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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA statement on future pyramid

 

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paulh66
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Oct 4, 2018, 11:20 AM

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Re: [drblues] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
Local authorities have a lot of boxes ticked for them by their local football club but few support them in any meaningful way whatsoever. There are exceptions of course. More and more grounds though are moving out of town - if space is available that is. Others have no option but to ground share or fold. Even the community running track grounds being used are grinding out of time as that call for housing and cash to top up Council coffers overrides everything. It's a sorry situation and going forward will only get worse. There are areas of the country that have seen the loss of multiple grounds within a short radius and a short space of time.

Personally speaking and it's just my own opinion, I think Step 7 should be outside of the NLS and Step 6 should represent a half way house for facility requirements (including no overriding need for floodlights) on the way to full NLS membership at Step 5. Others may have their own opinion of course.


Subject to understanding in full the implications of what being outside the NLS would mean, then I agree that would help the situation. But it seems unlikely to happen and I don't see any other solution waiting to emerge over the horizon either. Mind you, the clubs who were compelled to meet these obligations have now either raised the money and done the work already or been booted out of the system because red tape prevented them from doing so, so it seems largely academic now.

Either way, external factors such as pressures on, and from, local authorities will always be present but that doesn't absolve the FA from its own responsibilities for shaping an environment in which clubs have been left with no option but to groundshare or fold.


drblues
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Oct 4, 2018, 12:05 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Subject to understanding in full the implications of what being outside the NLS would mean, then I agree that would help the situation. But it seems unlikely to happen and I don't see any other solution waiting to emerge over the horizon either. Mind you, the clubs who were compelled to meet these obligations have now either raised the money and done the work already or been booted out of the system because red tape prevented them from doing so, so it seems largely academic now.


So what you are saying is give up. I would say that if promotion to Step 5 also entailed compliance to facility requirements then those who have already invested are not overtly penalised. If there are regional shortfalls of clubs then 'parachuting' those with facilities over those that cannot or refuse to get them should be on the table. The free flow of clubs that want to progress should be allowed. Clubs who want to participate in the NLS but cannot for whatever reason develop all the facilities, should be able to do so at Step 6.

The need for facilities at a standard will always cause discussion. We have that system for the time being and so it needs compliance, but I agree with those who say there should be room for some manoeuvre. For me Step 6 is the place for that in a half way house scenario.

Whether the governing body would ever move toward that I have no idea. And for me, the protection and creation of playing facilities around the country is what part of any Wembley windfall should be for.


(This post was edited by drblues on Oct 4, 2018, 12:09 PM)


paulh66
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Oct 4, 2018, 12:24 PM

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Re: [drblues] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm not for one second saying give up, I'm saying the FA seems to have given up - I see no solution forthcoming from it.


windydcfc
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Oct 4, 2018, 12:42 PM

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Re: [drblues] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

Subject to understanding in full the implications of what being outside the NLS would mean, then I agree that would help the situation. But it seems unlikely to happen and I don't see any other solution waiting to emerge over the horizon either. Mind you, the clubs who were compelled to meet these obligations have now either raised the money and done the work already or been booted out of the system because red tape prevented them from doing so, so it seems largely academic now.


So what you are saying is give up. I would say that if promotion to Step 5 also entailed compliance to facility requirements then those who have already invested are not overtly penalised. If there are regional shortfalls of clubs then 'parachuting' those with facilities over those that cannot or refuse to get them should be on the table. The free flow of clubs that want to progress should be allowed. Clubs who want to participate in the NLS but cannot for whatever reason develop all the facilities, should be able to do so at Step 6.

The need for facilities at a standard will always cause discussion. We have that system for the time being and so it needs compliance, but I agree with those who say there should be room for some manoeuvre. For me Step 6 is the place for that in a half way house scenario.

Whether the governing body would ever move toward that I have no idea. And for me, the protection and creation of playing facilities around the country is what part of any Wembley windfall should be for.



Didn't the step 5/6 league's reject the idea of dumbing down the ground grading requirements at the meeting in Leicester on Sunday. So if the league's don't want it, then no matter what you or anyone wants or thinks on here. It's dead in the water isn't it?


Yeading89
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Oct 4, 2018, 1:33 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree that the step six leagues should be a half way house.If all clubs know that once they reach step six with or without lights etc they will not be promoted if they win the league unless A They want to go up B The work is done before they are promoted,Not all clubs want to reach the heights of semi pro level they cannot afford. Whats wrong with a mix of lights/no lights at step six.
The ambitious clubs will do whats necessary to climb. Their choice.


drblues
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Oct 4, 2018, 3:09 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Didn't the step 5/6 league's reject the idea of dumbing down the ground grading requirements at the meeting in Leicester on Sunday. So if the league's don't want it, then no matter what you or anyone wants or thinks on here. It's dead in the water isn't it?


Yes. But this idea was not on the table. As part of an announced scheme there would be a purpose to any decision change in the future.


drblues
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Oct 4, 2018, 5:29 PM

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Re: [Yeading89] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I agree that the step six leagues should be a half way house.If all clubs know that once they reach step six with or without lights etc they will not be promoted if they win the league unless A They want to go up B The work is done before they are promoted,Not all clubs want to reach the heights of semi pro level they cannot afford. Whats wrong with a mix of lights/no lights at step six.
The ambitious clubs will do whats necessary to climb. Their choice.


Indeed. That is the scenario I would promote.


windydcfc
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Oct 4, 2018, 6:31 PM

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Re: [drblues] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Didn't the step 5/6 league's reject the idea of dumbing down the ground grading requirements at the meeting in Leicester on Sunday. So if the league's don't want it, then no matter what you or anyone wants or thinks on here. It's dead in the water isn't it?


Yes. But this idea was not on the table. As part of an announced scheme there would be a purpose to any decision change in the future.



So the 1-2-4-8-16-16 will come into effect for season 20/21? But the dumbing down of the ground grading at step 6 will be looked at as part of the FA's continual restructure/development?


drblues
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Oct 4, 2018, 7:11 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Didn't the step 5/6 league's reject the idea of dumbing down the ground grading requirements at the meeting in Leicester on Sunday. So if the league's don't want it, then no matter what you or anyone wants or thinks on here. It's dead in the water isn't it?


Yes. But this idea was not on the table. As part of an announced scheme there would be a purpose to any decision change in the future.



So the 1-2-4-8-16-16 will come into effect for season 20/21? But the
dumbing down of the ground grading at step 6 will be looked at as part of the FA's continual restructure/development?


Who knows?


windydcfc
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Oct 4, 2018, 8:04 PM

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Re: [drblues] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Didn't the step 5/6 league's reject the idea of dumbing down the ground grading requirements at the meeting in Leicester on Sunday. So if the league's don't want it, then no matter what you or anyone wants or thinks on here. It's dead in the water isn't it?


Yes. But this idea was not on the table. As part of an announced scheme there would be a purpose to any decision change in the future.



So the 1-2-4-8-16-16 will come into effect for season 20/21? But the
dumbing down of the ground grading at step 6 will be looked at as part of the FA's continual restructure/development?


Who knows?



I thought you might have an idea?


markust
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Oct 5, 2018, 6:07 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I'm sure a league south of Manchester/Liverpool & including the WMRL area makes sense. Maybe the MFL will take some clubs from the NCEL, if it loses it's West Midlands clubs & we'll get a de-facto Central/East Midlands/Coastal League anyway.


If you are talking about adding a few of the NWC clubs to the WMFL then I would totally disagree. Leagues are best set up focused on a city or group of cities. This would leave clubs on the edge of Manchester and Liverpool travelling across large distances of countryside into midlands cities of Wolverhampton and Birmingham, where currently there are plenty of teams on their doorstep.

On the other hand, if you were talking of splitting the current NWC Prem area in half and going North Shropshire, Staffs, Cheshire up to South Manchester, and then North Manchester, West Yorks, Merseyside and Lancs up to Cumbria then you could have something that would work.


(This post was edited by markust on Oct 5, 2018, 6:09 PM)


windydcfc
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Oct 5, 2018, 6:54 PM

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In Reply To
I'm sure a league south of Manchester/Liverpool & including the WMRL area makes sense. Maybe the MFL will take some clubs from the NCEL, if it loses it's West Midlands clubs & we'll get a de-facto Central/East Midlands/Coastal League anyway.


If you are talking about adding a few of the NWC clubs to the WMFL then I would totally disagree. Leagues are best set up focused on a city or group of cities. This would leave clubs on the edge of Manchester and Liverpool travelling across large distances of countryside into midlands cities of Wolverhampton and Birmingham, where currently there are plenty of teams on their doorstep.

On the other hand, if you were talking of splitting the current NWC Prem area in half and going North Shropshire, Staffs, Cheshire up to South Manchester, and then North Manchester, West Yorks, Merseyside and Lancs up to Cumbria then you could have something that would work.



The WMRL is too small & doesn't heave enough suitable clubs to sustain a step 5 league. The Herefordforshire clubs in that league want to move to the Hellenic & they may get their wish if the Hellenic loses it's Home Counties teams. If the FA want's to create a Midlands League in the West Midlands, then using the M6 corridor south of Manchester makes sense to me. The MFL Prem would be covered by the MFL1 & EMCL area/teams


Skippy01
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Oct 24, 2018, 11:40 AM

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Re: [HarryC] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the reduction in step 4 leagues to 20 clubs has been well received, with a couple less long midweek trips welcomed by the likes of Bideford and Guernsey. Hopefully the FALC will consider reducing step 3 leagues to 20 also in conjunction with the final reshuffle to create a new step 4 league.
How part-timers from step 3 clubs such as Merthyr Tydfil, South Shields and Workington are able to do a number of 6 hour round trips midweek and hold down a regular job is beyond me!


Rebel Yeller
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Oct 24, 2018, 11:53 AM

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Re: [Skippy01] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think that clubs have welcomed the reduction in travelling. I'm not so sure that all of them have relished the reduction in the number of actual matches. Every week now I see lots of messages on Twitter from various clubs from Step 3 downwards asking for midweek friendlies. Mid season midweek friendlies have been a rarity for a long time but this season they are making a big comeback. Our local Southern Combination Cup, where pretty much every tie is played midweek, has seen nearly double the number of entries this season over last.

Perhaps there needs to be some more localised competitions created or resurrected. I'm thinking of some of the old "floodlit" leagues that used to exist. I guess most players would rather play than train.


genesimmons
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Oct 24, 2018, 1:24 PM

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I think the reduction in step 4 leagues to 20 clubs has been well received, with a couple less long midweek trips welcomed by the likes of Bideford and Guernsey. Hopefully the FALC will consider reducing step 3 leagues to 20 also in conjunction with the final reshuffle to create a new step 4 league.
How part-timers from step 3 clubs such as Merthyr Tydfil, South Shields and Workington are able to do a number of 6 hour round trips midweek and hold down a regular job is beyond me!

not sure about other 2 but south shields players will be very well paid so could imagine nit all the players will have a full time day job. unsure how workington do it.



You wanted the best, you got the best


blackdouglas
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Oct 25, 2018, 6:22 PM

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In Reply To
I think the reduction in step 4 leagues to 20 clubs has been well received, with a couple less long midweek trips welcomed by the likes of Bideford and Guernsey. Hopefully the FALC will consider reducing step 3 leagues to 20 also in conjunction with the final reshuffle to create a new step 4 league.
How part-timers from step 3 clubs such as Merthyr Tydfil, South Shields and Workington are able to do a number of 6 hour round trips midweek and hold down a regular job is beyond me!

not sure about other 2 but south shields players will be very well paid so could imagine nit all the players will have a full time day job. unsure how workington do it.


I heard once that Workington were training in Preston so I would think very few of their players actually come from the Cumbrian town.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


windydcfc
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Nov 28, 2018, 8:53 PM

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Re: [blackdouglas] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Press Release - How the SWP will allocate spaces in the Two New Step 6 Premier Divisions for season 2019/20 onwards:
PRIORITY FOR FILLING NEW STEP SIX DIVISIONS
From next season the South West Peninsula League will be operating two Divisions at Step 6 (the same as the current Premier Division). In order to populate these divisions, clubs have been invited to apply to the FA by December 31st. Once the full list of applicants is known it is important that the process of selecting them is transparent, so we have agreed the following process:
The two Divisions will each operate under the control of the South West Peninsula League Ltd, who in turn operate under the auspices of the FA at Wembley and it’s Leagues Committee.
In pursuance of the National League System Regulations the yearly make-up of the divisions is governed by The FA, and any club may be required to move in a lateral manner to ensure an even distribution of clubs.
Whilst its expected that the Premier West will be mainly Cornish and the Premier East will be mainly Devon, this is not assured.
Clubs in Devon MAY be moved to an alternative Step 6 Division (Western League) and/or clubs not based in Devon & Cornwall may be moved into the SW Peninsula League – all such matters would be for the leagues committee to rule on and any decision would be appealable to that committee.
Assuming however that the initial constitution is filled by clubs in Devon & Cornwall, the following priority of allocating the maximum of 40 spaces is:
Priority Group ONE:
Clubs who are this season operating in the SWP Premier Division and have not given notice to withdraw by March 31st or been promoted to Step 5 for the following season.
Priority Group TWO:
Clubs who in “any other season” would be entitled to be in Step 6 – Examples are any club relegated from Step 5, any clubs who would have been Promoted from Step 7 and any club laterally transferred or placed in the Division by the FA.
Priority Group THREE:
Clubs who are members of SWP East or SWP West who hold (on March 31st 2019) an FA Ground Grading of G or H including the installation of floodlighting.
Examples include East & West clubs who were (or could have been) entrants in this seasons FA Vase.
Priority Group FOUR:
Clubs who are members of SWP East or SWP West who, on March 31st 2019, can satisfy the league and the FA that they already meet FA Ground Grading H including
active planning permission for any required works including the installation of floodlighting, and give assurances to reach G in full by March 31st 2021.
Should 36 or more clubs (maximum 40) be accepted from groups 1 to 4 inclusive, then no other clubs will be considered for membership.
If less than 36 we may look at:
Priority Group FIVE:
Clubs who are members of SWP East or SWP West who, on March 31st 2019, do not meet FA Ground Grading H, but can satisfy the league AND The FA that they can meet FA Ground Grading G, including the installation of floodlighting, by March 31st 2021.
Clubs accepted under Priority Groups Four & Five will be required to provide a detailed plan and costings of the required work (including grants) and provide a written commitment to meet G in full by March 31st 2021 and further accept that failure to comply WILL result in relegation at the end of the 2020/21 season irrespective of league position.
Clubs in Groups 4 & 5 will not be eligible for promotion to Step 5 or entry into FA Cup or FA Vase, until such time as they have reached the required FA ground grading.
IF spaces remain unfilled from Groups 1 to 5 ONLY, then:
Clubs in the feeder leagues with grounds achieving, or committed to achieve, Grade G by March 31st 2021 may be considered.
Any such clubs will require the FA’s approval to be placed directly at Step 6 and need to provide a detailed background to justify such promotion, it is not sufficient for the SWP alone to allow promotion. League positions of such clubs would also have to demonstrate an ability to compete at Step 6.
ALL clubs – irrespective of which division or league they are now in – Must apply to the FA by December 31st.


Aaron
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Dec 21, 2018, 10:45 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This statement says that the extra step 4 and 5 divisions will be in place by the 2020-21 season. That means next year there need to be extra promotions/reduced relegations to achieve this structure. Have there been any hints about how this might happen?


windydcfc
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Dec 22, 2018, 7:55 AM

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In Reply To
This statement says that the extra step 4 and 5 divisions will be in place by the 2020-21 season. That means next year there need to be extra promotions/reduced relegations to achieve this structure. Have there been any hints about how this might happen?



Not yet & I doubt there will be until the end of the season.


windydcfc
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Jan 27, 2019, 10:01 AM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There’s an article with Laurence Jones about the F.A.’s restructure inside the Nonleague Paper. He’s not said much, but he has mentioned that the Shaw Lane scenario won’t happen again. If a club folds/resigns after the constitutions have been released, then any movements are likely to be kept within leagues.


leohoenig
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Jan 27, 2019, 2:08 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Having seen a tweet with the paper headline shown, and not being able to get see a copy. [It is not on sale at the local supermarket, or anywhere else I know in France], I was going to ask what the report said.



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windydcfc
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Jan 27, 2019, 6:29 PM

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Re: [leohoenig] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I tried to copy the digital link, but I couldn’t attach it to the choose file section. It’s a double page article.
On another issue, I asked when the FA would release the details on the restructuring. They told me that it would be done before the end of this season. So clubs would know what they were playing for when the season starts.


genesimmons
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Jan 29, 2019, 1:18 PM

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There’s an article with Laurence Jones about the F.A.’s restructure inside the Nonleague Paper. He’s not said much, but he has mentioned that the Shaw Lane scenario won’t happen again. If a club folds/resigns after the constitutions have been released, then any movements are likely to be kept within leagues.

Was a good read that article and also justifies why the FA have ground regulations in place that are often seen as over the top. Mind it said there would be 2 automatic promotion places from each step 3 league from 2010 i think onwards. surely they mean 1 automatic and another promotion place to be decided by play offs?



You wanted the best, you got the best


derekn
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Jan 29, 2019, 1:27 PM

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Re: [genesimmons] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

2010?

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