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Home: All Other Football Interests: Football in other countries:
Jersey UEFA bid rejected

 



007Dale
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Feb 26, 2018, 2:41 PM

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Jersey UEFA bid rejected Can't Post or Reply Privately

Jersey's bid to join UEFA has been rejected, with 49 of the 55 members voting against.

Personally I think this is the correct decision, the last thing we need is more minnows filling up the qualifying groups.

Gibraltar and the Faroe Islands having applied before the 'independence' rule was introduced.


cope1
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Feb 26, 2018, 7:44 PM

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Re: [007Dale] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree. Next we'll have Yarkshrrr on the boat!


knmeynell
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Feb 27, 2018, 6:36 AM

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Post #3 of 12 (1545 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Jersey's bid to join UEFA has been rejected, with 49 of the 55 members voting against.

Personally I think this is the correct decision, the last thing we need is more minnows filling up the qualifying groups.

Gibraltar and the Faroe Islands having applied before the 'independence' rule was introduced.


Personally I don't think it's the correct decision.

The minnows filling up qualifying groups is one issue, but it's complete nonsense to recognise some dependencies yet not others. Either all of them should be permitted, or none of them.

And would Jersey be any weaker than some of the sovereign states that compete in international football?


007Dale
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Feb 27, 2018, 7:37 AM

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Re: [knmeynell] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Jersey's bid to join UEFA has been rejected, with 49 of the 55 members voting against.

Personally I think this is the correct decision, the last thing we need is more minnows filling up the qualifying groups.

Gibraltar and the Faroe Islands having applied before the 'independence' rule was introduced.


Personally I don't think it's the correct decision.

The minnows filling up qualifying groups is one issue, but it's complete nonsense to recognise some dependencies yet not others. Either all of them should be permitted, or none of them.

And would Jersey be any weaker than some of the sovereign states that compete in international football?


Would you be of the same opinion if Northern Cyprus applied or perhaps Eastern Ukraine? The main reason why non-independent nations were banned was because of the political difficulties they often bring. OK, Jersey don't have those issues, but a line has been drawn and if they were admitted, it would open the flood gates.

It's telling that England voted against them joining.


knmeynell
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Feb 27, 2018, 7:52 AM

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Re: [007Dale] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Would you be of the same opinion if Northern Cyprus applied or perhaps Eastern Ukraine? The main reason why non-independent nations were banned was because of the political difficulties they often bring.


Northern Cyprus and Eastern Ukraine are not internationally recognised territories, whereas Jersey is, along with Gibraltar, the Faroe Islands and numerous other dependencies.

Any territory on the ISO 3166-1 list is by definition recognised by the United Nations (regardless of UN membership), so there shouldn't be any political difficulties at all with admitting any territory on that list to international competition.

The ban on non-independent nations was rooted in Spain's attempt to prevent Gibraltar being recognised. Really quite disgraceful, and if England voted against the recognition of Jersey than that's even more shameful. And if we're going to apply the rules to the letter, then how did Kosovo get into UEFA?

The issue of weak teams cluttering up the playing schedules is another matter, but there's plenty of very weak independent countries playing football that have little hope of being competitive.

At the end of the day, there should probably be some sort of pre-qualification for such teams, but recognition should be applied fairly and consistently regardless of consideration for playing standards.


(This post was edited by knmeynell on Feb 27, 2018, 8:21 AM)


cope1
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Mar 3, 2018, 6:04 PM

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Post #6 of 12 (1307 views)
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Re: [knmeynell] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Northern Cyprus is recognised by Turkey. The problem it has is that its not recognised by anyone else (although Russia have a tendency to recognise otherwise unpopular breakaway states, mainly because they've funded them, so maybe they do).

Who recognises Jersey as an independent nation? I count it but that's only so I can increase my country tick count. I have a friend from Jersey who laughs at the idea of Jersey being a separate nation. He views it more like a remote county. He deducts it from my list whenevwr we compare notes.

There is no official list of recognised nations. It's a case of which list you choose - UN, FIFA, World Bank, etc. Under such circumstances the only proper thing to do is let each body decide for itself.

I don't think Gibraltar has any place in international football but presumably once you're in you're in. Jersey missed the boat. As islanders they should have known better ;)


knmeynell
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Mar 3, 2018, 9:51 PM

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Re: [cope1] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Northern Cyprus is recognised by Turkey. The problem it has is that its not recognised by anyone else (although Russia have a tendency to recognise otherwise unpopular breakaway states, mainly because they've funded them, so maybe they do).

Who recognises Jersey as an independent nation? I count it but that's only so I can increase my country tick count. I have a friend from Jersey who laughs at the idea of Jersey being a separate nation. He views it more like a remote county. He deducts it from my list whenevwr we compare notes.

There is no official list of recognised nations. It's a case of which list you choose - UN, FIFA, World Bank, etc. Under such circumstances the only proper thing to do is let each body decide for itself.

I don't think Gibraltar has any place in international football but presumably once you're in you're in. Jersey missed the boat. As islanders they should have known better ;)


No-one is claiming that Jersey is an independent country - not even they are. It's a dependency that is widely, if not universally recognised by the international community.

There are numerous dependencies that are already members of FIFA and the Continental Federations - some substantially predating the existence of a number of independent countries. Jersey has a status that's no different whatsoever.

Yes, there are odd breakaway territories like Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia, but they're invariably only recognised by a single sponsor state. They're not recognised by any international body, far less the UN, and therefore have no case for being in international football.

I don't honestly think Jersey would add much to international football, but I think acceptance of membership needs to be consistently applied and not based on rules changed because of political motivations.


(This post was edited by knmeynell on Mar 4, 2018, 2:10 AM)


knmeynell
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Mar 4, 2018, 4:51 AM

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Post #8 of 12 (1199 views)
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Re: [knmeynell] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Northern Cyprus is recognised by Turkey. The problem it has is that its not recognised by anyone else (although Russia have a tendency to recognise otherwise unpopular breakaway states, mainly because they've funded them, so maybe they do).

Who recognises Jersey as an independent nation? I count it but that's only so I can increase my country tick count. I have a friend from Jersey who laughs at the idea of Jersey being a separate nation. He views it more like a remote county. He deducts it from my list whenevwr we compare notes.

There is no official list of recognised nations. It's a case of which list you choose - UN, FIFA, World Bank, etc. Under such circumstances the only proper thing to do is let each body decide for itself.

I don't think Gibraltar has any place in international football but presumably once you're in you're in. Jersey missed the boat. As islanders they should have known better ;)


No-one is claiming that Jersey is an independent country - not even they are. It's a dependency that is widely, if not universally recognised by the international community.

There are numerous dependencies that are already members of FIFA and the Continental Federations - some substantially predating the existence of a number of independent countries. Jersey has a status that's no different whatsoever.

Yes, there are odd breakaway territories like Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia, but they're invariably only recognised by a single sponsor state. They're not recognised by any international body, far less the UN, and therefore have no case for being in international football.

ISO 3166-1 is the closest thing to an official list of countries and territories because it's endorsed by the UN, regardless of UN membership.

I don't honestly think Jersey would add much to international football, but I think acceptance of membership needs to be consistently applied and not based on rules changed because of political motivations.

If you don't think Gibraltar has a place in international football then neither does the Faroes, Hong Kong, Macau, Anguilla, Aruba, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, the US Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Curacao, Montserrat, Turks & Caicos, American Samoa, Cook Islands and New Caledonia - all of which have played in the World Cup (some for many years).

The status of Palestine, Kosovo and Taiwan could also be questioned, as they're either not independent or not universally recognised to be so.


(This post was edited by knmeynell on Mar 4, 2018, 4:59 AM)


007Dale
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Mar 4, 2018, 6:30 AM

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Post #9 of 12 (1187 views)
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Re: [knmeynell] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There is no list that makes sense to use beyond those internationally recognised as independent. Yes it's inconsistent that some territories were previously admitted, but you can't very well throw them out.

Using your suggested list includes a completely uninhabited territory of Bouvet Island (currently part of Norway and although not in UEFA's territory, presumably able to join one of the confederations and FIFA if using your definition). Or perhaps the French Southern Lands with winter population of 150? Maybe Svalbard's UEFA application will be warmly received?

This list is also not without potential controversy, can you imagine the issues if The Falkland Islands wanted to join the South American confederation?

Furthermore do UEFA really want to open themselves up to another bunch of pointless teams (probably quite literally in qualification tables):
Aland
Jersey
Guernsey
Isle of Man

One final complication of using IS 3166-1 is that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not separately listed on it. Can't see that being popular in the regions!

There is controversy pretty much anywhere you go with it. I understand the confederations changing the rules to avoid any more issues and not filing their ranks with uncompetitive teams.


knmeynell
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Mar 4, 2018, 7:05 AM

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Post #10 of 12 (1181 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
There is no list that makes sense to use beyond those internationally recognised as independent.


Kosovo, Palestine and Taiwan? Would you be happy if the Vatican City decided to enter a team of clerics though, as that's internationally recognised as independent?


In Reply To
Using your suggested list includes a completely uninhabited territory of Bouvet Island (currently part of Norway and although not in UEFA's territory, presumably able to join one of the confederations and FIFA if using your definition). Or perhaps the French Southern Lands with winter population of 150? Maybe Svalbard's UEFA application will be warmly received?


It would be very easy to add the qualification that the territory has to have regular and organised football competition, and possibly even a minimum number of players. I think there's already a requirement about (grass) pitches, hence why Greenland was also refused membership despite having a similar status to the Faroes within the Kingdom of Denmark.


In Reply To
This list is also not without potential controversy, can you imagine the issues if The Falkland Islands wanted to join the South American confederation?


I think it's irrelevant whether it's controversial or not, if a territory has a similar status to other dependencies already accepted. Kosovo was accepted despite being opposed by Serbia, Armenia and Azerbaijan won't play each other, and Israel had to be placed in Europe due to a boycott from Asian nations. I'm sure there's many other examples in world football.

I think it would be exceeding difficult for the Falklands to be accepted in CONMEBOL given the sway held by Argentina in that confederation, but it would not be beyond the realms of impossibility for them to play in CONCACAF.

The remoteness and very small population of the Falklands make it very unlikely they'd seek membership anyway.


In Reply To
Furthermore do UEFA really want to open themselves up to another bunch of pointless teams (probably quite literally in qualification tables):
Aland
Jersey
Guernsey
Isle of Man


The independent nations of Malta, Andorra, Liechtenstein and San Marino have hardly set the competition alight down the years, and ironically the dependency of the Faroes currently outranks all of them.

You can easily solve the pointless teams issue with some sort of pre-qualification (e.g. through the UEFA Nations League), but you should be consistent about the criteria.


In Reply To
One final complication of using IS 3166-1 is that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not separately listed on it. Can't see that being popular in the regions!


They're not independent nations either, but it's irrelevant because it's long established they have a special status by virtue of being the first national teams, and founders of the IFAB. It's written into the FIFA Statutes.


(This post was edited by knmeynell on Mar 4, 2018, 7:07 AM)


007Dale
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Mar 4, 2018, 8:52 AM

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Re: [knmeynell] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's an interesting debate.

I can't see how you'd get Andorra et al to agree to admit these territories and have to give up access to playing the big nations. I think we agree it's not appropriate to have more poor footballing nations clogging up qualifying groups, therefore to admit these four would require pre-qualifying. The countries already in UEFA would never agree to it.

Personally I think the Nations League is a step in the right direction. As international football become ever more irrelevant in the face of the domestic game, we need better quality games.

I guess you realise the irony of arguing the home nations are allowed to enter for historical reasons, whilst also arguing it's inconsistent to allow Faroes for historical reasons (i.e. They applied before the rule change).

I personally wouldn't have admitted Gibraltar and whilst we might not like how the Spanish tried to stop them for political reasons, the fact of the matter is, these territories (like Falklands) can create political troubles.

Palestine and Taiwan were accepted before FIFA rule changes. Not sure if Kosovo applied before or after the rule change, but they are recognised as independent by a large part of the world, even if not members of UN. They are even a candidate to join the EU.

If Monaco or Vatican had a footballing set up, met the criteria and wanted to join UEFA, then of course, they would be admitted, although I think it's doubtful they would want to.


knmeynell
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Mar 4, 2018, 11:10 AM

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Post #12 of 12 (1127 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Jersey UEFA bid rejected [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Personally I think the Nations League is a step in the right direction. As international football become ever more irrelevant in the face of the domestic game, we need better quality games.


The Nations League could played in a staggered format like the various division of World Cricket League, with the minnows playing in their own division whilst the World/European qualifiers are ongoing. They'd still have a full programme of fixtures and potential path to qualifying, but you wouldn't get complete mismatches.


In Reply To
I guess you realise the irony of arguing the home nations are allowed to enter for historical reasons, whilst also arguing it's inconsistent to allow Faroes for historical reasons (i.e. They applied before the rule change).


I think grandfathering-in is a cop-out. Gibraltar's attempted blocking was politically motivated by Spain and its allies, and Greenland, Sint Maarten and now Jersey have unfortunately got caught up in the consequences of that.

I'm fairly sure Kosovo also applied after the UEFA rule change, so there's not consistency there.

With respect to the UK home nations, I think most would agree they're a unique and special case which is enshrined in the FIFA statutes.

 
 


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