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Home: Non Football Related: General Chat:
Would we do that now and why did we do that then?

 



broodleyhoo
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Oct 17, 2018, 9:45 AM

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Post #1 of 18 (8294 views)
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Would we do that now and why did we do that then? Can't Post or Reply Privately

Around 45-50 years ago, huge changes were made to England/UK's way of life.

In 1971 decimal coinage was adopted
In 1973 we joined the (then) EEC
In 1974 ancient County Council boundaries and powers were hugely altered or abolished
In 1975/6 it was agreed that metric measurements were to be adopted.

Now I'm not posting this to argue that any or all of the above 4 were good/bad things - but just to wonder at the political mindset that brought such changes about.

My argument is that those in their 50s at the height of their power at that time would have grown up serving in and/or suffering from WW2 and the true austerity of the late 40s/early 50s.

They had also matured through the cultural revolution of the 60s where all kinds of traditional attitudes were discarded.

Thus I would argue that the 4 actions were those of politicians (from both parties : a Tory Govt was in power 70-74) who saw such change as building on our progress during the 60s and joining in with the way that most other nations run their affairs rather than thinking of ourselves as separate and special.

To look forward to a newer and hopeful world and be determined never to repeat the mistakes that had brought 2 world wars in 40 years.

The first three actions of course happened - but metrication, although legislated for, was never fully implemented.

So I'm pondering firstly, what happened to make us lose our 'modernization' nerve between 74 and 76.

And secondly to posit that in our current mindset, we'd never either decimalize currency nor rationalize counties.

So what has happened to our national mindset to embrace 'tradition' so strongly that any move forward is vehemently resisted and - in the case of the EU/EEC - attempting to be reversed?


Tykeoldboy
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Oct 17, 2018, 2:16 PM

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Post #2 of 18 (8242 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The 1960's were a bit of a boom time in the Uk, at least until the Labour government devalued the pound, and anything was possible. metrication was started around 1965, but cost would have been a factor in later years prohibiting a full switch from imperial to metric. Decimalization was started around 1967 and was always going to happen. A simpler monetary system helps with trade and tourism

I think it was Harold Wilson and his Labour government in the 1960's that wanted to drag the UK out of the 19th century and be a world leader in technology and trade which prompted the change in UK society on the back of the feel good factor that was the 1960's.

Unfortunately the 1970's came along and with it high oil prices, a large increase in living costs, a housing boom, while most people still rented and successive governments inability to face up to the unions.

This was followed by the recession at the beginning of the 1980's , which had an impact on the UK which the country never seem to recover from. Thatcher selling council houses and not replacing them pushed up property prices which saw short term gains but in the long term a sever housing crisis.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


broodleyhoo
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Oct 17, 2018, 3:03 PM

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Post #3 of 18 (8222 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well perhaps...

Decimalization was certainly considered in the 1960s : I've a copy of the book where the pros and cons of a 10/- or 20/- pound were discussed. But D day itself was 15 Feb 1971. Although 18 months were allowed for full change over, it was mostly all done and dusted in half that time.

Metrication? Well I left secondary school in 1973, and I'd been taught in metric units. We've had 45 years of kids being taught in kg, L degrees C and all the rest..and then being confronted by a horrible mish mash of imperial and metric units day to day in the UK.

Rather like using C not F for temps someone needs to grasp the nettle and tell people to stop whinging (mixed metaphor alert!).

Increased cost...balanced by having to do things in imperial for one market and metric for the rest.

Not facing up to the unions..again, sure, but equally not facing up to the bosses who refused to invest in new modern machinery.

Devaluation? We couldn't keep thinking it was 1945 and that we were a major player on the world stage. Economic realignment was always going to be necessary : had it have been done earlier, the pain would have been less.

But ultimately we seem to have gone from a nation that was looking forward to modernize to one that is scared to do anything to break with tradition and heritage. An equal balance of both is needed.

Perhaps the 60s went too far in one direction - but we're certainly going too far in the other just now.


Bradshaw
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Oct 17, 2018, 8:31 PM

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Post #4 of 18 (8153 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think decimalisation was first mooted in the eighteenth century when Sir Robert Walpole was top man in the treasury and the florin, the forerunner of the two bob/10p piece was introduced, purportedly to help with foreign trade. It came to nothing and we continued with our quirky currency for another two centuries.


Tykeoldboy
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Oct 17, 2018, 9:56 PM

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Post #5 of 18 (8132 views)
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Re: [Bradshaw] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

From memory, which is sketchy with a few cobwebs, the Farthing, Tha'penny bit, Half Crown, Crown were withdrawn around 1968. The 10 Shilling note was replaced by the 50p piece in 1969 quickly followed by the 5p and 10p coins, the shilling and 2 shilling coins stayed in circulation well into the 1980's. Only the sixpence survived after Feb 1971



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Mr. T
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Oct 17, 2018, 10:47 PM

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Post #6 of 18 (8115 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

5p and 10p April 1968
d withdrawn July 1969
Half-crown withdrawn Dec 1969
50p Oct 1969
10/- note withdrawn Nov 1970
Remaining coins introduced on D-day
1d and 3d withdrawn August 1971
6d withdrawn June 1980
Shilling withdrawn Dec 1990
Florin withdrawn June 1993

The farthing went in 1960.


Tykeoldboy
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Oct 17, 2018, 11:21 PM

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Post #7 of 18 (8102 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
5p and 10p April 1968
d withdrawn July 1969
Half-crown withdrawn Dec 1969
50p Oct 1969
10/- note withdrawn Nov 1970
Remaining coins introduced on D-day
1d and 3d withdrawn August 1971
6d withdrawn June 1980
Shilling withdrawn Dec 1990
Florin withdrawn June 1993

The farthing went in 1960.


I remember having farthings, a weeks wages where i come from, so I'm surprised they ceased to be legal tender in 1960



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


broodleyhoo
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Oct 18, 2018, 8:33 AM

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Post #8 of 18 (8050 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes.

You're right about the gradual introduction and removal of coinage. I'd forgotten

But the bigger picture is that here was a huge change to our way of life in the name of modernity. Back then we had the confidence to do that.

Now I don't think we would.

What changed?


stingray
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Oct 18, 2018, 10:14 AM

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Post #9 of 18 (8024 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Apropos the use of the metric system, I have an Arithmetic textbook which states the following (my bold):

"The metric system is the system of measurement used in all the European countries apart from ourselves and Russia as well as nearly all the countries of the civilised world. In England it is very largely used in Science and we trust that before long it will quite supersede the cumbersome system now in use."

Further on, it said that: "The want of a decimal system of money is very keenly felt in the calculation of compound Interest."

This was in the 1890s. Make of that what you will.



2019/20 stats

14 goals in 4 games
41.20 spent


mick
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Oct 18, 2018, 3:46 PM

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Post #10 of 18 (7969 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
But the bigger picture is that here was a huge change to our way of life in the name of modernity. Back then we had the confidence to do that.

Now I don't think we would.

What changed?


Back then Bert & Ada would have complained about the changes to their friends and acquaintances down the pub or in in the church hall etc. Then they would have gone home and got on with life.

Now, Bert & Ada's grandchildren / great-grandchildren would be "outraged" on Twitter etc for the whole world to see. Their 'outrage' would be picked up by newspapers and TV/radio stations who, in turn, would buttonhole politicians and other champions of change demanding a response. Politicians, and others, with no real convictions and wanting a quiet life are therefore reluctant to pursue things which might cause 'outrage'.

Some argue this gives "power to the people". To others the phrase "empty vessels make the most noise" comes to mind.


jrev61
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Oct 18, 2018, 5:27 PM

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Post #11 of 18 (7921 views)
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Re: [stingray] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Apropos the use of the metric system, I have an Arithmetic textbook which states the following (my bold):

"The metric system is the system of measurement used in all the European countries apart from ourselves and Russia as well as nearly all the countries of the civilised world. In England it is very largely used in Science and we trust that before long it will quite supersede the cumbersome system now in use."

Further on, it said that: "The want of a decimal system of money is very keenly felt in the calculation of compound Interest."

This was in the 1890s. Make of that what you will.


A relic from your schooldays?Smile



jrev61


Tykeoldboy
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Oct 18, 2018, 9:31 PM

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Post #12 of 18 (7853 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes.

You're right about the gradual introduction and removal of coinage. I'd forgotten

But the bigger picture is that here was a huge change to our way of life in the name of modernity. Back then we had the confidence to do that.

Now I don't think we would.

What changed?


Since the UK joined the EEC priorities have been aimed at business users, more so after Thatcher came to power. Before then government drove change, I doubt Concord would have even made the drawing board if left to business.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


paulh66
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Oct 18, 2018, 9:48 PM

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Post #13 of 18 (7840 views)
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Re: [mick] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
But the bigger picture is that here was a huge change to our way of life in the name of modernity. Back then we had the confidence to do that.

Now I don't think we would.

What changed?


Back then Bert & Ada would have complained about the changes to their friends and acquaintances down the pub or in in the church hall etc. Then they would have gone home and got on with life.

Now, Bert & Ada's grandchildren / great-grandchildren would be "outraged" on Twitter etc for the whole world to see.


...which is just one example of a huge change to our way of life in the name of modernity? Like the internet, mobile technology and many other life-changing things which society has had the confidence to embrace.

If, on the other hand, you're wondering why there hasn't been government-led sea change that impacted everybody on a scale seen since decimalisation or metrication, that's surely because (1) the impact of such change is that much bigger because, by its nature, it doesn't just touch everyone's lives but also has to be done in one fell swoop and (2) can you think of anything that actually needs doing on such a scale today? Apart from occasional talk of whether we should switch to driving in the right hand side of the road, or possibly scrapping the twice-yearly changing of the clocks, I can't think of anything that remotely comes into the equation.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Oct 18, 2018, 10:02 PM)


broodleyhoo
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Oct 19, 2018, 7:17 AM

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Post #14 of 18 (7741 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks for the ideas in the last three posts. They do bring home how much more life has become individualized these last 40 years or so. That's certainly good food for thought.

Whilst this has no doubt had some good effects, the loss of things like social clubs and the concept of working together for the common good through groups like unions is a bit of a price to pay.

And the big changes of the noughties were indeed individual-based (e.g. equal rights marriage) rather than society-wide.

Things that need to be done on such a scale today?

1. Fairer votes
2. More meaningful and powerful local government


Fanatic
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Oct 19, 2018, 10:13 PM

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Post #15 of 18 (7649 views)
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Re: [broodleyhoo] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
In 1974 ancient County Council boundaries and powers were hugely altered or abolished


Things could have been even more radical had the Redcliffe-Maud proposal been put into practice.

Having worked in local government for over a decade and been involved in preparing proposals for merging several rural authorities into a unitary council, I think this would have worked very well.


Tykeoldboy
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Oct 20, 2018, 7:57 PM

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Post #16 of 18 (7593 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
In 1974 ancient County Council boundaries and powers were hugely altered or abolished


Things could have been even more radical had the Redcliffe-Maud proposal been put into practice.

Having worked in local government for over a decade and been involved in preparing proposals for merging several rural authorities into a unitary council, I think this would have worked very well.


An interesting report. From what I remember, Cumbria was created out of Cumberland and parts of Lancashire so all of the lake district would come under the administration of one county.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Mr. T
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Oct 20, 2018, 8:38 PM

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Post #17 of 18 (7585 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You've forgotten Westmorland.


pitch 63
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Oct 30, 2018, 11:51 AM

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Post #18 of 18 (7257 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Would we do that now and why did we do that then? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Unfortunately, many years after it was done away with, as I type my address in on line for purchases the various web sites still automatically add "County of Avon". This county was a complete waste of money, time and effort. Three cheers to the boy or person that decided it had to be disbanded and pushed it through parliament.

 
 


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