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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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PaulC
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Mar 14, 2019, 10:47 PM

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Post #3126 of 3668 (1709 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
So of all the things our MP’s don’t want, a second referendum is the most definate thing they don’t want. A massive majority of 249 reject a second referendum.


Yes, that was probably the most enlightening of the votes. Especially as the number voting against was more than half of the MPs eligible to vote. On that basis a "Peoples Vote" seems very unlikely. There appear to be too many Labour MPs scared of upsetting their Leave voting constituencies.

It was a strange sight to see the massed ranks of the Labour Party sat on their hands and their principles, and staying in the HofC chamber whilst the rest of the House voted.

.


I agree.

Should keep Paul C quiet on the matter now, That's a blessing!


As I have already said, it’s not quite as simple as that.

Labour abstained because they were supporting Benn’s amendment.

Voting for a second referendum is “premature” according to Labour.


leohoenig
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Mar 14, 2019, 11:31 PM

Posts: 13096
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Post #3127 of 3668 (1668 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just as the use of the asterix to disguise expletives, the use of made-up homophones is also not a way around this.
I have deleted a case of this - the whole post as I could not be bothered to edit it.

I am assuming the poster will know who it was and will take this as a warning



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



PaulC
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Mar 14, 2019, 11:58 PM

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Post #3128 of 3668 (1651 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As I have already said, it’s not quite as simple as that.

Labour abstained because they were supporting Benn’s amendment.

Voting for a second referendum is “premature” according to Labour.

“a shiver ran along the labour front bench and couldn’t find a spine to climb up”
Ian Blackford


leohoenig
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Mar 15, 2019, 12:20 AM

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Post #3129 of 3668 (1642 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The whole matter is getting difficult to understand. So let me try to clarify and then wait to see who corrects me first
  1. Parliament has rejected the deal again, by a massive margin - albeit not quite as massive as last time.
  2. Parliament also rejected the idea of no deal
  3. Also rejected were moves to delay Brexit until the end of 2021, or to the end of May (2019)
  4. They then voted in favour of a motion that rules out "no deal"
  5. A vote for a second referendum was heavily defeated, as Labour which have come to say the support the idea would not vote for it. While most Labour MPs abstained, enough Labour MPs voted against this to show it is unlikely.
    1. In simple terms, that was an attempt by Labour to avoid a Conservative style implosion. Do not have a whip on supporters so as no one can rebel against it.
    2. In other words, Labour is doing the same as the Tories, putting the party ahead of the country
  6. A vote to allow more votes, where parliament would say what it wants, (rather than voting against what it does not want) was defeated
    1. Of course, that one was about two years too late anyway. The decisions on what the UK was trying to achieve should have been made before the process started
    2. I am, by trade, an engineer. When working on projects, we always start with a clear intention of what we want. Compromise comes in later as certain things cannot be achieved due to cost, budget or other factors
  7. A Labour amendment to delay Brexit was defeated
  8. A government move to delay Brexit was voted through - so much better than the others that were rejected.
  9. The government will now try again with meaningful vote three. I am not certain when.
    1. The plan to date has been that opponents of Brexit would vote for the deal, as it was better than no deal
    2. The plan to date has been that those wanting Brexit, but not on these terms would vote for it, as it was better than no Brexit
    3. This is still the plan. It has failed twice, so it must be worth trying again.
  10. The main problems to the economy has not been Brexit itself, but the uncertainty concerning Brexit
    1. Parliament has voted to extend this uncertainty, and against saying what it wants instead
    2. The deal is not a solution, but a holding pattern to give two more years of uncertainty anyway
    3. Although there is the ERG suggestion. Every route involves diving into a sea of (expletive deleted), so lets dive straight in

Conclusion: all 650 MPs are in contempt of the population of the country. We should have a new election tomorrow and no current MPs should be allowed to stand for election.
Lets also disallow any current MEP as well, as we don't want Farage in parliament.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



(This post was edited by leohoenig on Mar 15, 2019, 12:21 AM)


coops
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Mar 15, 2019, 5:07 AM

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Post #3130 of 3668 (1589 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Labour abstained because they were supporting Benn’s amendment.

Voting for a second referendum is “premature” according to Labour.


It was also premature according to the People's Vote group themselves, they asked Corbyn to tell his MPs to abstain, they need all possible alternatives exhausted before wanting MPs to vote for it because they know that until then it will be defeated.


Yatesman
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Mar 15, 2019, 7:11 AM

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Post #3131 of 3668 (1546 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The whole matter is getting difficult to understand. So let me try to clarify and then wait to see who corrects me first
  1. Parliament has rejected the deal again, by a massive margin - albeit not quite as massive as last time.
  2. Parliament also rejected the idea of no deal
  3. Also rejected were moves to delay Brexit until the end of 2021, or to the end of May (2019)
  4. They then voted in favour of a motion that rules out "no deal"
  5. A vote for a second referendum was heavily defeated, as Labour which have come to say the support the idea would not vote for it. While most Labour MPs abstained, enough Labour MPs voted against this to show it is unlikely.
    1. In simple terms, that was an attempt by Labour to avoid a Conservative style implosion. Do not have a whip on supporters so as no one can rebel against it.
    2. In other words, Labour is doing the same as the Tories, putting the party ahead of the country
  6. A vote to allow more votes, where parliament would say what it wants, (rather than voting against what it does not want) was defeated
    1. Of course, that one was about two years too late anyway. The decisions on what the UK was trying to achieve should have been made before the process started
    2. I am, by trade, an engineer. When working on projects, we always start with a clear intention of what we want. Compromise comes in later as certain things cannot be achieved due to cost, budget or other factors
  7. A Labour amendment to delay Brexit was defeated
  8. A government move to delay Brexit was voted through - so much better than the others that were rejected.
  9. The government will now try again with meaningful vote three. I am not certain when.
    1. The plan to date has been that opponents of Brexit would vote for the deal, as it was better than no deal
    2. The plan to date has been that those wanting Brexit, but not on these terms would vote for it, as it was better than no Brexit
    3. This is still the plan. It has failed twice, so it must be worth trying again.
  10. The main problems to the economy has not been Brexit itself, but the uncertainty concerning Brexit
    1. Parliament has voted to extend this uncertainty, and against saying what it wants instead
    2. The deal is not a solution, but a holding pattern to give two more years of uncertainty anyway
    3. Although there is the ERG suggestion. Every route involves diving into a sea of (expletive deleted), so lets dive straight in

Conclusion: all 650 MPs are in contempt of the population of the country. We should have a new election tomorrow and no current MPs should be allowed to stand for election.
Lets also disallow any current MEP as well, as we don't want Farage in parliament.


I agree and not only agree but I actually made the suggestion of a new election where current MP's are diallowed from standing previously.
I also agree re: MSP 's.

The current crop of MP's are, as you suggest, incapable of solving this issue as it stands so a change is needed

I would like to see MP's stand as independents with no pary affiliation, but I concede tht's probably not feasible.

It would be good if all MP's had a minimum term of residence in their constituencis of at least 3 years.

There is so much wrong with our Parliamentary system of Gov't as it stands that EU membership has masked for 40 years and as I have also previously said, our role as citizens Post-Brexit should be the root and branch reform of our system of Gov't and democratic representation........... It's a cause that could re-unite the nation!


jon b
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Mar 15, 2019, 7:45 AM

Posts: 2838
Location: Dronfield
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Post #3132 of 3668 (1520 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We're entering Alice in Wonderland territory.

Last night Stephen Barclay, the Brexit Minister, rounded up the debate by calling on the House to vote for the Government motion.

He then voted against it.

.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Mar 15, 2019, 10:29 AM

Posts: 11139
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #3133 of 3668 (1441 views)
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Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We're entering Alice in Wonderland territory.

Last night Stephen Barclay, the Brexit Minister, rounded up the debate by calling on the House to vote for the Government motion.

He then voted against it.

.


Tory Brexiteers have broken the bounds of satire.

Had it been a Thick of It plot it would have been rejected as being too far-fetched.


Ropemaker
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Mar 15, 2019, 3:07 PM

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Post #3134 of 3668 (1317 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
There is so much wrong with our Parliamentary system of Gov't as it stands that EU membership has masked for 40 years and as I have also previously said, our role as citizens Post-Brexit should be the root and branch reform of our system of Gov't and democratic representation........... It's a cause that could re-unite the nation!

PR might be a start instead of first past the post but I guess that is something for another day.

PR has been used in the Euro elections for a while. Wasn't that something that came from Brussels?



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


PaulC
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Mar 15, 2019, 3:40 PM

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Post #3135 of 3668 (1295 views)
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Re: [Ropemaker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
There is so much wrong with our Parliamentary system of Gov't as it stands that EU membership has masked for 40 years and as I have also previously said, our role as citizens Post-Brexit should be the root and branch reform of our system of Gov't and democratic representation........... It's a cause that could re-unite the nation!

PR might be a start instead of first past the post but I guess that is something for another day.

PR has been used in the Euro elections for a while. Wasn't that something that came from Brussels?


Not to mention in Scotland, where it works very well.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Mar 15, 2019, 4:06 PM)


Climate Change
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Mar 15, 2019, 5:47 PM

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Post #3136 of 3668 (1232 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
.

“a shiver ran along the labour front bench and couldn’t find a spine to climb up” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sums up all MP's, not just Labour.There has been some low points in British politics over theyears but this current shambles is up there with any previous fiascos.




I don't need Google. I have a Hoddy.


paulh66
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Mar 15, 2019, 7:05 PM

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Post #3137 of 3668 (1179 views)
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Re: [Climate Change] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
.

“a shiver ran along the labour front bench and couldn’t find a spine to climb up” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sums up all MP's, not just Labour.There has been some low points in British politics over theyears but this current shambles is up there with any previous fiascos.


In (part) mitigation, the referendum produced an outcome that, in hindsight, parliament was always going to struggle to execute. On the other hand, politicians would do well to remember that serving the people sometimes demands putting pride and ego to one side. Though I suppose that's a trait by no means unique to politicians.


PaulC
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Mar 16, 2019, 6:25 PM

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Post #3138 of 3668 (998 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Brexit March begins (where’s Yatesman).

Could any photo be a more fitting allegory?




Yatesman
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Mar 16, 2019, 8:08 PM

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Post #3139 of 3668 (967 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Brexit March begins (where’s Yatesman).

Could any photo be a more fitting allegory?



Ha ha, fair play to them....Looks bloody grim!!

We had an inch ( 25mm to you Europhiles) of slushy snow so happy to stay home grouting the tiles to the kitchen I just fitted.

Wishing I was at Cirencester to see Yate beat the Centurions 2-1 away from home to keep their promotion hopes alive!
COYB!


jon b
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Mar 16, 2019, 10:21 PM

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Post #3140 of 3668 (933 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That looks like many of the pitches I used to play on.


PaulC
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Mar 17, 2019, 1:58 PM

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Post #3141 of 3668 (833 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Brexit March begins (where’s Yatesman).

Could any photo be a more fitting allegory?


Today the remaining Brexit Marchers have been forced into making a 5 mile detour because they had failed to factor in the Tees Transporter Bridge being closed on Sundays.

The allegory just got better.


Towlawtom
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Mar 17, 2019, 3:13 PM

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Post #3142 of 3668 (815 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They are heading for those Sunlit Uplands.




I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Rebel Yeller
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Mar 17, 2019, 3:14 PM

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Post #3143 of 3668 (814 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Why did they choose to start in such a bleak looking place?

Even if 1000's had turned up, the location would have made them look less than majestic.

I suspect that wherever it is doesn't look great even in good weather.


PaulC
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Mar 17, 2019, 4:22 PM

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Post #3144 of 3668 (789 views)
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Re: [Rebel Yeller] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Latest photo just in.




PaulC
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Mar 18, 2019, 5:18 PM

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Post #3145 of 3668 (632 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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John Bercow seized upon with relish Angela Eagle's reminder that deep down in Erskine May is the convention that a defeated motion cannot be sent back to the Commons for a third time in a parliamentary session.

Bercow could still be our saviour. What a guy!


And so it came to pass.


Yatesman
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Mar 18, 2019, 5:57 PM

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Post #3146 of 3668 (598 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
John Bercow seized upon with relish Angela Eagle's reminder that deep down in Erskine May is the convention that a defeated motion cannot be sent back to the Commons for a third time in a parliamentary session.

Bercow could still be our saviour. What a guy!


And so it came to pass.


Looks like a political decision by the Speaker


He's dragged up some ancient protocol that isn't at all relevant for the situation to hand.

Puts pressure on May to significanly change her agreement or we leave with No Deal.............No Deal being the more likely outcome!

Of course, The Queen can always prorogue Parliament!


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Mar 18, 2019, 6:36 PM)


Towlawtom
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Mar 18, 2019, 7:46 PM

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Post #3147 of 3668 (544 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Its a good job we are holding all the cards !




I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


windydcfc
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Mar 18, 2019, 8:42 PM

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Post #3148 of 3668 (523 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There’s about 50 people left. Farage can still garner this type of support. What a man.....


jon b
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Mar 18, 2019, 8:50 PM

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Post #3149 of 3668 (514 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Looks like a political decision by the Speaker


He's dragged up some ancient protocol that isn't at all relevant for the situation to hand.

Puts pressure on May to significanly change her agreement or we leave with No Deal.............No Deal being the more likely outcome!

Of course, The Queen can always prorogue Parliament!


We're in uncharted territory. The only certainty is that legislation is in place that takes us out of the EU on 29 March 2019 unless Parliament enacts otherwise.

If the Brexiters decide that the HofC referee is wholly biased against them then heaven knows what filibustering and procedural games they'll come up with in response.

However, I can"t imagine any circumstance in which the monarchy will allow itself to be dragged into this mess. The dangers to it if it did are obvious.

With the clock fast running down this could turn even more spectacularly vicious and ugly in the Commons.

.


steve walker
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Mar 18, 2019, 9:24 PM

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Post #3150 of 3668 (483 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well there is certainly no love lost between the Tory front bench and the Speaker. You have to remind yourself that that John Bercow was a Tory MP before being elected Speaker. Since taking on that role with which comes impartiality he is a fanatic about promoting back bench opinions from all parties and ensuring that the correct protocols within the Chamber are adhered to. Fair play to that despite some Tory outlets trying to whip up scandals against him. No idea if that's justified does it really matter if he does his job.


His tenure has recently seen the Government found in contempt of Parliament, delay votes when 164 MPs have made speeches because having a vote wouldn't be convenient to them, Then the Govt suffer huge defeats on core policies where even a defeat by a single vote would have resulted in a resignation from the Prime Minister. Thatcher resigned even though she had the support of just over half of her party. That wasn't enough for her and for that one and only reason you have to respect her integrity. I have no candle to hold for the late Mrs Thatcher but it's a shame the PM doesn't have even a fraction of her integrity.


It's not an 'ancient protocol' unless you count all protocols in that category. We don't have a written Constitution so it's down to the Speaker and most people will agree I think, you can't keep moving the same motion over and over and hope for a different result. It's precisely the reason why people say we shouldn't have another peoples vote. You can't have it both ways. Why is it okay that MPs will have changed their minds so Mrs May wants another vote but won't accept that the country may also be capable of changing their minds?

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