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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Regulations 2018/19

 

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Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 10:43 AM

Posts: 3886
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Post #1 of 39 (7443 views)
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Regulations 2018/19 Can't Post or Reply Privately

Rule 7.2

Still says no reserves allowed to enter step 5 but reserves already at step 5 can stay but if relegated can not come back.
But surely there are not any reserves sides left at step 5?
Pointless rule or have i over looked someone.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 8, 2018, 10:54 AM

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Post #2 of 39 (7418 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Rule 7.2

Still says no reserves allowed to enter step 5 but reserves already at step 5 can stay but if relegated can not come back.
But surely there are not any reserves sides left at step 5?
Pointless rule or have i over looked someone.



Oxford City Nomads



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Sarumio
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Jun 8, 2018, 11:00 AM

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Post #3 of 39 (7399 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Rule 7.2

Still says no reserves allowed to enter step 5 but reserves already at step 5 can stay but if relegated can not come back.
But surely there are not any reserves sides left at step 5?
Pointless rule or have i over looked someone.



Oxford City Nomads


And Brackley Town Saints?


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 11:08 AM

Posts: 3886
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Post #4 of 39 (7372 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Rule 7.2

Still says no reserves allowed to enter step 5 but reserves already at step 5 can stay but if relegated can not come back.
But surely there are not any reserves sides left at step 5?
Pointless rule or have i over looked someone.



Oxford City Nomads


And Brackley Town Saints?


Yes just looking at them. Got into step 5 in 2014.
But that rule has been there for years.
Rule conveniently overlooked again?
Got in as Brackley Town development but i can not see the difference between that and a reserve side or any individual rule for development sides.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Jun 8, 2018, 11:10 AM)


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 8, 2018, 11:43 AM

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Post #5 of 39 (7285 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If they register as separate clubs then they won't be reserves.



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 8, 2018, 11:48 AM

Posts: 6311
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Post #6 of 39 (7264 views)
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Re: [KnowYourMarket] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If they register as separate clubs then they won't be reserves.


But we know they're not separate. The FA knows they're not separate, the league knows they're not separate.

A registration does not make you a separate club. REALITY makes you a separate club, and Brackley Town Saints do not have that reality. Their badge is based on Brackley Town, their suffix is Brackley Town's nickname, they play at Brackley Town's gorund, in Brackley Town's colours, and are covered on Brackley Town's Official website.

They are Brackley Town's reserve side! No amount of separate registrations is going to change that!


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 11:48 AM

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Post #7 of 39 (7262 views)
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Re: [KnowYourMarket] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If they register as separate clubs then they won't be reserves.


Is that what they both did?


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 12:00 PM

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Post #8 of 39 (7221 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Absolutely right.
Playing with rules drives me mad as well.
No point in having rules if they are brushed to one side by
manipulation of the language when they feel minded to.


kivo
First Team Regular


Jun 8, 2018, 12:03 PM

Posts: 1209
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Post #9 of 39 (7206 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Next step will be Chelsea buying Oxford City Nomads, renaming them Chelsea Nomads and next thing you know we have Chelsea reserves in League One.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 8, 2018, 12:11 PM

Posts: 19270
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Post #10 of 39 (7181 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If they register as separate clubs then they won't be reserves.


But we know they're not separate. The FA knows they're not separate, the league knows they're not separate.

A registration does not make you a separate club. REALITY makes you a separate club, and Brackley Town Saints do not have that reality. Their badge is based on Brackley Town, their suffix is Brackley Town's nickname, they play at Brackley Town's gorund, in Brackley Town's colours, and are covered on Brackley Town's Official website.

They are Brackley Town's reserve side! No amount of separate registrations is going to change that!


They are not Brackley Town's reserve side by any stretch of the imagination. The reality is Brackley Town do not and cannot field, say, fringe first teamers or those recovering from injury in Saints team, likewise Saints players do not and cannot force their way into Town's first team. They are two distinct and separate teams, with separately registered players, connected to the one club.

People really need to start getting used to this model because it's been here a while now and is only likely to become more prevalent in the future. So long as safeguards are in place to preserve the integrity of competition - and I'm not aware of Saints or OCN falling foul of any of that, unlike say a true reserve side such as Weymouth's, whose attitude to the Wessex I thought was very poor - then there can surely be no problem.


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 8, 2018, 12:13 PM

Posts: 10971
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Post #11 of 39 (7170 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If they register as separate clubs then they won't be reserves.


But we know they're not separate. The FA knows they're not separate, the league knows they're not separate.

A registration does not make you a separate club. REALITY makes you a separate club, and Brackley Town Saints do not have that reality. Their badge is based on Brackley Town, their suffix is Brackley Town's nickname, they play at Brackley Town's gorund, in Brackley Town's colours, and are covered on Brackley Town's Official website.

They are Brackley Town's reserve side! No amount of separate registrations is going to change that!


It doesn't matter what you or I think. There have been plenty of pseudo reserve sides knocking around to make up step 7 divisions. Why would they be called something other than reserves if it wasn't necessary? Why are Brackley Town Saints not called Brackley Town reserves?

So there must be a reason to register more than 1 club whether you like it or not.



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 8, 2018, 12:15 PM

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Post #12 of 39 (7167 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Absolutely right.
Playing with rules drives me mad as well.
No point in having rules if they are brushed to one side by
manipulation of the language when they feel minded to.


I think its even more dumbfoundingly simple than that though.

Brackley Town: Hi...um...FA...we'd please like to have our Reserves/Development side promoted to Step5, pretty please.

FA: Bismillah, No, we cannot let you go!

Brackley: Um Why?

FA: We've made a rule that says Reserves cannot go up to Step 5 anymore.

Brackley: Oh, anything we can do to get around it?

FA: Well....You could just remove the word "Reserves/Development" from your name, call yourself something different to your parent club...Oh and fill out this form that will declare you as separate club, even though we all know you aren't separate in the slightest! Mwahahahahahaha

Brackley: Cheers FA.

FA: No Probs.

Brackley: Right form filled out and we're going with a Saints suffix

FA: Perfect, love it, that'll fool everyone! Welcome to Step 5.


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2018, 12:23 PM

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Post #13 of 39 (7145 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You really think that? Just think for a moment about what the word "reserve" actually means. Then the system, and the realities that lay behind it, might make a bit more sense to you.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 12:33 PM

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Post #14 of 39 (7103 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
You really think that? Just think for a moment about what the word "reserve" actually means. Then the system, and the realities that lay behind it, might make a bit more sense to you.


But if as is being said they play in Brackley Towns colours at the same ground and are covered on their website thats enough evidence that they are the same club.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2018, 12:37 PM

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Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #15 of 39 (7087 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
You really think that? Just think for a moment about what the word "reserve" actually means. Then the system, and the realities that lay behind it, might make a bit more sense to you.


Perhaps the removal of the word reserves from the regulations might help.
It might seem more laboured but refer to them as any team connected to the club which is not their first team might cover it better.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 8, 2018, 12:47 PM

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Post #16 of 39 (7045 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
You really think that? Just think for a moment about what the word "reserve" actually means. Then the system, and the realities that lay behind it, might make a bit more sense to you.


But if as is being said they play in Brackley Towns colours at the same ground and are covered on their website thats enough evidence that they are the same club.


As I said, they are two distinct and separate teams, with separately registered players, connected to the one club. I don't know if they're so far removed as to be separate legal entities - I doubt it, though that's not really relevant.

Looking ahead, clubs these days are being actively encouraged - not least by the FA and various funding bodies - to run more and more teams across the various age groups. It'd just be absurd to then create an unnecessary bottleneck by insisting these clubs can only run one adult team in the pyramid. It'd either deprive the pyramid of talent, or deprive the club of players it's helped develop, or, even worse, leave more of these players to drift out of the game altogether because the club they're most connected to wouldn't be allowed to give them enough opportunity.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 8, 2018, 12:48 PM)


Unicorn
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Jun 8, 2018, 12:59 PM

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Post #17 of 39 (6998 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
You really think that? Just think for a moment about what the word "reserve" actually means. Then the system, and the realities that lay behind it, might make a bit more sense to you.


But if as is being said they play in Brackley Towns colours at the same ground and are covered on their website thats enough evidence that they are the same club.


As I said, they are two distinct and separate teams, with separately registered players, connected to the one club. I don't know if they're so far removed as to be separate legal entities - I doubt it, though that's not really relevant.

Looking ahead, clubs these days are being actively encouraged - not least by the FA and various funding bodies - to run more and more teams across the various age groups. It'd just be absurd to then create an unnecessary bottleneck by insisting these clubs can only run one adult team in the pyramid. It'd either deprive the pyramid of talent, or deprive the club of players it's helped develop, or, even worse, leave more of these players to drift out of the game altogether because the club they're most connected to wouldn't be allowed to give them enough opportunity.


Its not that i would want to restrict the number of sides any club has in the pyramid.
But the rules should totally and utterly clear not open to interpretation.
The regulations for the operation of the NLS should be three times as large as they are and cover everything that could reasonably be expected to happen.
No ambiguity. No doubts about anything.


AndyE
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Jun 8, 2018, 1:02 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If Oxford City Nomads are absolutely not in any way whatsoever the same club as Oxford City, why don't they play in the FA Cup?


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2018, 1:08 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I far prefer a principles-based approach because rules - now matter how hard you try - will never cover every eventuality. USA is the starkest example of that - a rules-based society in which people can get rich concocting ever-more contrived ways around the rules, and a rules base society which consequently relies on lawyers for, well, almost everything!

By comparison, the FA is a model of efficiency....though the 41 appeals it's in the process of handling suggests they haven't quite yet got to grips with the principles required to underpin a fully effective pyramid!


Chris M
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Jun 8, 2018, 1:10 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I far prefer a principles-based approach because rules - now matter how hard you try - will never cover every eventuality. USA is the starkest example of that - a rules-based society in which people can get rich concocting ever-more contrived ways around the rules, and a rules base society which consequently relies on lawyers for, well, almost everything!

By comparison, the FA is a model of efficiency....though the 41 appeals it's in the process of handling suggests they haven't quite yet got to grips with the principles required to underpin a fully effective pyramid!


As the old saw goes, rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the blind obedience of fools.


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2018, 1:13 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If Oxford City Nomads are absolutely not in any way whatsoever the same club as Oxford City, why don't they play in the FA Cup?


I don't know if anyone's ever said they're absolutely not in any way whatsoever the same club but, if they're not eligible for the FA Cup, I dare say the answer lies in the competition regulations. My hunch is it'll be along the lines of why Ilkeston (now step 5) apparently aren't allowed in the FA Cup because of their owner's relationship with Notts County.


Geoff
First Team Sub

Jun 8, 2018, 7:28 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

With players able to register with two different clubs is it possible for clubs who want their reserves to play at a reasonable level within the pyramid to agree to register all their players with a completely different club in the next town and allow those not required for first team duty to play for that team on a regular basis?


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Jun 8, 2018, 11:16 PM

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Post #23 of 39 (6106 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
If Oxford City Nomads are absolutely not in any way whatsoever the same club as Oxford City, why don't they play in the FA Cup?


I don't know if anyone's ever said they're absolutely not in any way whatsoever the same club but, if they're not eligible for the FA Cup, I dare say the answer lies in the competition regulations. My hunch is it'll be along the lines of why Ilkeston (now step 5) apparently aren't allowed in the FA Cup because of their owner's relationship with Notts County.


Just delved a little more into this. The FA Cup rules (http://www.thefa.com/...rules-2017-2018.ashx, section 24) explains dual interests and associations with other clubs, together with the restrictions on clubs entering the competition in such cases. This'll presumably be what snookers Ilkeston and OCN.

The NLS Regulations, as already mentioned, talk about reserve teams being restricted to step 6 or, if currently at step 5, being allowed to stay there until relegated. I can't see that the Regs define reserve teams, other than referring to "Reserve teams, including a team from a club or Club which is not considered by the LC to be sufficiently separate from another club or Club, will not be permitted to compete above Step 6 in the NLS" etc.

So the question is what do the LC consider to be "sufficiently separate"? Do they follow the same criteria that the FA use for entry into the FA Cup, or do they use something different?


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 8, 2018, 11:21 PM)


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 9, 2018, 2:02 AM

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Post #24 of 39 (6000 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is of course something that rarely happens.
There are only 3/4 of these are they reserves or not situations.
So it falls under the discretion of the LC.
So no real criteria is ever put in place.


Richard Rundle
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Jun 9, 2018, 5:55 AM

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Re: [Unicorn] Regulations 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I still don't see much of a problem with reserve or similar teams moving up through the pyramid if they get there on merit (i.e. not plonked in Step 5 by whim of the FALC). I probably watch more games involving reserves/lower teams than not these days and I can't think of one instance of it being a problem.

Let's throw this out there. Suppose Truro City want to re-start their reserve team, and use it for developing players for their Conference South team. Where should they aim for in the pyramid? Playing Step 7 isn't going to prepare players for Step 2 football very well, is it?

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