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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Promotion/Relegation rules for next season

 

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Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 27, 2018, 11:46 AM

Posts: 3525
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #51 of 82 (2503 views)
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Re: [Tim] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I think it's reasonable to assume that those involved at Andover Town aren't best pleased at being relegated a division for the crime of turning down a promotion they probably couldn't afford. I suspect they are too polite to say so.


Andover town are not a league.
You are not really commenting on what i said.


If you read my earlier post, you will see that I was suggesting, perhaps not clearly enough, that a club might make a legal challenge.


Ok. The club obviously have the option of an appeal. The result of that is supposed to be final and binding.
If a club has previously agreed to this they would have great difficulty getting the court to even listen to their challenge.
But even if they could the FA would move heaven and earth not to lose it because then their authority is effectively seriously diminished.
And of course we are talking in this case of clubs who say that they can not afford promotion.
So can they afford a legal challenge of this kind.
On the subject of the leagues. I dont see any officials of leagues being all that outspoken in their criticism of the LC.
Mike Amos was but now i am not aware of anyone.


paulh66
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May 27, 2018, 12:20 PM

Posts: 16943
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #52 of 82 (2471 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, they've done all the politicking and there's no longer any significant level of dissent from leagues and league officials. Whether they've captured the hearts and minds of clubs and the people who make clubs work is a different matter. But who cares about them? After all, if they don't like the rules foisted upon them/they've happily signed up to (delete as appropriate), they can just leave the pyramid...


(This post was edited by paulh66 on May 27, 2018, 12:30 PM)


shimtoan
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May 27, 2018, 1:10 PM

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Post #53 of 82 (2433 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

enforced promotion wasn't announced until part way through the season, and it was only brought up that there could be multiple promotions from a single Step 5 division during the season.
Heck, the decision to bring in extra divisions at Steps 3 and 4 wasn't announced until the season was underway.
How are you supposed to properly prepare for the next season when the rules change part way through the current one?



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


Mr. T
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May 27, 2018, 2:24 PM

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Post #54 of 82 (2355 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Heck, the decision to bring in extra divisions at Steps 3 and 4 wasn't announced until the season was underway.
How are you supposed to properly prepare for the next season when the rules change part way through the current one?

Not so. The proposals were announced during the 2016-17 season.


Chris M
Reserve Team Sub

May 27, 2018, 6:30 PM

Posts: 424
Location: Sheffield
Team(s): Everton, Marine, Sheffield FC, Hallam

Post #55 of 82 (2236 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Just seems to me that some people sit around looking for any ideas to change the game for changes sake. Hope we are not going to go down the road of relegation for any club who oppose such a crackpot idea should it come to fruition.



What you call a ‘crackpot idea’ is in the FA rules & regs for season 2019/20. I can’t see why clubs & leagues that have been asking for more promotions from step 5 would oppose it. Unless you know otherwise?


You seem to believe that something being a decision of the Leagues Committee, and it being utterly moronic are somehow mutually exclusive concepts.

If only this were actually true. Sadly, it isn't.


(This post was edited by Chris M on May 27, 2018, 6:31 PM)


Tim
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Jun 13, 2018, 7:51 PM

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Post #56 of 82 (1532 views)
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Re: [Irm22] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This from Stourbridge's website:

The NLS regulations for 2018/19 have been published and outline how promotion and relegation will apply at the end of next season.

The addition of an extra league at steps 3 and 4 of the non-league pyramid means that there have been certain adjustments made to the National League Systems regulations as to how promotion and relegation matters will apply at the end of the 2018/19 campaign and these are outlined below -

Between Step 2 and Step 3

The Clubs in the bottom three places in each of the two divisions (National League North & South) at Step 2 at the end of the Regular Season will be relegated to a feeder pool and placed in the most geographically appropriate division at Step 3 for the following Playing Season.

They will be replaced by the Clubs finishing in 1st position in each of the four divisions at Step 3 together with a further two Clubs determined by a series of Play Off Matches.

Where a Club finishes in 1st position but does not meet the criteria for participation at the next Step, the Club finishing in 2nd position shall be promoted and the Club finishing in 3rd position (and so on) shall be the Club in the next eligible position to take part in the Play Off Matches.

Where a Club finishes in a Play Off Position but does not meet the Criteria for participation in Play Off Matches the Club finishing in the next eligible position shall take part in the Play Off Matches.

In each division at Step 3, the Play Off Matches shall be played so that the highest placed of the eligible Clubs plays against the lowest placed and the other two Clubs play each other (the “Step 3 Initial Play Off Matches”);.

The winners of each of the Step 3 Initial Play Off Matches will play each other, resulting in one winner in each of the four Step 3 divisions (the “Step 3 Divisional Play Off Winners”).

The Step 3 Divisional Play Off Winners will play a further match against each other. The ties will be decided by the Committee pairing Clubs on the most suitable geographical basis.

The ties will be played on a single match basis with the home Club being the Club with the best points per match ratio in the Regular Season.

If there are only three eligible Clubs then the highest placed shall receive a bye to a second match where it will play the winner of the other Play Off Match and the winner of that match will play in the further Play Off Match described above. Clubs finishing below position 7 will not be considered for Play Off Matches.

The promoted Clubs will be placed in a feeder pool and placed in the most geographically appropriate division at Step 2.

Step 3 and Step 4

The Clubs in the bottom three places in each of the four divisions at Step 3 at the end of the Regular Season will be relegated to a feeder pool and placed in the most geographically appropriate division at Step 4 for the following Playing Season.

They will be replaced by the Club finishing in 1st position in each of the seven divisions at Step 4 together with a further five Clubs to be determined by a series of Play Off Matches.

Where a Club finishes in 1st position but does not meet the Criteria for participation at the next Step, the Club finishing in 2nd position shall be promoted and the Club finishing in 3rd position (and so on) shall be the Club in the next eligible position to take part in the Play Off Matches.

Where a Club finishes in a Play Off Position but does not meet the Criteria for participation in Play Off Matches the Club finishing in the next eligible position shall take part in the Play Off Matches.

In each division at Step 4, The Play Off Matches shall be played so that the highest placed of the eligible Clubs plays against the lowest placed and the other two Clubs play each other (the “Step 4 Initial Play Off Matches”).

The winners of each of the Step 4 Initial Play Off Matches will play each other and the winner of those matches shall result in seven teams eligible for promotion.

The five Clubs to be promoted shall be the five Clubs out of the seven divisional Play Off winners with the best points per match ratio in the Regular Season.

If there are only three eligible Clubs then the highest placed shall receive a bye to a second match where it will play the winner of the other Play Off Match and the winner of that match will be promoted. Clubs finishing below position 7 will not be considered for Play Off Matches.

The promoted Clubs will be placed in a feeder pool and placed in the most geographically appropriate division at Step 3.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, any system that takes that long to explain is no good.


Sarumio
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 13, 2018, 7:54 PM

Posts: 5756
Location: Ilminster
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Post #57 of 82 (1526 views)
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Re: [Tim] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sack them, sack the of them - that is hideous, confusing, ridiculous and a nightmare for clubs, players and supporters alike!


Who the hell is running the FA these days?


steveking
Reserve Team Regular

Jun 13, 2018, 8:48 PM

Posts: 655
Location: Surbiton
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Post #58 of 82 (1430 views)
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Re: [Tim] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This presumably means you could have a Step 4 play-off final with one or both teams whose PPG is sufficiently low for them to know that whatever the result they cannot be promoted. I guess that could even be the case at the semi-final stage.


Martin8
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Jun 13, 2018, 9:00 PM

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Post #59 of 82 (1397 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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This presumably means you could have a Step 4 play-off final with one or both teams whose PPG is sufficiently low for them to know that whatever the result they cannot be promoted. I guess that could even be the case at the semi-final stage.


Good point. A better system would be once the seven playoff winners are known is to promote the three with the best regular season record and pair off the other four and promote the two winners of the two extra matches. Not ideal, but at least there would be no meaningless matches.


GRIFFON
First Team Star

Jun 13, 2018, 9:01 PM

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Post #60 of 82 (1393 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Gobbledegook! Just can't be bothered, inmates running the asylumCrazy


Dr Love
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Jun 13, 2018, 9:02 PM

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Post #61 of 82 (1393 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It would even be possible to have all four playoff qualifers in two divisons unable to be promoted.

It's going to be a bit awkward having seven divisions going up into four, but they could surely manage better than this.


Tim
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 13, 2018, 9:17 PM

Posts: 7644
Location: Stourbridge
Team(s): Stourbridge, Welton Rovers

Post #62 of 82 (1353 views)
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Re: [Dr Love] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Only a month ago we had the nonsensical situation of Hartley Wintney hosting a play off final they didn't need to win in order to gain promotion. Now we have this nonsense. These people clearly lack the ability to learn from their mistakes.

I can't wait to see the system for movement between Steps 4 and 5.


paulh66
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Jun 13, 2018, 9:23 PM

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Post #63 of 82 (1341 views)
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Re: [Tim] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You did ask.....

Step 4 and Step 5

The Clubs in the bottom two places in each of the seven divisions at Step 4 at the end of the Regular Season will be relegated and placed in the most geographically appropriate division at Step 5. These Clubs will be replaced by the fourteen Clubs finishing in first position in each of the fourteen divisions at Step 5 at the end of the Regular Season.

With effect from the commencement of the 2019/20 season, the following will apply:
In addition, a series of Play Off Matches shall be played between the Clubs finishing in second position in each of the Leagues at Step 5 at the end of the Regular Season. The ties shall be decided by the Association pairing Clubs on the most suitable geographical basis. These matches shall be played on a single match basis on the ground of the Club with the best points per match ratio in the Regular Season. The winners of each of these seven matches shall play a final Play Off Match against one of the Clubs finishing third from bottom of each Step 4 division at the end of the Regular Season, such matches to be decided by the Association so that each Step 4 Club plays a Step 5 Club; such matches to be on a single match basis on the home ground of the Step 4 Club on cup tie terms with no percentage being paid to any Competition. The seven winners shall play at Step 4 in the following season.

The Clubs promoted from Step 5 will be allocated to the most geographically appropriate division at Step 4.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 13, 2018, 9:24 PM)


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 13, 2018, 9:40 PM

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Post #64 of 82 (1301 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

James Joyce's "Ulysses" makes more sense.


petermiller36
First Team Sub

Jun 13, 2018, 9:47 PM

Posts: 1006
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Post #65 of 82 (1285 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've gone through the FA guidelines for next season and knocked up my spreadsheet for 2018/2019. Originally this was set up for the bottleneck at Steps 4 to 5. I cannot believe that the FA are using PPG for so many issues and levels.

If you wonderful people and experts wouldn't mind going through and checking for errors than that would be great.

http://bit.ly/PPG1819



Step 4 Relegation and Step 5 Promotion Document:
http://bit.ly/2018Step4and5


mick
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jun 13, 2018, 10:16 PM

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Post #66 of 82 (1223 views)
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Re: [Dr Love] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's going to be a bit awkward having seven divisions going up into four, but they could surely manage better than this.


The Spanish manage to promote from 18 divisions at level 4 to four divisions at level 3 without too much difficulty.


steveking
Reserve Team Regular

Jun 17, 2018, 10:52 PM

Posts: 655
Location: Surbiton
Team(s): Ware, Everton, Kingstonian, Leicester, Portsmouth

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Re: [petermiller36] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's been a long day so I might have got this wrong. I'm sure Pete will put me right if so but with the Step 4 play-offs there is no point in the two teams with the lowest PPG from taking part. It's wasted effort so they might as well drop out giving byes to their intended opponents. Of course if they do drop out then the next two clubs with the lowest PPG will be in the same position so they might as well drop out too. This process will go on until we are left with the five clubs with the highest PPG. Thus no need for play-offs.
As I say, I might be wrong. Happy to be corrected if so.


Tim
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 17, 2018, 11:16 PM

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Post #68 of 82 (660 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's been a long day so I might have got this wrong. I'm sure Pete will put me right if so but with the Step 4 play-offs there is no point in the two teams with the lowest PPG from taking part. It's wasted effort so they might as well drop out giving byes to their intended opponents. Of course if they do drop out then the next two clubs with the lowest PPG will be in the same position so they might as well drop out too. This process will go on until we are left with the five clubs with the highest PPG. Thus no need for play-offs.
As I say, I might be wrong. Happy to be corrected if so.


But unfortunately if they drop out - it's compulsory relegation.


Bullet Header
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Jun 18, 2018, 12:14 AM

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Post #69 of 82 (612 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Below is a link to a PDF of the 2018-19 NLS Regulations
http://scefl.com/...ulations_2018-19.pdf

The possibility of a team or teams REFUSING to participate in the play-offs, rather than for not meeting the criteria, I don't think has been considered, unless I've missed it.
It's worth remembering that in most years additional places seem to open up because somebody goes belly-up or resigns.
So it may well be that more than 5 play-off winning sides at step 4 will go up, but they might possibly not know it for a week or two later after the event!!!


(This post was edited by leohoenig on Jun 18, 2018, 6:32 AM)


Bullet Header
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Jun 18, 2018, 8:21 AM

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Re: [Bullet Header] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

One other sub plot is that the play-off matches - both semi-finals and finals - don't all get played on the same day - or at least they generally haven't up to now because the three Leagues do their own thing when it comes to the dates. The NPL step 4 play-off finals have been on the Saturday, the Isthmian on the Saturday and Sunday and the Southern League on the May Day Bank Holiday Monday.
If the same occurs this time, the NPL step 4 play-off winners will be setting the benchmark, whilst the Southern League step 4 play-off finalists will have some idea of their fate - win or lose on the Monday.


petermiller36
First Team Sub

Jun 18, 2018, 10:14 AM

Posts: 1006
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Post #71 of 82 (413 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's been a long day so I might have got this wrong. I'm sure Pete will put me right if so but with the Step 4 play-offs there is no point in the two teams with the lowest PPG from taking part. It's wasted effort so they might as well drop out giving byes to their intended opponents. Of course if they do drop out then the next two clubs with the lowest PPG will be in the same position so they might as well drop out too. This process will go on until we are left with the five clubs with the highest PPG. Thus no need for play-offs.
As I say, I might be wrong. Happy to be corrected if so.


Steve, I could never correct you...

...however Wink

There is the situation where it won't be be just two sides that have nothing to play for. If all the sides in the playoffs of the Isthmian North and Isthmian South East end up on 1.500 PPG and then the other five divisions all have sides finishing on 1.600 PPG then it basically will mean the eight 1.500 sides have nothing to play for.

As "Bullet Header" points out though, things can change after the end of the season. Take Wimborne Town for example, they got promotion as a lucky loser after the season was finished.

I would say that that scenario is unlikely though as Step 3 reprieves will take precedence over extra Step 4 sides being promoted.



Step 4 Relegation and Step 5 Promotion Document:
http://bit.ly/2018Step4and5


HarryC
First Team Star

Jun 18, 2018, 10:28 AM

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Post #72 of 82 (393 views)
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Re: [Tim] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
It's been a long day so I might have got this wrong. I'm sure Pete will put me right if so but with the Step 4 play-offs there is no point in the two teams with the lowest PPG from taking part. It's wasted effort so they might as well drop out giving byes to their intended opponents. Of course if they do drop out then the next two clubs with the lowest PPG will be in the same position so they might as well drop out too. This process will go on until we are left with the five clubs with the highest PPG. Thus no need for play-offs.
As I say, I might be wrong. Happy to be corrected if so.


But unfortunately if they drop out - it's compulsory relegation.


Although most clubs get on with everyone, there could be a club finishing 5th with poor ppg that will go all out to still win that divisions play off to stop a side above them that they do not like from winning it and going up.


steveking
Reserve Team Regular

Jun 18, 2018, 11:00 AM

Posts: 655
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Team(s): Ware, Everton, Kingstonian, Leicester, Portsmouth

Post #73 of 82 (346 views)
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Re: [HarryC] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I take all the points people have made but it still seems to me that this is more of a dog's breakfast than I first thought.


paulh66
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Jun 18, 2018, 11:16 AM

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Post #74 of 82 (325 views)
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I take all the points people have made but it still seems to me that this is more of a dog's breakfast than I first thought.


Undoubtedly a dog's breakfast but I suspect part of a wider strategy to morph to a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid. Whether where we're at is an inevitable half-way house on that journey or a deliberate botch job to help ensure a smooth passage from here onwards to that far more appealing endgame is probably open to question.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 18, 2018, 11:17 AM)


leohoenig
Administrator

Jun 18, 2018, 11:18 AM

Posts: 12145
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Re: [steveking] Promotion/Relegation rules for next season [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There will be at least two teams at both semi-final and final level that know they cannot be promoted, even by winning.When you get to the final, the most probably factor is that there will be TEAM A (Can get promoted) v TEAM B (Cannot get promoted)- which surely is a disincentive to TEAM B. They may well feel that it is better to let the team in their own division go up than one from a different part of the country



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com

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