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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA statement on future pyramid

 

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paulh66
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Jun 19, 2018, 5:26 PM

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FA statement on future pyramid Can't Post or Reply Privately

Confirmation that were heading for a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid by 2020-21, together with acknowledgement that the halfway house were currently at isn't perfect.
http://www.thefa.com/...ion-statement-190618


Richard Rundle
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Jun 19, 2018, 6:26 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Confirmation that were heading for a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid by 2020-21, together with acknowledgement that the halfway house were currently at isn't perfect.
http://www.thefa.com/...ion-statement-190618


Just what we need. Not. More and more clubs promoted to higher and higher leagues. What a shambles. Does anyone at the FA know anything about non-league football?


doktorb berske
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Jun 19, 2018, 6:57 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Confirmation that were heading for a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid by 2020-21, together with acknowledgement that the halfway house were currently at isn't perfect.
http://www.thefa.com/...ion-statement-190618

There is nothing wrong with the pyramid system, and there's no credible alternative to the pyramid system. BUT, and it's a big but, the FA appear to have chosen a destination without any kind of route or plan.

Having this mid-way point only makes things more confusing than they really are.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


Tim
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Jun 19, 2018, 6:57 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Absolute cobblers, as ever. The FA demonstrate once again they have no understanding of the real nature of football below Conference level, and that they are obsessed with neat pyramids on spreadsheets, believing this to be the answer to all the problems that never really existed in the first place. Promotion and relegation being decided by PPG comparisons with teams hundreds of miles away is ridiculous.

Does anybody know a tame MP who would like to make a name for him/herself by stirring things up?


doktorb berske
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:00 PM

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Re: [Tim] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Absolute cobblers, as ever. The FA demonstrate once again they have no understanding of the real nature of football below Conference level, and that they are obsessed with neat pyramids on spreadsheets, believing this to be the answer to all the problems that never really existed in the first place. Promotion and relegation being decided by PPG comparisons with teams hundreds of miles away is ridiculous.

Does anybody know a tame MP who would like to make a name for him/herself by stirring things up?


I agree that the format of the current reorganisation is a bit bonkers, but the end-point is a fair one. A simple to understand, clear to work with pyramid makes perfect sense. The structure of non-league only looks confusing because England is a big country with a distorted shape, making the regional divisions seem a bit lopsided.

The pyramid is the only workable way to have a football league with promotion and relegation, nothing else works. How the FA will get us there is the major problem, as we can see with the current halfway house shambles.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


Bantam Cymraeg
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:11 PM

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

England's not a big country. According to Wiki, the UK is the 78th biggest country by area in the world, and England is less than half the size of the UK as a whole.


Tim
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:17 PM

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

League football has gone along quite nicely for 130 years. It wasn't perfect but it was mostly OK. We haven't needed PPG in all that time and we don't need it now. Imagine your young child asking,'What happens if we finish in second place?' and trying to explain that your team might go up, but might not if after a complex series of play offs a team you've never heard of 300 miles away has a better PPG. Cobblers, I maintain.


doktorb berske
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:19 PM

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Re: [Bantam Cymraeg] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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England's not a big country. According to Wiki, the UK is the 78th biggest country by area in the world, and England is less than half the size of the UK as a whole.

But it's a lopsided one, as we keep saying on this forum, were England a rectangle the FA would have it easy.

Instead we have an irregular square-ish splodge with sticky out bits, population centred all over the place, and with no fair way to divide up the population without sending some near neighbours into opposite directions.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


doktorb berske
Youth Team Regular

Jun 19, 2018, 7:24 PM

Posts: 183
Location: PR1
Team(s): Burscough

Post #9 of 292 (25009 views)
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Re: [Tim] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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League football has gone along quite nicely for 130 years. It wasn't perfect but it was mostly OK. We haven't needed PPG in all that time and we don't need it now. Imagine your young child asking,'What happens if we finish in second place?' and trying to explain that your team might go up, but might not if after a complex series of play offs a team you've never heard of 300 miles away has a better PPG. Cobblers, I maintain.

But the current PPG system is only a response to the halfway house the FA finds itself in until it gets to the end of its restructuring process. It's not great, and I'm not sat here applauding it, but if we're going to move towards a pyramid which is fair and easy to understand, there needs to be a process that gets a tad messy along the way.

League football has always been based on divisions, leagues, promotions, relegations, geographic spread (Division 3 North, and South, anyone?!) and all the rest of it. The system has always needed structure, and there's no credible alternative but the pyramid.

What we have now is a bit of a mess, but it's all working towards a 'perfect pyramid' and I say that the current problems will all seem worth it in the end.

Incidentally, children are far smarter than we'd like to admit. If they can understand Minecraft and the tangled web of the Marvel Universe backstory, they can sure as heck understand PPG.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 19, 2018, 7:29 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We're the clubs asked if they wanted this "perfect" pyramid?


Tim
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:29 PM

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We must agree to disagree. The structure in place pre-2004 was close to ideal: all that was ever needed was a shuffle round of clubs in the south east.

I hope the new pyramid makes lots of people very happy. I will continue to think it's cobblers. I know I am not alone.


Tykeoldboy
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Jun 19, 2018, 7:32 PM

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Re: [Tim] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The document makes sense to me. The situation at the moment isn't ideal but it is temporary. The new structure for 2020/21 will create standardisation, and cut travelling and costs by placing teams by location and not by the league they reside.


doktorb berske
Youth Team Regular

Jun 19, 2018, 7:33 PM

Posts: 183
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Re: [ladderman] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We're the clubs asked if they wanted this "perfect" pyramid?

Were clubs asked if they wanted to stay in stagnant, over-sized regional leagues with a pick-n-mix approach to promotion?



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


doktorb berske
Youth Team Regular

Jun 19, 2018, 7:37 PM

Posts: 183
Location: PR1
Team(s): Burscough

Post #14 of 292 (24949 views)
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Re: [Tykeoldboy] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The document makes sense to me. The situation at the moment isn't ideal but it is temporary. The new structure for 2020/21 will create standardisation, and cut travelling and costs by placing teams by location and not by the league they reside.


Exactly this, I agree entirely. Things only look a mess at the moment because, well, I guess things are a bit messy. To restructure the current pyramid needs more than just one push, it needs a series of changes and improvements to get to the desired end point.

I said first thing in this thread that the FA seemed to have a destination but without a proper route-map. I'm happy that they chose to do things in stages. As you say, the pyramid will soon have obvious promotion and relegation pathways, more compact geographical spread, and affordable journey times. Getting there is worth the current pain, I really do believe that.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 19, 2018, 8:16 PM

Posts: 7162
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Were e the clubs asked if they wanted this "perfect" pyramid?

Were clubs asked if they wanted to stay in stagnant, over-sized regional leagues with a pick-n-mix approach to promotion?


That would be a very loaded question. Are the current leagues less stagnant?


BillShep
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:21 PM

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree with doktorb berske....

Has anybody tried to renovate their house..?
The mess it looks midway through is horrendous...
When it starts to take shape and you get the finished product you are normally pleased with what has been done....



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AGrimevertonian
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:46 PM

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Re: [BillShep] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm all in favour and cant see why it was not done this season , 1-2-4-8-16 and with 20 clubs to each. As long as the promotion and relegation is standard from top to bottom 3/4 up 3/4 down


paulh66
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:48 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
Just what we need. Not. More and more clubs promoted to higher and higher leagues. What a shambles. Does anyone at the FA know anything about non-league football?


Alternatively, to all intents and purposes, they'll have ended up simply redistributing six steps worth of clubs across five steps. That in itself has to be a good thing. Likewise the fact that the latest fad, PPG, as well as the crass playoff system in which potential winning teams can't go up, should only be a temporary measure.

Less good will be the increased number of clubs facing higher unnecessary grading demands, retention of compulsory promotions and, I suspect, the FALC continuing to be a law unto itself.


PaulC
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:53 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well the northern half of the country needs two more Step 5 leagues so I'm sure that's where' they'll be created.

No I'm not.


Richard Rundle
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:55 PM

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Re: [PaulC] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Well the northern half of the country needs two more Step 5 leagues so I'm sure that's where' they'll be created.

No I'm not.


And the true South West needs help to be involved at Step 5, and we know they're not going to get it either.


PaulC
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Jun 19, 2018, 8:55 PM

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Re: [BillShep] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I agree with doktorb berske....

Has anybody tried to renovate their house..?
The mess it looks midway through is horrendous...
When it starts to take shape and you get the finished product you are normally pleased with what has been done....


Though, when you're building a house you tend not to start with the roof.


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 19, 2018, 8:57 PM

Posts: 10565
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Well the northern half of the country needs two more Step 5 leagues so I'm sure that's where' they'll be created.

No I'm not.


And the true South West needs help to be involved at Step 5, and we know they're not going to get it either.


Maybe they'll just ask the Isthmian League to administer them. It'll save a lot of bother.


Richard Rundle
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Jun 19, 2018, 9:00 PM

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Re: [PaulC] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Well the northern half of the country needs two more Step 5 leagues so I'm sure that's where' they'll be created.

No I'm not.


And the true South West needs help to be involved at Step 5, and we know they're not going to get it either.


Maybe they'll just ask the Isthmian League to administer them. It'll save a lot of bother.


Or even worse, as seems likely with the new Step 7 divisions, the County FAs.


paulh66
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Jun 19, 2018, 9:02 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
And the true South West needs help to be involved at Step 5, and we know they're not going to get it either.


Must admit I'm still at a loss to understand what the upcoming restructure in the south west - rehashing the SWP League into two step 6 divisions - is intended to achieve. From afar, it seems to be fixing something that isn't broken and also leaves Cornish clubs even more isolated in relation to the rest of step 6.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 19, 2018, 9:03 PM)


Richard Rundle
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Jun 19, 2018, 9:11 PM

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Re: [paulh66] FA statement on future pyramid [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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And the true South West needs help to be involved at Step 5, and we know they're not going to get it either.


Must admit I'm still at a loss to understand what the upcoming restructure in the south west - rehashing the SWP League into two step 6 divisions - is intended to achieve. From afar, it seems to be fixing something that isn't broken and also leaves Cornish clubs even more isolated in relation to the rest of step 6.


Bingo! My thoughts exactly. And I haven't heard of one club currently playing at Step 7 who wants to be adminstered by either of the county FAs or the Devon & Exeter League.

Some stories from a series of meetings held by the FA to explain things down here where the FA guys doing the presentations didn't really know what they were presenting and contradicted themselves over the series of meetings. One thing that has come up which I don't think can be true is that promotion from the new Step 6 East (i.e. Devon) will be compulsory but not from the new Step 6 West (i.e. Cornwall).

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