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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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drblues
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Jan 12, 2018, 10:45 PM

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Post #1426 of 1565 (2683 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

The National League System is called that for a reason. Clubs are not forced to play in the NLS.


It's getting more and more ridiculous with every suggestion. Clubs should be able to find their own level that they can support, with the travelling and ground facilities that that level implies, and that their income and level of support can maintain. Forcing them upwards against their will is completely lacking in common sense.

Now, according to your proposal, a team that is lucky enough to get all its soldiers aligned and wins or comes second in a league will have two choices - go up to a level beyond their facilities, location, support and finance can support, or be dropped down to Step 6 where they will quite possibly win that, and what if they win Step 5 again and the whole merry-go-round starts all over again.

By all means include in your National League System the option for clubs of hard-working volunteers who WANT to go up the possibility to do so, but enough clubs are folding now without the FA positively dreaming up systems to accelerate their demise.

To finish with, you say clubs aren't forced to play in the NLS. What other options are there? Or do you expect clubs with Step 5 infrastructure to be happy playing pub sides on multi-pitch municipal sports fields? Perhaps it is time for the NLS to be stripped back to Steps 1 to 4, and take Steps 5, 6, & 7 out of the madness all together.


All interesting and some compelling points Richard. But clubs enter the NLS and sign up to the global rules. I think that there are enough clubs to take promotion willingly across Alliance Leagues and Steps 5 & 6. Step 7 is often another matter. The truth is that some clubs do not want to move out of their comfort zone and that is fine. Play at Step 7 to do that, but clogging the whole system at Step 5 by consistently refusing promotion is no longer the easy option

Clubs will always find their natural level and some will have their golden times with successive promotions, but everyone must have the opportunity to move up if they are good enough on and off the pitch. There will be those who will fear upwards moves and are happy where they are ( and sometimes struggle to stay where they are) and those who relish the idea of progression.

The question we should all be demanding the answer to is, how can Steps 3 to 7 attract much more funding through grants and filtering of money within football from the top? Making the NLS the best it can be is what we surely all want. Access to football created money for development for all clubs at this level is the goal. Community hubs and access for every player at whatever level and young age to coached football is an aspiration that must become reality.

The NLS is key to all of this and the idea of a proper football pyramid is impossible without promotion and relegation on an equitable basis.


(This post was edited by drblues on Jan 12, 2018, 11:05 PM)


leohoenig
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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All interesting and some compelling points Richard. But clubs enter the NLS and sign up to the global rules. I think that there are enough clubs to take promotion willingly across Alliance Leagues and Steps 5 & 6. Step 7 is often another matter. The truth is that some clubs do not want to move out of their comfort zone and that is fine. Play at Step 7 to do that, but clogging the whole system at Step 5 by consistently refusing promotion is no longer the easy option

Clubs will always find their natural level and some will have their golden times with successive promotions, but everyone must have the opportunity to move up if they are good enough on and off the pitch. There will be those who will fear upwards moves and are happy where they are ( and sometimes struggle to stay where they are) and those who relish the idea of progression.

The question we should all be demanding the answer to is, how can Steps 3 to 7 attract much more funding through grants and filtering of money within football from the top? Making the NLS the best it can be is what we surely all want. Access to football created money for development for all clubs at this level is the goal. Community hubs and access for every player at whatever level and young age to coached football is an aspiration that must become reality.

The NLS is key to all of this and the idea of a proper football pyramid is impossible without promotion and relegation on an equitable basis.


It is no good saying that clubs that do not want to move outside their comfort zone stay at Step 7. There are a lot of clubs who are at Step 5 in their comfort zone, and not just in the North East, while South Western Clubs are comfortable at Step 6

The question the FA should ask is how can we improve the system so as promotion is not an "uncomfortable" option



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paulh66
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Post #1428 of 1565 (2506 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

Indeed.

In most walks of life, not just football, promotion is something that inherently inspires feelings of joy and celebration. If it doesn't and you have to beat someone with a stick to take it, it's pretty obvious the structure of the organisation is fundamentally flawed.


paulh66
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Post #1429 of 1565 (2496 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To

The question we should all be demanding the answer to is, how can Steps 3 to 7 attract much more funding through grants and filtering of money within football from the top? Making the NLS the best it can be is what we surely all want. Access to football created money for development for all clubs at this level is the goal.


By making increasingly unnecessary and onerous grading demands on clubs? Thus creating a business case to argue for more funding to be made available? If so, a classic example of the tail wagging the dog.


drblues
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Jan 13, 2018, 11:12 AM

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Post #1430 of 1565 (2340 views)
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Re: [leohoenig] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree with a lot of what you say.


marinersteve
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Post #1431 of 1565 (2158 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If you joined a temperance society you can;t just ignore the rules and take a lager in. The NLS rules were made clear for this season, clubs were asked to submit (by August??) an plea to be exempted from the promotion protocol. So far as I know none did. So why can any club be permitted to stay in a league where they refuse to run by its rules? People forget, by treating all ENL clubs the same, that the long standing refusal of clubs to go up (roundly condemned on this forum!!!!) had an adverse affect on other teams. If Morpeth win the league and are allowed to stay to keep winning the league, it is totally unfair on the others who actually do want promotion. Blyth manage pretty well and they are almost as far north and not sitting right on the A1.... It creates the same type of block we've seen too often before Life in the EvoStik is fine and interesting and I imagine if we finish in a promotion spot we'll not be refusing it.



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drblues
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Re: [marinersteve] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Excellent post


paulh66
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Post #1433 of 1565 (2083 views)
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Re: [marinersteve] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or


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If you joined a temperance society you can;t just ignore the rules and take a lager in. The NLS rules were made clear for this season, clubs were asked to submit (by August??) an plea to be exempted from the promotion protocol. So far as I know none did. So why can any club be permitted to stay in a league where they refuse to run by its rules?


Obviously they can't. And, as far as we know, nobody is seeking to so it's a non-issue at the moment.

Bigger picture, the FA can play the 'rules is rules' card all they like but it ducks the issue of why make punitive rules in the first place that could - could - jeopardise clubs' futures rather than come up with something more equitable. Though again, time will tell if this too is a non-issue.


kirby knitters
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Post #1434 of 1565 (2067 views)
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Re: [marinersteve] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

And asking to be exempted from promotion gave no guarantee that you would be safe from these FA rules come the end of the season so i'd not read too much into the fact that no club bothered to ask.

What were clubs supposed to do? Resign from leagues en masse under protest?

Fair play to you though marinersteve. You are the first person that i have encountered on-line or in person that has defended this madness.!



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cope1
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Re: [marinersteve] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If you wanted to drink a pint of lager you probably wouldn't join the Temperance Society in the first place. A better analogy would be someone working all their life for a specific corporation, then told they have to work extra hours or leave.

There are many reasons clubs don't want to take promotion and I don't see why they should have to. That the system requires teams to move up is not the responsibility of individual clubs, and there is an easy way around it by simply offering promotion to the highest placed club which applies.


paulh66
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Post #1436 of 1565 (1916 views)
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Re: [cope1] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

That the system requires teams to move up is not the responsibility of individual clubs, and there is an easy way around it by simply offering promotion to the highest placed club which applies.


Exactly. It's so obvious that it's difficult to see why it's been ignored.

Bishop Auckland seem to be one of those clubs who apply but are perceived as being blocked. Yet they obviously believe they'd be competitive at the higher level, even if they're only mid-table at step 5, or else they wouldn't bother applying. Clubs like this are probably more likely to make a fist of it at the higher level than clubs who are dragged up against their will.

And it's all about players. Bishop obviously feel they'll attract players that'll make a decent fist of it at the higher level, other clubs may well feel they'll lose their best players by going up and won't be competitive (or even worse) - something which happens often with other step 5 promotees, Hellenic and Southern Comb being good examples.


buncranaboy
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Post #1437 of 1565 (1887 views)
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Re: [cope1] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
There are many reasons clubs don't want to take promotion and I don't see why they should have to. That the system requires teams to move up is not the responsibility of individual clubs, and there is an easy way around it by simply offering promotion to the highest placed club which applies.


But that's no way to run a spreadsheet, introducing random elements like that.
However, that is the only logical answer and clubs should state (say after 50% or 75% of league games played) whether or not they wish to be in the frame for promotion. That way, everyone knows the score, even if it results in the seventh placed side or whatever moving up. And before Dersingham Boy gets all upset about lack of ambition - if the players of a league winning team want to move up but the club doesn't, then they move on and upwards if a club at a higher level think they can cut it and the club can remain in their comfort zone with potentially a whole new bunch of players for the following season.

Title-winners should be celebrated, not punished.


windydcfc
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Post #1438 of 1565 (1735 views)
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Re: [cope1] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If you wanted to drink a pint of lager you probably wouldn't join the Temperance Society in the first place. A better analogy would be someone working all their life for a specific corporation, then told they have to work extra hours or leave.

There are many reasons clubs don't want to take promotion and I don't see why they should have to. That the system requires teams to move up is not the responsibility of individual clubs, and there is an easy way around it by simply offering promotion to the highest placed club which applies.



Before everyone gets too hot around the collar! How many clubs at step 5 are Ďbothí in a position to go up & Ďdonítí want to?
If the answer is one club ĎMorpeth Towní, then why all these posts on behalf of one club? Letís be honest, most clubs that donít want to go up, havenít got a cat in hells chance & have made sure itís an impossibility! Morpeth Town are throwing serious money at their squad & saying promotion is going to bankrupt them is a little bit hard to believe! Now is the solution elsewhere? I believe so & the multiple promotions from the EBAC NL couldíve been one! Do I think that the FAís solution is the right one? No, but my arguments arenít as entrenched as certain members on this forum!


paulh66
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Post #1439 of 1565 (1703 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

And before you start calling people out, get both the premise of your argument and your facts straight.

We're discussing a rule that's in place for all time until it's revoked or altered. Nobody - apart from you - is basing their argument on it affecting only one club. Though one would be one too many.

And can you back up your claim that Morpeth are "saying promotion is going to bankrupt them"? The official release from the club a few weeks ago certainly didn't say that. And what is Morpeth's wage bill, out of interest?


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jan 14, 2018, 7:44 AM)


windydcfc
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Post #1440 of 1565 (1687 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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And before you start calling people out, get both the premise of your argument and your facts straight.

We're discussing a rule that's in place for all time until it's revoked or altered. Nobody - apart from you - is basing their argument on it affecting only one club. Though one would be one too many.

And can you back up your claim that Morpeth are "saying promotion is going to bankrupt them"? The official release from the club a few weeks ago certainly didn't say that. And what is Morpeth's wage bill, out of interest?



This discussion started over 5 UCL clubs & it isnít the UCL Prem teams. Because all would accept promotion. So itís a few UCL1 clubs, that will have no extra travelling!
I was replying to the posts that mentioned that this will send clubs to the wall!
Itís been mentioned on the NLZ that itís step 2 standard wages! Iíll see if I can find the figure out. But they arenít struggling in the slightest!
As Iíve previously mentioned, Iím open to looking at alternatives & seeing what would be the best solution.
Some on here, are against any changes full stop. But I know you arenít one of those. So is there a package of compromise solutions?
You must have seen, that Iíve posted on many occasions that I donít agree with the compulsory promotion as it stands!


wazzafan
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Re: [buncranaboy] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Couldn't agree more. I'll accept the challenge of the random elements! Wink

I just do the spreadsheet because I enjoy doing it. Plus, I get positive responses from people who read it. I hardly ever post on the forum because I don't have anything important to say! I do read the majority of the General & Restructurng posts nonetheless.



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drblues
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's getting more and more ridiculous with every suggestion. Clubs should be able to find their own level that they can support, with the travelling and ground facilities that that level implies, and that their income and level of support can maintain. Forcing them upwards against their will is completely lacking in common sense.

Now, according to your proposal, a team that is lucky enough to get all its soldiers aligned and wins or comes second in a league will have two choices - go up to a level beyond their facilities, location, support and finance can support, or be dropped down to Step 6 where they will quite possibly win that, and what if they win Step 5 again and the whole merry-go-round starts all over again.


It is not my proposal. Your argument is fatally flawed. You seem to be suggesting that a lot of clubs who finish in a promotion place would prefer to refuse it. I believe that most would accept promotion and the refusers would definitely be in the minority. The football pyramid cannot be run or organised on the demands of a limited minority. You seem to be in the camp that thinks it should. I disagree with that.


(This post was edited by drblues on Jan 14, 2018, 3:47 PM)


paulh66
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

Out of interest, has the FA conducted an impact assessment on what the changes mean for clubs? Both financial and non-financial, direct and indirect, positive and negative? If not, and given the very sensible unanswered concerns raised in previous posts, I'd suggest the fatal flaws lie a little closer to the FA.


Richard Rundle
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's been run for the past however many years with voluntary application for promotion from what is now the Step 5 leagues, and there doesn't seem to have been a major problem with that, outside the fact that Step 4 in the far north isn't attractive to most of the Northern League teams. It's not broken, so this idea seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. No-one seems to have any "demands", so your argument seems bizarre in the extreme.

Take a club like Cribbs for example. They're currently in the top 6 of the Western League, getting a few dozen spectators in a plesantly rural ground between Bristol urban sprawl and the M5. They have probably reached the limit of what they can realistically achieve. If they have one excellent season and finish what would nominally be a promotion position, do you really think it is going to do any good to force them to play one season at Step 4, build more and more pointless ground "improvements" and turn what is at the moment a very attractive setting into a concrete jungle with ugly fences all around, and still attract a few dozen spectators?

If Windy's insinuation that you are someone of influcence at the FA is correct, god help grassroots football in this country. It's going to the dogs quickly enough without this kind of help.

How do we reclaim our game from those at Wembley?


drblues
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Post #1445 of 1565 (1309 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Out of interest, has the FA conducted an impact assessment on what the changes mean for clubs? Both financial and non-financial, direct and indirect, positive and negative? If not, and given the very sensible unanswered concerns raised in previous posts, I'd suggest the fatal flaws lie a little closer to the FA.


Which sensible questions? There are many placed here every day along with huge speculation, demands, opinions and of course the not so sensible questions. It matters not though how a question is answered because it will not satisfy everyone. I could give 12 answers now and it will bring forth dozens of more questions and disagreements. In the same way, however the NLS is organised it will not satisfy some.

Let's see what happens?


drblues
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Jan 14, 2018, 2:49 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's been run for the past however many years with voluntary application for promotion from what is now the Step 5 leagues, and there doesn't seem to have been a major problem with that, outside the fact that Step 4 in the far north isn't attractive to most of the Northern League teams. It's not broken, so this idea seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. No-one seems to have any "demands", so your argument seems bizarre in the extreme.

Take a club like Cribbs for example. They're currently in the top 6 of the Western League, getting a few dozen spectators in a plesantly rural ground between Bristol urban sprawl and the M5. They have probably reached the limit of what they can realistically achieve. If they have one excellent season and finish what would nominally be a promotion position, do you really think it is going to do any good to force them to play one season at Step 4, build more and more pointless ground "improvements" and turn what is at the moment a very attractive setting into a concrete jungle with ugly fences all around, and still attract a few dozen spectators?

If Windy's insinuation that you are someone of influcence at the FA is correct, god help grassroots football in this country. It's going to the dogs quickly enough without this kind of help.

How do we reclaim our game from those at Wembley?


You are forgetting that more divisions are entering the NLS from next season as just one answer to your critique. To answer another, where would you draw this mythical concrete jungle line for Cribbs? Step 3? Step 2? But I shall stop there. If you want to continue to be offensive then the discussion is certainly over.


(This post was edited by drblues on Jan 14, 2018, 2:57 PM)


Tim
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Post #1447 of 1565 (1269 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If the team that wins a league doesn't want promotion, and the next team below them does, they can take the promotion place. What is so difficult for the FA about this proposition?


paulh66
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Post #1448 of 1565 (1264 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

I suppose the simplest solution that the FA seems to have disregarded about any perceived blockages in the system is to simply promote the highest placed applicant rather than forcibly promote somebody higher against their will. Worth remembering that step 6, for example, has on several occasions done likewise, trawling the nether regions of step 7 to give ambitious clubs a leg up, and successfully so.

Whilst acknowledging the very real concerns raised about the FA's approach, I do retain an open mind about whether the changes will work or not. I'm happy to "let's see what happens" but I'd hope the FA have a more convincing, evidence-based argument than that in support of what they're doing.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jan 14, 2018, 3:13 PM)


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Post #1449 of 1565 (1259 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I enjoy reading this debate and I can see arguments for and against many of the proposals here.

But let's be honest, the FA is not going to read this forum, and even if they did they would dismiss it as the ramblings of a few fans.

The FA is 100% committed to achieving, over time, the 1-2-4-8-16 arrangement. As long as there are teams to fill each of those slots they don't care about anything else. How solvent these clubs are is of no interest to them. If it was it wouldn't have asked Step 5 clubs with average crowds of less than 100 to install, at considerable costs, a minimum of 150 seats. The "blazers" who sit on FA Committees have mainly come from leagues or regional FA's. They have only in the past been interested in engrandising their own empires, and they have carried this attitude into their time at the FA. As long as they get free tickets to the Cup Final they are happy.

Let's not forget that it's not so long ago that the Government said that the FA was effectively not fit for purpose, and I don't think it's changed much since then. If clubs wish to stay at their comfort zone, and I've no problem with that, they won't get help from the FA. Those clubs will have to make sure themselves that they stay were they want to be. And I'm sure that's what will happen.


ictoan
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I suppose the simplest solution that the FA seems to have disregarded about any perceived blockages in the system is to simply promote the highest placed applicant rather than forcibly promote somebody higher against their will. Worth remembering that something similar has happened plenty of times between steps 7 and 6, for example, and successfully so.


I would support this view as my impression is that promoted teams strengthen their squads to take account of their new league/division.
In a way it's only a reverse of the system demoting clubs without a necessary grading for their Step even if they are not in a relegation league position.



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