know there were objections in Germany, for example. By now, it appears to be globally accepted. Some French Amateur Leagues still give four points for a win, two for a draw and one for a defeat. This simplifies the forfeit (0 points), although I believe clubs that forfeit now suffer fines as well.


Changes to the laws of the games would need FA approval. Most of the changes we are seeing now, such as rolling subs and sin-bins are feeding down from IFAB meetings.



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London Harrier
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Mar 26, 2019, 12:37 PM

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I’ve found reference to a competition called the Premier Midweek League that operated two points for a home win/three points for an away win, from at least 1970.

Here is an extract from the Middlesex County Times - Friday 31 July 1970, covering Southall FC

“Some attractive teams will be visiting Western Road to do battle in the Premier Midweek League this season and among them will be Southern League club Barnet. Southall are in Section ‘A’ of the competition which besides Barnet, has a fair sprinkling of Isthmian and Athenian League sides. Barking. Hitchin and Leytonstone will be opponents from the Isthmian League with Cheshunt. Finchley and Wembley making up the numbers. This is the competition in which away wins are more important than home wins. An away win collects three points compared to the two points for a home victory while a draw, home or away, is worth one point.”



London Harrier
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I know Tony Williams claims the idea as his. He was working for Rothmans on their football sponsorships and it was from the Rothmans' leagues that the idea was generated. All three mentioned were under their sponsorship at the time, along with (I think), the top divisions in both Jersey and Guernsey.


Birmingham Daily Post (Friday 20 July 1973) suggests that the Isthmian League’s 3 points for a win idea came from Jimmy Hill

“The Isthmian League will be the platform for an experiment next season: a plan by former Coventry City manager Jimmy Hill to encourage attack and goals. The country’s top amateur league is being sponsored by Rothmans, and Hill’s ideas include increasing the reward for victory to three points while keeping the value of a draw at one point”

This is further substantiated in the Middlesex County Times - Friday 27 July 1973

“The coming football season sees a massive boost to Isthmian League clubs, of which Southall F.C. is one, with the announcement Rothmans are to sponsor the league. Clubs can make some substantial sums from the sponsorship through weekly awards for goals and a sportsmanship pool. There is also to be a new points system, three points for a win and only one for a draw. The Isthmian League has come to grips with the modem outlook on the game under the leadership of its chairman Barry East, and for some time they have made it known that they would welcome a sponsor. So when Jimmy Hill drew up new proposals for the league with emphasis placed heavily on sportsmanship, discipline, and attractive football, Rothmans felt that his ideals perfectly matched their own.”


leohoenig
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The other major point in the Rothmans sponsorship was that clubs' shares in the sponsorship pool were reduced according to the number of bookings
As a result, some clubs went through a whole season without a booking.

As someone who watched both Southern and Isthmian football at the time, I can assure you that this was not a result of fairer play - more a case that the referees were reluctant to sanction clubs when this meant a significant reduction in the cash they would earn



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Rootin' Tootin'
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Mar 26, 2019, 4:20 PM

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I also think I remember Rothmans awarding a £40 bonus if a team won by 3 clear goals. Have I remembered that correctly?


London Harrier
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I also think I remember Rothmans awarding a £40 bonus if a team won by 3 clear goals. Have I remembered that correctly?


That broadly tallies with the attached article from the Buckinghamshire Examiner (Friday 27 July 1973)
Attachments: Buckinghamshire Examiner - Friday 27 July 1973.PNG (198 KB)


MiddxSaint
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Rewards were lower in the lower divisions. Attached are details of the payments made in 1978/9 under the sponsorship of Berger.
Attachments: 005.jpg (288 KB)
  006.jpg (246 KB)


AndyE
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Eastern Counties League 1976-77 used an unusual points system of 5 for an away win, 4 for a home win, 2 for a draw whether home or away.

League of Ireland 1981-82 went with 4 for an away win, 3 for a home win, 2 for an away draw, 1 for a home draw.


Ropemaker
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There was the advance a free kick 10 yards thing in case of dissent.

Wasn't that used/trialed in various places before being adopted then scrapped?



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blackdouglas
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There was the advance a free kick 10 yards thing in case of dissent.

Wasn't that used/trialed in various places before being adopted then scrapped?


I really liked this one, but the problem was the referee had to book the dissenting player before the ball placement could be advanced. Clubs also complained that the 10 yards often made it harder for the takers to get the ball over the wall and back down again under the bar. A couple of tweaks I would have made;

  1. No need to book the offending player before advancing the ball,
  2. Let the offended side take the free kick from anywhere with a 10 yard radius.




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Rebel Yeller
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Re: [London Harrier] Non-League Rule Change Experiments Over The Years [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In respect of the kick-ins, all Isthmian games that season had just kick ins. We only saw a throw in in FA Cup, Trophy, etc.

It was a disaster and we couldn't wait for it to end. The idea was that players would take a kick in quicker than a throw in and the ball would travel further forward more quickly , thus encouraging attacking play. In practice, every kick in was treated like a free kick. So teams waited whilst their players went forward and got into position, thus slowing the thing right down. Plus the usual throw in quibbles of taking it from the right place still persisted. The whole thing had the complete opposite effect of that intended.

I remember Alan Turvey trumpeting that it was an honour for the Isthmian League to be chosen for this. No it wasn't.


blackdouglas
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In respect of the kick-ins, all Isthmian games that season had just kick ins. We only saw a throw in in FA Cup, Trophy, etc.

It was a disaster and we couldn't wait for it to end. The idea was that players would take a kick in quicker than a throw in and the ball would travel further forward more quickly , thus encouraging attacking play. In practice, every kick in was treated like a free kick. So teams waited whilst their players went forward and got into position, thus slowing the thing right down. Plus the usual throw in quibbles of taking it from the right place still persisted. The whole thing had the complete opposite effect of that intended.

I remember Alan Turvey trumpeting that it was an honour for the Isthmian League to be chosen for this. No it wasn't.


Kick-ins weren't compulsory, there was still the choice but you couldn't just fetch the ball, put it down, and knock it to a team-mate as was the hope. A player wanting to take a kick-in had to raise his arm out at shoulder level to indicate a kick-in rather than a throw-in was being taken, and wait for the referee to acknowledge. Hence lofting the ball forward to big guys up front was more than popular. I was still living in Bromley & supporting them that season. We had Trevor Aylott and Carl Richards up front and anything from the halfway line was just pumped up to one of them in the box. Though I believe there was one cub, I think it was St Albans City, where the manager banned kick-ins and substituted players who defied him?



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ladderman
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Yes, it was St Albans. Grey's, in particular, loved it.


MiddxSaint
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It was St Albans City who refused to take kick-ins. A few clubs playing against us also did not take them, preferring to play a proper game for a change.


noprogs
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I only saw one game under the kick in experiment, Dulwich Hamlet beating Walton & Hersham 4-3.
One game a season was about my Isthmian ration at the time, but I remember the match as the best I'd seen in that league for a long while.
Or maybe I was influenced by the goal whore in me....

 
 


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