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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA statement on future pyramid

 

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AndyE
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May 12, 2019, 5:07 PM

Posts: 2341
Location: Rochester
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Post #476 of 487 (4122 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A couple of points which don't seem to have been made.

We are told that there are more clubs who more-or-less have the facilities to move up to Step 6 in the Midlands than there are elsewhere. I'm sure that is partly to do with the existing league structures, but is it also to do with the near-impossibility of getting permission for floodlights in much of the south? If the football team from somewhere in the Home Counties that thinks it's posh wanted to put up floodlights, the local reaction would be "Euurghh, football, there'd be ten thousand common people coming into our nice village every week", and the planning application would be refused. A rather less Farage-esque attitude prevails in some other parts of the country.


More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


Cris
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May 12, 2019, 5:32 PM

Posts: 295
Location: Birmingham
Team(s): Bromsgrove Sporting

Post #477 of 487 (4040 views)
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Re: [AndyE] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A couple of points which don't seem to have been made.

We are told that there are more clubs who more-or-less have the facilities to move up to Step 6 in the Midlands than there are elsewhere. I'm sure that is partly to do with the existing league structures, but is it also to do with the near-impossibility of getting permission for floodlights in much of the south? If the football team from somewhere in the Home Counties that thinks it's posh wanted to put up floodlights, the local reaction would be "Euurghh, football, there'd be ten thousand common people coming into our nice village every week", and the planning application would be refused. A rather less Farage-esque attitude prevails in some other parts of the country.


More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


This is a wonderful example of the kind of self entitlement that leads to so much bias in favour of the South East.

The idea that a team in Orpington are ever going to have regular trips of 3 hours at Step 6 is laughable as is the implication that the rest of country don’t have to contend with bad traffic.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

May 12, 2019, 7:36 PM

Posts: 6217
Location: Ilminster
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Post #478 of 487 (3690 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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That was just a list of Midlands clubs with floodlights. I'd suggest very few of those clubs could be considered "step 6 ready" and most of them have shown no interest in moving up - indeed some even voluntarily dropped to step 7.


Sorry I have to pick up on this, as I believe it to be quite untrue.

Of the teams I mentioned

Been at Step 6 recently - only at Step 7 due to being relegated:
Coventry Alvis, Bolehall, Wellington Amateurs, Tipton Town, Bustleholme, Willenhall, Bromyard, Gornal Athletic, Retford United, Radcliffe Olympic, Ellistown, Askern, Appleby Frod, Woodford United, Oakham, S&L Corby.

Have applied for Step 6 recently:
Sikh Hunters, Team Dudley, Collingham, Pinxton, Clay Cross, Droitwich Spa, Darlaston Town, Eastwood Hanley, Foley Meir, FC GNG

Which leaves two categories:
Clubs that have voluntarily dropped to Step 7 to regroup
Lincoln MR, Holbrook Sports, Friar Lane & Epworth, Blaby & Whetstone, Dinnington, Kington, Ledbury, Ludlow, Southam

Clubs that have floodlights, most of whom have expressed a plan or intent to go up to Step 6.

Southwell, Bilborough, Blidworth, Cottesmore, Newark Town, Calverton, Sandiacre.

Given the chance - I'd say they'd all take promotion!


paulh66
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May 12, 2019, 7:59 PM

Posts: 18583
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Post #479 of 487 (3612 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

May 12, 2019, 8:14 PM

Posts: 6217
Location: Ilminster
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Post #480 of 487 (3562 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


May 12, 2019, 8:17 PM

Posts: 10211
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #481 of 487 (3538 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!



What about Swanage & Herston?


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

May 12, 2019, 9:38 PM

Posts: 6217
Location: Ilminster
Team(s): Salisbury

Post #482 of 487 (3231 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I'd suggest far better evidence from which to draw conclusions about which clubs are "step 6 ready" is the list of applicants for step 6 from step 7, filtering into which would be factors such as the rest of their facilities, the quality of the team, finances, manpower etc.

Those you've listed may have been at step 6 in the past (and, like Alvis for example, struggled badly on and off the pitch) and I agree others may intend/hope/dream to do so in the future. There might even be a decent uptake if the FA relaxed the entry criteria while dangling grant incentives, as they've done when getting the new leagues in Anglia and the SW off the ground.

But, although it certainly looks like there's a reasonable supply of clubs in the pipeline, I doubt there's a ready-made, step 6 standard league-in-waiting to be drawn from that group. Which presumably is part of the reason why it isn't happening.


And yet there is in an area to the South West of London...or was it the Thames Valley area....regardless of which it was, there are NO clubs with any Step 6 facilities whatsoever in any of the counties between West London and Devon!



What about Swanage & Herston?


OK Lets fill a division with Swanage Town & Herston, Shrewton, Gillingham Town and Stockbridge. Job done! All of whom have voluntarily dropped to Step 7 and three of whom, despite 2 of which were in a position to, have not applied for promotion back to Step 6 this season.

Hardly parallel to the list of clubs in the Midlands I listed is it!


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


May 12, 2019, 9:47 PM

Posts: 10211
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #483 of 487 (3183 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

After the constitutions have been set for next season. Add the total number clubs from steps 1-6. Then take that total off 980 & we’ll see how many clubs the FA needs to fill the gaps. Reading the article, it sounded like the FA were just shuffling the pack, instead of adding to it. So I don’t know if they’ll have to find any extra clubs in the Midlands or West London areas.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


May 12, 2019, 9:50 PM

Posts: 11253
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #484 of 487 (3163 views)
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Re: [AndyE] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
More seriously, travel time. If you are a football team in (say) Haltwhistle that aspires to Step 6, you know that most of your away games are going to be quite a distance away - but you're OK with that, because you know that's how things are in the remoter parts of the country, and a 50 mile journey is only an hour anyway.

But if you're a football club in (say) Orpington that aspires to Step 6, you need to assume that a 50 mile journey might take three hours, and you don't want to do it every other week. Certainly at a level where the players aren't being paid, the leagues in the south east need to have smaller footprints than elsewhere.


The footprint of leagues in the SE would continue to be much smaller than elsewhere even if both additional Step 5 leagues were in the nothern half of England.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 13, 2019, 7:41 AM

Posts: 3800
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #485 of 487 (2663 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
After the constitutions have been set for next season. Add the total number clubs from steps 1-6. Then take that total off 980 & we’ll see how many clubs the FA needs to fill the gaps. Reading the article, it sounded like the FA were just shuffling the pack, instead of adding to it. So I don’t know if they’ll have to find any extra clubs in the Midlands or West London areas.


Yes hardly any difference. Your right.


leohoenig
Administrator

May 13, 2019, 12:38 PM

Posts: 13202
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
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Post #486 of 487 (2076 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If I have it correct, the maximum number of teams, Steps 1-6 for 2019-20 is 976.

For 2020-21, this becomes 980.There will be 24 more teams entering Step 4 from Step 5 than moving the other way, and by addition and knock on, 64 more clubs promoted to Step 5 than moving down.

This is then put against a reduction in the number of teams at Step 6, which for 2019-20 is a maximum of 400 and will decrease to a maximum of 340
So the basis will be a normal promotion and relegation between Step 6 and what lies beneath, with slightly more clubs rising than dropping to make up for the extra four teams and vacancies at steps 1-6, (either because the leagues are undersunscribed or because teams fail to finish the season).

From what I have read, the FA are generally committed to one team promoted per Step 7, subject to a team reaching all qualification requirements. It is unlikely that enough clubs can be found to fill all vacancies, allowing for 40 teams relegated from Step 6, (which should be the rule). One of the few places where the FA has allowed itself geographical discretion is in selecting extra clubs to go up to Step 7



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



ARNOLD241
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May 13, 2019, 12:56 PM

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Post #487 of 487 (2030 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just looking at the numbers myself Leo.
Wazza has it as 396 at Step 6 next season. Two divisions being only 18 teams.

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