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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Yatesman
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Mar 8, 2018, 8:44 PM

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Post #551 of 796 (830 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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If this Gov't delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit you can judge them at the next GE. That 's called civilised democracy.


If this Govt delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit, we stop it from happening for the good of the UK.

Waiting to throw out the useless Tories is far too late.


I disagree. The good of the UK is served by Leaving the EU as per the mandate delivered in the referendum.

The Tories may or may not be useless but they won the GE.

You just have to be patient.....


And if we wish to change our mind before it is too late then we should be able to. How can anyone who claims to be a democrat disagree with that?

The Tories may have won most seats but they didnít win a majority. They had to bribe the DUP to maintain power.


We will go around in circles with this because I would say that as a democrat you will support the Gov't to deliver that which the majority of the electorate voted for in the 2016 referendum.
That has to be done first , before any other plebiscite is considered.
If Parliament rejects the deal that is on the table, then we leave with no deal, so don't think that is a viable option.

Look, I understand you don't want to Leave the EU but it is inevitable. Trying to change that on a technicality ( i.e a vote in Parliament) or by some other underhanded scheme will set of a chain of events possibly far worse than your imagined Brexit losses.

As for the DUP. They are the legal, duly elected representatives of their constituencies. Seeing as a lot of Governments in the glorious EU are coalitions ( Germany and Italy the two most recent) I fail to understand why you struggle with that arrangement.


PaulC
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:01 PM

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Post #552 of 796 (819 views)
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Re: [Towlawtom] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It was the Sun wot won it.

Leave vote by newspaper readership

Sun 70%
Express 70%
Mail 66%
Star 65%

The right wing press and their right wing owners certainly know how to get the less sophisticated to vote against their own interests.

Of course, this doesnít just apply to Brexit. There arenít enough people who benefit from Tory policies to elect the Tories - so their scum press has to convince the less sophisticated to vote Tory, against their own interests. This is done, of course, by villifying the Labour party and its leaders with a whole raft of lies which the less sophisticated swallow hook, line and sinker.

They say a nation gets the press it deserves but quite why the UK gets the most unethical right wing press in the world, Iím not quite sure.


PaulC
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:07 PM

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Post #553 of 796 (812 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If this Gov't delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit you can judge them at the next GE. That 's called civilised democracy.


If this Govt delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit, we stop it from happening for the good of the UK.

Waiting to throw out the useless Tories is far too late.


I disagree. The good of the UK is served by Leaving the EU as per the mandate delivered in the referendum.

The Tories may or may not be useless but they won the GE.

You just have to be patient.....


And if we wish to change our mind before it is too late then we should be able to. How can anyone who claims to be a democrat disagree with that?

The Tories may have won most seats but they didnít win a majority. They had to bribe the DUP to maintain power.


We will go around in circles with this because I would say that as a democrat you will support the Gov't to deliver that which the majority of the electorate voted for in the 2016 referendum.
That has to be done first , before any other plebiscite is considered.
If Parliament rejects the deal that is on the table, then we leave with no deal, so don't think that is a viable option.

Look, I understand you don't want to Leave the EU but it is inevitable. Trying to change that on a technicality ( i.e a vote in Parliament) or by some other underhanded scheme will set of a chain of events possibly far worse than your imagined Brexit losses.

As for the DUP. They are the legal, duly elected representatives of their constituencies. Seeing as a lot of Governments in the glorious EU are coalitions ( Germany and Italy the two most recent) I fail to understand why you struggle with that arrangement.


So you are of the lemming school.

Because we set off in the direction of the cliff edge we should keep going even though we have belatedly realised our course of action is likely to be fatal. ďWe can reconsider when we get to the foot of the cliff.Ē

I was merely correcting you when you claimed the Tories won the election. They didnít. They only govern because they paid a massive bribe to the DUP.


paulh66
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:16 PM

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Post #554 of 796 (800 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Amongst all the stats you've dug up to feed your bitterness - what Leave voters read, how old they are, what their supposed intellect is etc - did you manage to come up with anything on their race? Or their sexuality? Or their religion, etc? They're no less relevant i.e. they're totally irrelevant. Apart from the fact that they're being used to sow divisiveness.... mostly, I dare say, amongst those who consider themselves 'progressive' and 'inclusive'.


Yatesman
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:19 PM

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Post #555 of 796 (796 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If this Gov't delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit you can judge them at the next GE. That 's called civilised democracy.


If this Govt delivers an unsatisfactory Brexit, we stop it from happening for the good of the UK.

Waiting to throw out the useless Tories is far too late.


I disagree. The good of the UK is served by Leaving the EU as per the mandate delivered in the referendum.

The Tories may or may not be useless but they won the GE.

You just have to be patient.....


And if we wish to change our mind before it is too late then we should be able to. How can anyone who claims to be a democrat disagree with that?

The Tories may have won most seats but they didnít win a majority. They had to bribe the DUP to maintain power.


We will go around in circles with this because I would say that as a democrat you will support the Gov't to deliver that which the majority of the electorate voted for in the 2016 referendum.
That has to be done first , before any other plebiscite is considered.
If Parliament rejects the deal that is on the table, then we leave with no deal, so don't think that is a viable option.

Look, I understand you don't want to Leave the EU but it is inevitable. Trying to change that on a technicality ( i.e a vote in Parliament) or by some other underhanded scheme will set of a chain of events possibly far worse than your imagined Brexit losses.

As for the DUP. They are the legal, duly elected representatives of their constituencies. Seeing as a lot of Governments in the glorious EU are coalitions ( Germany and Italy the two most recent) I fail to understand why you struggle with that arrangement.


So you are of the lemming school.

Because we set off in the direction of the cliff edge we should keep going even though we have belatedly realised our course of action is likely to be fatal. ďWe can reconsider when we get to the foot of the cliff.Ē

I was merely correcting you when you claimed the Tories won the election. They didnít. They only govern because they paid a massive bribe to the DUP.


We'll disagree about the cliff edge as I see us heading for the wide open plains of world trade after escaping the narrow gorge of the EU

Your deluded attitude to the GE is breathtaking. I obviously corrected you as it is the Tories who formed a Gov't and their coalition with the DUP is to be welcomed as it is a model well used in Europe. According to the Europeans it creates better Gov't. Are the Europeans wrong?


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Mar 8, 2018, 9:27 PM

Posts: 10134
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Post #556 of 796 (789 views)
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Re: [paulh66] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Amongst all the stats you've dug up to feed your bitterness - what Leave voters read, how old they are, what their supposed intellect is etc - did you manage to come up with anything on their race? Or their sexuality? Or their religion, etc? They're no less relevant i.e. they're totally irrelevant. Apart from the fact that they're being used to sow divisiveness.... mostly, I dare say, amongst those who consider themselves 'progressive' and 'inclusive'.


Sowing divisiveness. Thatís a good one coming from a Brexiteer.

I know Brexiteers arenít too keen on facts but why shouldnít we consider the nature and preferences of those who voted Remain and Leave? They are very far from irrelevant.

The vote was won narrowly by Leave, and when you examine the kind of newspapers read by the typical Leave voter you have to suspect that it was the lies of the tabloid anti-EU press which managed to swing it. Just as it tries to for the Tories in General Elections.


Yatesman
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:33 PM

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Post #557 of 796 (777 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It was the Sun wot won it.

Leave vote by newspaper readership

Sun 70%
Express 70%
Mail 66%
Star 65%

The right wing press and their right wing owners certainly know how to get the less sophisticated to vote against their own interests.

Of course, this doesnít just apply to Brexit. There arenít enough people who benefit from Tory policies to elect the Tories - so their scum press has to convince the less sophisticated to vote Tory, against their own interests. This is done, of course, by villifying the Labour party and its leaders with a whole raft of lies which the less sophisticated swallow hook, line and sinker.

They say a nation gets the press it deserves but quite why the UK gets the most unethical right wing press in the world, Iím not quite sure.


In Reply To

Total monthly circulation of the Sun and the Mail as of Jan 2018.......
Less than 3 million......For the whole month.
Sort of blows the idea they influenced 17 million voters right out the water.

Is the British press the most unethical and right wing in the world?

Can you prove that with evidence please ?


paulh66
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:33 PM

Posts: 16932
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Post #558 of 796 (777 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You'll have to show me where I said I'm a Brexiteer. More divisive, ill-informed prejudice, methinks....for a more rounded perspective, maybe try reading a different newspaper? Tongue


Yatesman
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:37 PM

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Post #559 of 796 (769 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Amongst all the stats you've dug up to feed your bitterness - what Leave voters read, how old they are, what their supposed intellect is etc - did you manage to come up with anything on their race? Or their sexuality? Or their religion, etc? They're no less relevant i.e. they're totally irrelevant. Apart from the fact that they're being used to sow divisiveness.... mostly, I dare say, amongst those who consider themselves 'progressive' and 'inclusive'.


Sowing divisiveness. Thatís a good one coming from a Brexiteer.

I know Brexiteers arenít too keen on facts but why shouldnít we consider the nature and preferences of those who voted Remain and Leave? They are very far from irrelevant.

The vote was won narrowly by Leave, and when you examine the kind of newspapers read by the typical Leave voter you have to suspect that it was the lies of the tabloid anti-EU press which managed to swing it. Just as it tries to for the Tories in General Elections.


I don't think 17 million voters were influenced by a couple of papers with a daily readership of about 60,000 each.

That's a red herring!


PaulC
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Mar 8, 2018, 9:49 PM

Posts: 10134
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Post #560 of 796 (757 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I don't think 17 million voters were influenced by a couple of papers with a daily readership of about 60,000 each.

That's a red herring!


What are you talking about? The figures you quoted are average daily circulations.

Sun 1.55m
Mail 1.34m
Express 0.36m

3.25m

Readership, of course, is considerably higher.

Leave majority 1.26m


Yatesman
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:40 PM

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Post #561 of 796 (717 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I don't think 17 million voters were influenced by a couple of papers with a daily readership of about 60,000 each.

That's a red herring!


What are you talking about? The figures you quoted are average daily circulations.

Sun 1.55m
Mail 1.34m
Express 0.36m

3.25m

Readership, of course, is considerably higher.

Leave majority 1.26m


Yes you're right. I misread the figures.

I'm of the opinion however, that readers gravitate to the newspaper that represent their views rather than get influenced by the paper's viewpoint.

For example A Communist will buy the Morning Star not the Daily Mail.

A Conservative will but the Daily Mail not The Morning Star.
Because those papers will promote the views they already hold.

So I contend that your idea that newspapers overly influence elections is false as the vast majority of voters know their own mind.

So still a red herring......


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Mar 8, 2018, 10:41 PM)


PaulC
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:44 PM

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Post #562 of 796 (710 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Brexiteers say the funniest things.

https://mobile.twitter.com/...888890626051/video/1


Ronsdog
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:47 PM

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Post #563 of 796 (705 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I don't think 17 million voters were influenced by a couple of papers with a daily readership of about 60,000 each.

That's a red herring!


What are you talking about? The figures you quoted are average daily circulations.

Sun 1.55m
Mail 1.34m
Express 0.36m

3.25m

Readership, of course, is considerably higher.

Leave majority 1.26m



More biased nonsense from Paul C as the article below confirms....


https://medium.com/...ir-news-8e850a0dea03


steve walker
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:47 PM

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Post #564 of 796 (704 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Please guys lets keep to the topic and leave the personal insults. Quite frankly if you need to use words like 'deluded' or phrases like 'supposed intellect' when referring to other posters or voters then you are losing the argument and would be better keeping quiet.
I don't know how many times I need to say this... discuss the contents of a post and not the person posting it. It's a good thread... don't spoil it... Thanks


paulh66
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Mar 8, 2018, 11:30 PM

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Post #565 of 796 (653 views)
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Re: [steve walker] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You've completely misinterpreted the 'supposed intellect' comment - have another read! Wink

The point, which you've also hit on from a different angle, is the sheer divisiveness this referendum - and its consequences - has affected on the country. From both sides. Going forward, we badly need a unifying leader/government with gravitas and a clear sense of direction but frankly, looking at all the possibilities, I can't see where that'll come from - the current regime's record speaks for itself and the Corbyn love-in, even if it does bring him to No 10, will always polarise opinion. No wonder Blair still fancies his chances (but he won't be the answer either)! Troubling times.


Yatesman
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Mar 9, 2018, 6:14 AM

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Post #566 of 796 (560 views)
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Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Brexiteers say the funniest things.

https://mobile.twitter.com/...888890626051/video/1


I think that Panorama programme highlighted the puerile attitude of the BBC towards the issue.

The issue of immigration is extremely complicated and the way the programme 'investigated' attitudes to immigration shows how out of touch the BBC are with people and how determined they are to force their world view down our throats. I turned the programme off after these opening scenes as I couldn't stomach Nick Robinson's superscillious attitude.
People want immigration controlled and regulated so that there isn't a free for all as at present and so we know who comes here, why they are coming here and for how long.

Very few people want a complete ban on immigration and to suggest so is disingenuous.


007Dale
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Mar 9, 2018, 8:30 AM

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Post #567 of 796 (540 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The debate can rage but two things we know with strong confidence:
1. We will leave the EU
2. There will not be a second referendum.

How do we know this? Because neither Labour or Conservatives / DUP are proposing that we a) have a second referendum or b) don't leave.

As a democracy, we have had the opportunity to vote for pro-EU parties and have chosen against it (GE17).

As and when there is enough public support for pro-EU parties, then absolutely we should look at a vote to return. This is unlikely now before we leave, but could happen during transition.

The remain side had two bites of the cherry (ref16, GE17) and lost both times. The issue is therefore resolved until at least the next general election.


steveking
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Mar 9, 2018, 10:14 AM

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Post #568 of 796 (507 views)
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Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The debate can rage but two things we know with strong confidence:
1. We will leave the EU
2. There will not be a second referendum.

How do we know this? Because neither Labour or Conservatives / DUP are proposing that we a) have a second referendum or b) don't leave.

As a democracy, we have had the opportunity to vote for pro-EU parties and have chosen against it (GE17).

As and when there is enough public support for pro-EU parties, then absolutely we should look at a vote to return. This is unlikely now before we leave, but could happen during transition.

The remain side had two bites of the cherry (ref16, GE17) and lost both times. The issue is therefore resolved until at least the next general election.

A lot of people keep saying that too few people voted for a pro-remain/2nd referendum option in the 2017 general election but I for one didn't vote on that issue. My main aim, as always at a general election, is to keep the Tories out so if I voted labour it was on that basis not because I was necessarily pro-brexit.


HantsLondoner
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Mar 9, 2018, 11:01 AM

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Post #569 of 796 (484 views)
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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the Tories made it pretty clear that they were the party of Brexit in the 2017 GE.

How much that contributed to their much-reduced majority, or whether it was May's campaign, or the job that the government was doing generally, is hard to tell. Probably a mixture of all three.

Labour were pretty silent on Brexit at the time, and for a long time afterwards, because of their ambiguous stance on the issue.

Which begs the question - what did the 48% Remainers vote?
I opened a thread a few weeks ago asking whether these was scope for a third party, presumably politically between Tories/Labour, with a Remain agenda. I voted for one of the few of those available to me, I happened to agree with most of their policies too as well as their stance on Europe).

Hardly anybody posted on that thread, which may show a lack of appetite for the concept. The political parties that may have fitted the bill didn't do much better than usual, certainly in England - so I'll ask the question again - WHY?
I'd have thought such a party with charismatic leadership (think Blair or Clegg without the toxicity - if you can) would have cleaned up, if the majority are to be believed here.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Mar 9, 2018, 11:07 AM)


steveking
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Mar 9, 2018, 12:42 PM

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Post #570 of 796 (446 views)
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I think the Tories made it pretty clear that they were the party of Brexit in the 2017 GE.

How much that contributed to their much-reduced majority, or whether it was May's campaign, or the job that the government was doing generally, is hard to tell. Probably a mixture of all three.

Labour were pretty silent on Brexit at the time, and for a long time afterwards, because of their ambiguous stance on the issue.

Which begs the question - what did the 48% Remainers vote?

We don't know of course but to suggest as some do that only 7% (or whatever the LibDem share of the vote was) voted against Brexit is clearly stretching things to the limit.


In Reply To
I opened a thread a few weeks ago asking whether these was scope for a third party, presumably politically between Tories/Labour, with a Remain agenda. I voted for one of the few of those available to me, I happened to agree with most of their policies too as well as their stance on Europe).

Hardly anybody posted on that thread, which may show a lack of appetite for the concept. The political parties that may have fitted the bill didn't do much better than usual, certainly in England - so I'll ask the question again - WHY?
I'd have thought such a party with charismatic leadership (think Blair or Clegg without the toxicity - if you can) would have cleaned up, if the majority are to be believed here.

Maybe some people aren't inspired by the idea of being middle of the road. On the other hand we know that many will say one thing in all honesty to a pollster but not be able to follow that up with a cross on the ballot form which was perhaps close to what you were asking for.


HantsLondoner
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Mar 9, 2018, 12:56 PM

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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

'Maybe some people aren't inspired by the idea of being middle of the road'.

Agree with that, but at the moment, as has been mentioned before, both left and right are perceived by some as being more polarised then usual (as evidenced by the strength of some of the feelings in this thread).

So a centrist-type party should, at the moment, be able to accommodate moderate Labour as well as moderate Conservatives.

As well as the Lib Dems, there were also of course the Greens, who IMO do happen to have a charismatic leader, but arguably not much to back her up.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.


steveking
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Mar 9, 2018, 1:08 PM

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Post #572 of 796 (420 views)
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Re: [HantsLondoner] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry, I forgot about the Greens.

For the record in 2017 and for the first time ever I didn't vote Labour but LibDem to ensure the Tories didn't win in Surbiton. As it turned out Ed Davey didn't need my help. My point is that I voted on party lines with no real account of Brexit. As no party had formulated any kind of strong policy on Brexit it seemed a pretty irrelevant issue but people keep saying that the result was an overwhelming acceptance of Brexit. As far as I am concerned that is far from the case.


HantsLondoner
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Mar 9, 2018, 1:13 PM

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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Agree.

Same situation for me in the 2017 GE except that the Tories were always going to win where I was, and I absolutely won't vote Lib Dem again until they are totally purged of Clegg.

So the Greens were the next best thing as far as I was concerned - IMO better than they used to be.



If you're going to/been to a Hampshire Premier League match, I'd really appreciate you filling in a questionnaire - available in the Groundhopping/General section, or just PM me for a copy. Thanks.

(This post was edited by HantsLondoner on Mar 9, 2018, 1:52 PM)


007Dale
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Mar 9, 2018, 1:17 PM

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Post #574 of 796 (408 views)
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Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Sorry, I forgot about the Greens.

For the record in 2017 and for the first time ever I didn't vote Labour but LibDem to ensure the Tories didn't win in Surbiton. As it turned out Ed Davey didn't need my help. My point is that I voted on party lines with no real account of Brexit. As no party had formulated any kind of strong policy on Brexit it seemed a pretty irrelevant issue but people keep saying that the result was an overwhelming acceptance of Brexit. As far as I am concerned that is far from the case.


That's actually incorrect. The Lib Dems campaigned heavily on being pro-remain. They gained 4 seats (net).


steveking
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Mar 9, 2018, 1:41 PM

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Post #575 of 796 (395 views)
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In Reply To
Sorry, I forgot about the Greens.

For the record in 2017 and for the first time ever I didn't vote Labour but LibDem to ensure the Tories didn't win in Surbiton. As it turned out Ed Davey didn't need my help. My point is that I voted on party lines with no real account of Brexit. As no party had formulated any kind of strong policy on Brexit it seemed a pretty irrelevant issue but people keep saying that the result was an overwhelming acceptance of Brexit. As far as I am concerned that is far from the case.


That's actually incorrect. The Lib Dems campaigned heavily on being pro-remain. They gained 4 seats (net).

Not sure what you're saying is incorrect. Whatever share the LibDems got is, in my argument, fairly irrelevant to Brexit. To me that wasn't a big issue in the election.

I have accepted the referendum result but want to be sure that any exit is a good one. At the time of the election we had no idea what kind of exit we were going to have (and we still don't) so voting with Brexit in mind was in my opinion pointless.

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