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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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PaulC
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Feb 13, 2018, 4:36 PM

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Post #1751 of 1988 (7183 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cut out a cardboard shape to represent England.

Stick a pin somewhere in the north and let it hang. Draw a vertical line from the pin point. Stick a pin somewhure in the south and repeat.

Where the lines intersect is the centre of gravity.


Winston1963
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Feb 17, 2018, 1:22 PM

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Post #1752 of 1988 (5898 views)
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Re: [PaulC] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don’t like the idea of the answer in the NLP last week about promotion into step 2 under the new structure. “Step 3 to step 2 will be managed with a ‘super play-off’ system. “ So it won’t be 4 down from each of the National League North and South and two up from each of the step 3 leagues, then. I bet when they have 8 step 4 leagues, the step 3 leagues have to relegate 4. A 1-2-4-8 system should have equal promotion and relegation at all steps.


ladderman
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Feb 18, 2018, 5:39 PM

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Post #1753 of 1988 (5322 views)
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Re: [swjoduk] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Why get so defensive?

When anything like this is released, whether it's from the FA, UEFA, FIFA, UK Government its always best to have a logo etc on it.

Things don't look official otherwise

I'm still waiting for that groveling apology


ladderman
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Feb 18, 2018, 5:40 PM

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Post #1754 of 1988 (5320 views)
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Re: [Winston1963] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Don't worry. According to swjoduk I made it all up


windydcfc
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Feb 20, 2018, 8:53 AM

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Post #1755 of 1988 (4806 views)
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Re: [ladderman] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Mike Amos has posted about the EBAC NL’s appeal to the F.A. on his blog today https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


northstandexile
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Feb 20, 2018, 9:32 AM

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Post #1756 of 1988 (4775 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Every season we have clubs complaining that they have been placed in the 'wrong' league.

Surely we can have a system where fixed boundaries of leagues are established.

Looks very likely that the FA want a 1-2-4-8-16 system.

So why can't clubs at each step say which league they want to play in.

Step2 - north or south
Step3 - north, midland, south west, south east.
Step4 - north east, north west, West Midlands, East Midlands , south West , London west, London north, London south.
Step5. This is where it gets interesting, but I would base the leagues on a geographically hub close to a major road.

So for example each club in the land would choose which league they would want to play in based on these 16 hubs namely

Exeter
Bristol
Southampton
Reading
Maidstone
Wimbledon
Watford
Chelmsford
Peterborough
Nottingham
Coventry
Wolverhampton
Warrington
Preston
Barnsley
Darlington.

I will let other folk name these 16 leagues.

Surely this would cut travelling down considerably as this seems the major issue which clubs seem to be complaining about.

So, what is wrong, and I can hear you saying - uneven numbers in leagues comes the reply. Why is that wrong? Provided that the fixtures are arranged to provide the 30 or 40 odd matches in a league season and different amount of promotion and relegation places agreed before the start of the season. Surely the double round robin of home and away once is not imperative to our game. Split season fixtures happen in many countries around the world. You could even have more than one section in a hub if there are too many teams wanting to play in one hub

I am sure this has got to be the way forward.


(This post was edited by northstandexile on Feb 20, 2018, 9:34 AM)


Part-Timer
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Feb 21, 2018, 10:38 AM

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Post #1757 of 1988 (4283 views)
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Re: [Winston1963] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A 1-2-4-8 system should have equal promotion and relegation at all steps.

Why? It doesn't happen in the Football League.


Terrierdave
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Feb 21, 2018, 10:51 AM

Posts: 343
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Post #1758 of 1988 (4261 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Mike Amos has posted about the EBAC NL’s appeal to the F.A. on his blog today https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Does anyone know what time the appeal is being held? Is the substance of the proposal that the NL runs a new 8th Step 4 division, but that perhaps it doesn't cover the area that the FA would expect?


Dazzla84
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Feb 21, 2018, 11:09 AM

Posts: 378
Location: South Shields
Team(s): Newcastle United, South Shields, Werder Bremen, Toulouse

Post #1759 of 1988 (4243 views)
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Re: [Terrierdave] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Mike Amos has posted about the EBAC NL’s appeal to the F.A. on his blog today https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Does anyone know what time the appeal is being held? Is the substance of the proposal that the NL runs a new 8th Step 4 division, but that perhaps it doesn't cover the area that the FA would expect?


Reading that blog entry (February 19th) heres what I gather from it

1. The appeal is being heard TODAY (February 21st)
2. The Northern League want to run this new Step 4 division
3. No mention of a new geographical footprint for the league
4. Word that it will be a "much diminished competition" if the NL doesnt get what it wants.

Honestly, no offence to the Northern League but after nearly 40 years of knockbacks and clubs refusing promotion for whatever reason, I cannot see the FA even come close to agreeing to this.

Overall I still think the crux is that the 8th Step 4 League will cover the North East, Cumbria and northern Yorkshire footprint but the NL want to administer it whereas the FA would prefer it to be organised by the NPL.


(This post was edited by Dazzla84 on Feb 21, 2018, 11:11 AM)


Terrierdave
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Feb 21, 2018, 11:13 AM

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Post #1760 of 1988 (4238 views)
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Re: [Dazzla84] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Reading that blog entry (February 19th) heres what I gather from it

1. The appeal is being heard TODAY (February 21st)
2. The Northern League want to run this new Step 4 division
3. No mention of a new geographical footprint for the league
4. Word that it will be a "much diminished competition" if the NL doesnt get what it wants.

Honestly, no offence to the Northern League but after nearly 40 years of knockbacks and clubs refusing promotion for whatever reason, I cannot see the FA even come close to agreeing to this.

Overall I still think the crux is that the 8th Step 4 League will cover the North East, Cumbria and northern Yorkshire footprint but the NL want to administer it whereas the FA would prefer it to be organised by the NPL.


Yes I know it is today, just wondered what time. I'd read the blog which doesn't really expand on anything.

As I understood it, the FA invited the NL to submit the proposal in the first place, then knocked it back? Please correct me if I am wrong about that.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 21, 2018, 11:26 AM

Posts: 9549
Location: Lincoln
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #1761 of 1988 (4218 views)
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Re: [Terrierdave] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Reading that blog entry (February 19th) heres what I gather from it

1. The appeal is being heard TODAY (February 21st)
2. The Northern League want to run this new Step 4 division
3. No mention of a new geographical footprint for the league
4. Word that it will be a "much diminished competition" if the NL doesnt get what it wants.

Honestly, no offence to the Northern League but after nearly 40 years of knockbacks and clubs refusing promotion for whatever reason, I cannot see the FA even come close to agreeing to this.

Overall I still think the crux is that the 8th Step 4 League will cover the North East, Cumbria and northern Yorkshire footprint but the NL want to administer it whereas the FA would prefer it to be organised by the NPL.


Yes I know it is today, just wondered what time. I'd read the blog which doesn't really expand on anything.

As I understood it, the FA invited the NL to submit the proposal in the first place, then knocked it back? Please correct me if I am wrong about that.



The F.A. asked them to consider a step 4 league at the meeting.
The EBAC NL at the end of the meeting, said they already had & offered up the proposal on the table. Which was rejected by the F.A.
I’m not sure what time the meeting is.


Dazzla84
Youth Team Star


Feb 21, 2018, 11:27 AM

Posts: 378
Location: South Shields
Team(s): Newcastle United, South Shields, Werder Bremen, Toulouse

Post #1762 of 1988 (4215 views)
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Re: [Terrierdave] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Reading that blog entry (February 19th) heres what I gather from it

1. The appeal is being heard TODAY (February 21st)
2. The Northern League want to run this new Step 4 division
3. No mention of a new geographical footprint for the league
4. Word that it will be a "much diminished competition" if the NL doesnt get what it wants.

Honestly, no offence to the Northern League but after nearly 40 years of knockbacks and clubs refusing promotion for whatever reason, I cannot see the FA even come close to agreeing to this.

Overall I still think the crux is that the 8th Step 4 League will cover the North East, Cumbria and northern Yorkshire footprint but the NL want to administer it whereas the FA would prefer it to be organised by the NPL.


Yes I know it is today, just wondered what time. I'd read the blog which doesn't really expand on anything.

As I understood it, the FA invited the NL to submit the proposal in the first place, then knocked it back? Please correct me if I am wrong about that.

I do think youre not wrong, but there must have been a part of the proposal the Northern League submitted that the FA did not agree with, hence it was knocked back, and the way Amos is talking about it in that blog post makes me believe the difference of opinion is who administers it.

As for the time, I have no idea exactly when its being heard, midday would be my guess.


Terrierdave
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Feb 21, 2018, 11:28 AM

Posts: 343
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Post #1763 of 1988 (4213 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cheers both!

I should have added - was this proposal to create the division in time for next season? or is 2019/20 was the target?


(This post was edited by Terrierdave on Feb 21, 2018, 11:30 AM)


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 22, 2018, 8:00 AM

Posts: 9549
Location: Lincoln
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Post #1764 of 1988 (3638 views)
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Re: [Terrierdave] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Digdagdog
First Team Sub


Feb 22, 2018, 8:10 AM

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Post #1765 of 1988 (3628 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Not happy is he?



2017-18 Games: 171 Goals: 745 GPG: 4.36 New Grounds: 114
2018-19 Games: 58 Goals: 222 GPG: 3.84 New Grounds: 33



Terrierdave
Youth Team Star

Feb 22, 2018, 8:36 AM

Posts: 343
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Post #1766 of 1988 (3604 views)
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Re: [Digdagdog] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Not happy is he?


I know Mike well, and have debated these issues over many years (differing opinions!). The issues predate his tenure as Chairman, had the NL been a supportive participant from the outset of the creation of the pyramid, then the League (and its constituent clubs) would be in a much healthier position than they are now.


(This post was edited by Terrierdave on Feb 22, 2018, 8:38 AM)


markust
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Feb 22, 2018, 9:37 AM

Posts: 259
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Post #1767 of 1988 (3522 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


From that I would say that the step 4 league will happen, but their powergrab has failed. At a guess it will go to a new league made of the 2 new divisions made this summer plus this extra one.


Dazzla84
Youth Team Star


Feb 22, 2018, 9:56 AM

Posts: 378
Location: South Shields
Team(s): Newcastle United, South Shields, Werder Bremen, Toulouse

Post #1768 of 1988 (3486 views)
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Re: [Terrierdave] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


Not happy is he?


I know Mike well, and have debated these issues over many years (differing opinions!). The issues predate his tenure as Chairman, had the NL been a supportive participant from the outset of the creation of the pyramid, then the League (and its constituent clubs) would be in a much healthier position than they are now.


Amos became chairman around 1996, a while after the NL were forced to become a feeder to the NPL, before then the previous committee(s) knocked back offers of pyramid progression multiple times, if history were different, its likely the Northern League would be in a similar position in the pyramid to the Isthmian/Bostik.

But its not just before Amos's tenure, even during his premiership, clubs still reluctantly took promotion up, only 6 in the last 22 years makes for pretty sad reading, now that can be down to decisions of the past but still, even clubs taking promotion during this time period would have benefited the pyramid significantly

The big one in my opinion was in the summer of 2004 when the Conference North & South were created, the Northern League promoted NO clubs with the NPL forced to transfer three from the Southern League and incorporate the reformed Telford United to make up the shortfall.

NORTHERN LEAGUE PROMOTEES SINCE 1996

1997: Whitby Town
2007: Newcastle Blue Star *
2008: Durham City **
2013: Darlington
2014: Spennymoor Town
2017: South Shields

* Folded in 2009
** Returned to Northern League in 2012
*** In that time, Whitley Bay and Bishop Auckland also returned to the NL from the NPL


(This post was edited by Dazzla84 on Feb 22, 2018, 10:09 AM)


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 22, 2018, 9:59 AM

Posts: 9549
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Post #1769 of 1988 (3481 views)
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Re: [markust] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


From that I would say that the step 4 league will happen, but their powergrab has failed. At a guess it will go to a new league made of the 2 new divisions made this summer plus this extra one.



I’ve got a feeling that the NL’s offer, was too little too late! I suspect there’s going to be a 2nd restructure in a couple of seasons. That’ll solve this issue & include the two new step 5 leagues.


Dazzla84
Youth Team Star


Feb 22, 2018, 10:04 AM

Posts: 378
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Post #1770 of 1988 (3473 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The F.A. has rejected the EBAC NL’s appeal, for the creation of another step 4 league & will release a reason why in the near future.
https://mikeamosblog.wordpress.com


From that I would say that the step 4 league will happen, but their powergrab has failed. At a guess it will go to a new league made of the 2 new divisions made this summer plus this extra one.



I’ve got a feeling that the NL’s offer, was too little too late! I suspect there’s going to be a 2nd restructure in a couple of seasons. That’ll solve this issue & include the two new step 5 leagues.


Well he says in his blog the FA will publish their reasoning in due course, it'll be interesting to see what they say


(This post was edited by Dazzla84 on Feb 22, 2018, 10:36 AM)


SWP-Phil
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Feb 22, 2018, 10:39 AM

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Post #1771 of 1988 (3414 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the weakness of the Northern Leagues proposal was that it really just pushed the compulsory promotion problem away for 1 year and 1 step - instead of this year at Step 5 clubs not always wanting to go up it would be next year at Step 4 that the same clubs would not always want to go up.
We faced a similar issue in my area, to push for Step 5, but then have the problem of mandatory promotion or to remain at Step 6 and keep a degree of self destiny for the clubs to decide themselves to go up or not.
The test of time here as to whether this is a good decision "For Football" as Mike claims - Is not whether the NL being Step 4 or Step 5 - the real test is will clubs be able, in a consistent and balanced way (on & off the pitch) to make a success of a promotion that becomes mandatory.
If the clubs that go up thrive then the FA can take some credit, and the Northern League will in turn have to accept that they were not as "right" as they imply they already are.
However if clubs go bust, ask to be relegated back down, manipulate ground gradings to be relegated back etc etc then the situation will not look as good for the FA stance.
Time will tell on that issue, and no matter how many posts and thread on this forum are written - it's time that will tell, and the FA will have to allow time to let any new structure "bed in".

On a sep. note this 1-2-4-8-16-32 thing - I do think this is getting less fixated upon, each individual area and set up, each set of clubs and gradings etc makes everything more variable.
I can see 1-2-4-8 but - at the expense of Windy blowing a gasket - 16 ? Nope - Won't happen.



_______________________________________________

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For all the News on the SW Peninsula League go to : www.swpleague.co.uk


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Feb 22, 2018, 10:59 AM

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Post #1772 of 1988 (3386 views)
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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

On a sep. note this 1-2-4-8-16-32 thing - I do think this is getting less fixated upon, each individual area and set up, each set of clubs and gradings etc makes everything more variable.
I can see 1-2-4-8 but - at the expense of Windy blowing a gasket - 16 ? Nope - Won't happen.



It is according to the interview between the F.A. & the Nonleague Paper. Something will change at step 5 & I’m sure nothing has been ruled in or out? I do accept your greater knowledge on this subject & will just wait & see how it eventually pans out.


frychip67
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Feb 22, 2018, 12:23 PM

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Post #1773 of 1988 (3303 views)
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Re: [northstandexile] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Every season we have clubs complaining that they have been placed in the 'wrong' league.

Surely we can have a system where fixed boundaries of leagues are established.

Looks very likely that the FA want a 1-2-4-8-16 system.

So why can't clubs at each step say which league they want to play in.

Step2 - north or south
Step3 - north, midland, south west, south east.
Step4 - north east, north west, West Midlands, East Midlands , south West , London west, London north, London south.
Step5. This is where it gets interesting, but I would base the leagues on a geographically hub close to a major road.

So for example each club in the land would choose which league they would want to play in based on these 16 hubs namely

Exeter
Bristol
Southampton
Reading
Maidstone
Wimbledon
Watford
Chelmsford
Peterborough
Nottingham
Coventry
Wolverhampton
Warrington
Preston
Barnsley
Darlington.

I will let other folk name these 16 leagues.

Surely this would cut travelling down considerably as this seems the major issue which clubs seem to be complaining about.

So, what is wrong, and I can hear you saying - uneven numbers in leagues comes the reply. Why is that wrong? Provided that the fixtures are arranged to provide the 30 or 40 odd matches in a league season and different amount of promotion and relegation places agreed before the start of the season. Surely the double round robin of home and away once is not imperative to our game. Split season fixtures happen in many countries around the world. You could even have more than one section in a hub if there are too many teams wanting to play in one hub

I am sure this has got to be the way forward.



In Germany, the fourth tier (Regionalliga) and below are in fixed regions with unequal numbers of teams as a result. They still all play each other home and away during the season. This would have much to recommend it in our Non-League pyramid. Promotion and relegation places could simply follow the German model (haven't looked up how they arrange it, sorry).

I believe English rugby union also places clubs in fixed regional leagues and that promotion and relegation places vary to suit.



FAKER #1129
Fish 4 Aisleyne


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Feb 22, 2018, 4:57 PM

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Post #1774 of 1988 (2995 views)
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Re: [frychip67] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
In Germany, the fourth tier (Regionalliga) and below are in fixed regions with unequal numbers of teams as a result. They still all play each other home and away during the season. This would have much to recommend it in our Non-League pyramid. Promotion and relegation places could simply follow the German model (haven't looked up how they arrange it, sorry).

I believe English rugby union also places clubs in fixed regional leagues and that promotion and relegation places vary to suit.


The German Leagues appear to show 'maximum' relegation/play-out positions in their Tables right from the start of the season. Then, if maximum numbers are not to be actually relegated; due to a dearth of teams descending from above; the final tables are accordingly adjusted to show reprieves for the thusly affected teams.

While I detest the 'fixed boundaries' model, this is the most humane method of dealing with its quirks & quiddities!



Professional cretin.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Feb 22, 2018, 4:57 PM

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Post #1775 of 1988 (2995 views)
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Re: [SWP-Phil] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 



On a sep. note this 1-2-4-8-16-32 thing - I do think this is getting less fixated upon, each individual area and set up, each set of clubs and gradings etc makes everything more variable.
I can see 1-2-4-8 but - at the expense of Windy blowing a gasket - 16 ? Nope - Won't happen.


O dear. Now i am totally confused.

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