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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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Swindon Addick
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Dec 31, 2017, 9:30 AM

Posts: 529
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Post #1401 of 1978 (7079 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The bouncing ball of a consecutive promotion/ relegation cycle won't be permitted though.

Forgive me if there's an obvious answer to this, but how would this be prevented? If grade F is enough for promotion, what additional rule will be in place that disqualifies certain clubs with grade F from going up, on the basis of what's happened in the previous season?


The current NLS Regulations say so. Specifically they state that "if a Club is relegated for not achieving the required Grade for the Step at which it is playing it will not be eligible for promotion again until it has attained the required Grade for the Step to which it wishes to be promoted. The Club must have that Grade at 31st March in the year in which it seeks promotion".

Thanks. Didn't know that.

So if compulsory promotion were to be introduced, a club could only be forced to take promotion once - if they didn't improve their ground, they'd then be jut as ineligible as a reserve team or a university team which had reached their maximum permitted step.



Cambridge City - on a tour of places we've never heard of and can't spell.


windydcfc
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Dec 31, 2017, 9:35 AM

Posts: 9015
Location: Lincoln
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #1402 of 1978 (7072 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
The bouncing ball of a consecutive promotion/ relegation cycle won't be permitted though.

Forgive me if there's an obvious answer to this, but how would this be prevented? If grade F is enough for promotion, what additional rule will be in place that disqualifies certain clubs with grade F from going up, on the basis of what's happened in the previous season?


The current NLS Regulations say so. Specifically they state that "if a Club is relegated for not achieving the required Grade for the Step at which it is playing it will not be eligible for promotion again until it has attained the required Grade for the Step to which it wishes to be promoted. The Club must have that Grade at 31st March in the year in which it seeks promotion".



So if a team are promoted against there will & haven’t attained the ground grading. All they have to do is absolutely nothing to there ground & they’ll be demoted back to where they want to be.
Didn’t DrBlues mention that the F Grade was probably going to get beefed up after this season & wouldn’t this rule out clubs doing nothing? Because the threat of demotion to step 6 would be a bridge too far.


buncranaboy
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Dec 31, 2017, 8:27 PM

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Post #1403 of 1978 (6673 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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My opinion on why there are clubs aplenty interested in going up, is that the FA are starting to create a structure in there regions that suits them. There’s been a few forum members on here that have taken the piss over the years about people being pyramidistas. I think the evidence shows the those nay sayers are wrong & they can’t admit it. Because there egos are too bigWink

What on earth are you going on about? What is this evidence? Strikes me that there is little difference between the numbers of clubs likely to be promoted this season as in any other season in recent years. The main difference is the sheer volume of hearsay posts generated by you to support what appears to have become your raison d'etre.
And as for your other statement :

I don't mind people having one stance or the other & I'll listen to both on this forum. Because that's what I enjoy doing. But it appears that one or two forum members only contribution is to sit back, then take the piss & sod all else

You're way off beam windy. My contribution is to pay money to clubs up and down the land every week for admission, programmes and catering. Your time is spent pestering club and league officials ad infinitum for tittle-tattle. Tell me again about contributions ??


Yorkstar
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Jan 2, 2018, 12:45 PM

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Post #1404 of 1978 (6152 views)
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Re: [Geoff] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Good point Phil. Step 7 to 6 in this part of the world (the South East) is a huge step. For most clubs it involves going from roped off or railed pitch on a recreation ground with no spectator facilities to a fully enclosed ground with cover, hardstanding, etc.
Again, around here, spectators at step 7 are limited almost exclusively to friends & family plus the odd ex-player or dog walker and the even odder nutter like me.
I now this is not the case everywhere (your own area being a good example) but for most clubs currently at Step 7 in the South East the only way to move up is via ground share as the cost and planning restraints make it almost impossible to develop an existing playing field or to purchase a site and build a new ground.
Those that do take the plunge generally take years to build up their support to more than a handful, relying on visiting fans and a few floaters to get them to the stage where the spectators outnumber the participants.
The big question is surely at what level does football change from being a participant sport to a spectator sport.
If this this happens on moving into step 7, as it seems to in some parts of the country, then the ground standards at step 7 are too low. If it is on moving from Step 7 to 6 (as it is around here) then the current standards are fine.
Oh and of course the standards at Step 6 & above are too high.


Same logic applies in the York area. None of the York league clubs have the grounds facilities for Step 6 at present. In fact, from York City (NLN) to Step 7, there are no other clubs in York in the NLS. The nearest clubs are Selby and Tadcaster - 10 miles away.


doktorb berske
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Jan 3, 2018, 9:41 AM

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Post #1405 of 1978 (5742 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

From the Cheshire Leagues Twitter account



The 6 applicant clubs to the @nwcfl from the CFL are: @Wtfcopenage @ashtontownafc @LinotypeCheadle @RylandsFC @DatenFC & @Pilkingtonfc. They are all subject to acceptance by The FA and must meet various criteria for Step 6 football. Good luck to them all! #progression #ambition

----


Translated into English

The six applicant clubs to the North West Counties from the Cheshire Leagues , subject to FA approval, are

Wythenshawe Town, Ashton (in Makerfield), Cheadle Heath Nomads, Rylands, Daten, and Pilkington.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


keneastlancs
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Jan 3, 2018, 1:11 PM

Posts: 468
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Post #1406 of 1978 (5577 views)
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Re: [doktorb berske] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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From the Cheshire Leagues Twitter account



The 6 applicant clubs to the @nwcfl from the CFL are: @Wtfcopenage @ashtontownafc @LinotypeCheadle @RylandsFC @DatenFC & @Pilkingtonfc. They are all subject to acceptance by The FA and must meet various criteria for Step 6 football. Good luck to them all! #progression #ambition Have the Cheshire league indicated if they will allow more than one of the applicants to be promoted into the new NWCL if needed?

----


Translated into English

The six applicant clubs to the North West Counties from the Cheshire Leagues , subject to FA approval, are

Wythenshawe Town, Ashton (in Makerfield), Cheadle Heath Nomads, Rylands, Daten, and Pilkington.



keneastlancs
Reserve Team Sub

Jan 3, 2018, 11:41 PM

Posts: 468
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Post #1407 of 1978 (5172 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Have the Cheshire league indicated if they will allow more than one of the applicants to be promoted into the new NWCL if needed?


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jan 4, 2018, 7:11 AM

Posts: 3392
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #1408 of 1978 (5048 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Have the Cheshire league indicated if they will allow more than one of the applicants to be promoted into the new NWCL if needed?


Dont think they have much say in it theses days.


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jan 4, 2018, 1:35 PM

Posts: 4771
Location: Saddleworth
Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

Post #1409 of 1978 (4801 views)
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Re: [Swindon Addick] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The bouncing ball of a consecutive promotion/ relegation cycle won't be permitted though.

Forgive me if there's an obvious answer to this, but how would this be prevented? If grade F is enough for promotion, what additional rule will be in place that disqualifies certain clubs with grade F from going up, on the basis of what's happened in the previous season?


The current NLS Regulations say so. Specifically they state that "if a Club is relegated for not achieving the required Grade for the Step at which it is playing it will not be eligible for promotion again until it has attained the required Grade for the Step to which it wishes to be promoted. The Club must have that Grade at 31st March in the year in which it seeks promotion".

Thanks. Didn't know that.

So if compulsory promotion were to be introduced, a club could only be forced to take promotion once - if they didn't improve their ground, they'd then be jut as ineligible as a reserve team or a university team which had reached their maximum permitted step.

Only if failing to meet ground requirements takes precedence over relegation for any other reason. If another reason did take precedence, then they could be eligible to be promoted again. But maybe the NLS rules cover that somewhere.

Personally I think the answer to the Northern league lack of local games when promoted to step 4 is to promote a bloc. If you promote a nucleus of say 8, there's enough local games to keep crowds up and costs down. People can say it's wrong to promote more from one league than others this season, but if you took the last 10 seasons, you'd just be evening up the total over that period. It's a shame it hasn't happened this time. Fixing boundaries would also help as the continued southward drift of the NP1's makes it less and less appealing for Northern League sides. I also agree with Geoff regarding removing the blockage of teams winning the Northern league but not wanting promotion by taking the highest team that does. I'd go beyond 6th if need be - the 7th best Northern league is IMO likely to be much better than the bottom sides in the NP1's. I wouldn't take anyone in a relegation spot, but Newcastle Blue Star's promotion from 10th saw them comfortable in NP1N. One point re attendances though - most NL sides taking promotion see their attendances up in NP1's. Maybe that's seeing different sides than people are used to, both for home and away fans.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (800) Sportzentrum Bonningstedt SV Rugenbergen 4-2 VW Billstedt
With FC United: 130
On the agenda:
Apr 12: Longridge Town v Vickerstown
Apr 14: FC United v Darlington


Tim
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 4, 2018, 4:22 PM

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Post #1410 of 1978 (4677 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That would be the Newcastle Blue Star who were so comfortable they folded a year later...


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 4, 2018, 8:11 PM

Posts: 6932
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Post #1411 of 1978 (4499 views)
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Re: [Tim] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are you claiming that one season in the NPL was entirely responsible for their bankruptcy. Or is that (Newcastle) BS?


Tim
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Jan 4, 2018, 8:26 PM

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Post #1412 of 1978 (4471 views)
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Re: [ladderman] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No, I am merely suggesting that they are not a great example for promotion from 11th place.


Richard Rundle
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Jan 4, 2018, 8:54 PM

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Post #1413 of 1978 (4434 views)
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Re: [ladderman] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Are you claiming that one season in the NPL was entirely responsible for their bankruptcy. Or is that (Newcastle) BS?


It was a contributing factor. If they never went for promotion, they wouldn't have had to leave The Wheatsheaf and wouldn't have had to repay all the grants they had to do it up.


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 5, 2018, 11:39 AM

Posts: 6932
Location: Bishop's Stortford
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Post #1414 of 1978 (4137 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Are you claiming that one season in the NPL was entirely responsible for their bankruptcy. Or is that (Newcastle) BS?


It was a contributing factor. If they never went for promotion, they wouldn't have had to leave The Wheatsheaf and wouldn't have had to repay all the grants they had to do it up.

It never made sense to do that. I can only assume they thought they could blag their way through the situation. It also won't happen again


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jan 5, 2018, 1:10 PM

Posts: 4771
Location: Saddleworth
Team(s): FCUM, MUFC, Hammarby, St Pauli, Hawthorn (AFL)

Post #1415 of 1978 (4044 views)
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Re: [Tim] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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No, I am merely suggesting that they are not a great example for promotion from 11th place.

They competed perfectly well on the pitch. Of course you have to get things right off the pitch but you have to do that from any position you're promoted from. As I've understood it, at the time they folded, they only owed the grant repayment debt.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (800) Sportzentrum Bonningstedt SV Rugenbergen 4-2 VW Billstedt
With FC United: 130
On the agenda:
Apr 12: Longridge Town v Vickerstown
Apr 14: FC United v Darlington


Dazzla84
Youth Team Star


Jan 5, 2018, 3:03 PM

Posts: 289
Location: South Shields
Team(s): Newcastle United, South Shields FC

Post #1416 of 1978 (3913 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Only if failing to meet ground requirements takes precedence over relegation for any other reason. If another reason did take precedence, then they could be eligible to be promoted again. But maybe the NLS rules cover that somewhere.

Personally I think the answer to the Northern league lack of local games when promoted to step 4 is to promote a bloc. If you promote a nucleus of say 8, there's enough local games to keep crowds up and costs down. People can say it's wrong to promote more from one league than others this season, but if you took the last 10 seasons, you'd just be evening up the total over that period. It's a shame it hasn't happened this time. Fixing boundaries would also help as the continued southward drift of the NP1's makes it less and less appealing for Northern League sides. I also agree with Geoff regarding removing the blockage of teams winning the Northern league but not wanting promotion by taking the highest team that does. I'd go beyond 6th if need be - the 7th best Northern league is IMO likely to be much better than the bottom sides in the NP1's. I wouldn't take anyone in a relegation spot, but Newcastle Blue Star's promotion from 10th saw them comfortable in NP1N. One point re attendances though - most NL sides taking promotion see their attendances up in NP1's. Maybe that's seeing different sides than people are used to, both for home and away fans.


That is not entirely true in some cases, then again in Darlignton's case, they were playing a few miles away in Bishop Auckland and didnt really see a big upwards attendance spike until they moved into their new Blackwell Meadows home midway through last season

ATTENDANCE AVERAGES OF LAST THREE PROMOTED NORTHERN LEAGUE CLUBS (League Only)

DARLINGTON
2012/13 Northern League D1: 1319
2013/14 NPL D1 North: 1097
DIFFERENCE: - 222 ( Down 37% )

SPENNYMOOR TOWN
2013/14 Northern League D1: 430
2014/15 NPL D1 North: 542
DIFFERENCE: + 112 ( Up 26% )

SOUTH SHIELDS (So Far)
2016/17 Northern League D1: 1226
2017/18 NPL D1 North: 1617
DIFFERENCE: + 391 ( up 32% )


(This post was edited by Dazzla84 on Jan 5, 2018, 3:05 PM)


shimtoan
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Jan 5, 2018, 3:03 PM

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Post #1417 of 1978 (3912 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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No, I am merely suggesting that they are not a great example for promotion from 11th place.

They competed perfectly well on the pitch. Of course you have to get things right off the pitch but you have to do that from any position you're promoted from. As I've understood it, at the time they folded, they only owed the grant repayment debt.

and there I was thinking that grants and loans were different...



unless stated, all views are my own and are not the views of any other person, club, or organisation


paulh66
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Jan 5, 2018, 3:45 PM

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Post #1418 of 1978 (3883 views)
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Re: [shimtoan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
No, I am merely suggesting that they are not a great example for promotion from 11th place.

They competed perfectly well on the pitch. Of course you have to get things right off the pitch but you have to do that from any position you're promoted from. As I've understood it, at the time they folded, they only owed the grant repayment debt.

and there I was thinking that grants and loans were different...


They are. But grants often have clawback arrangements which are linked to the original purpose of the grant and intended to ensure it is fulfilled. The move of ground, iirc, triggered a clawback provision and the grant became repayable; if they'd stayed there, it wouldn't have been (all other things being equal).


drblues
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Jan 12, 2018, 5:08 PM

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Post #1419 of 1978 (2790 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Didn’t DrBlues mention that the F Grade was probably going to get beefed up after this season & wouldn’t this rule out clubs doing nothing? Because the threat of demotion to step 6 would be a bridge too far.


The enhancement of Grade F is not now going to happen in the short to medium term, but Grade E is all but abolished.

Compulsory promotion it seems opens the door for a playoff scenario between 7 second placed Step 5 clubs and the 7 lowest clubs left at Step 4 after usual relegation. This though will not be introduced for a couple of seasons.

It seems that Step 5 clubs who refuse promotion could be relegated to Step 6.


(This post was edited by drblues on Jan 12, 2018, 5:12 PM)


Richard Rundle
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Jan 12, 2018, 5:46 PM

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Post #1420 of 1978 (2750 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It seems that Step 5 clubs who refuse promotion could be relegated to Step 6.


You couldn't make this stuff up.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 12, 2018, 6:40 PM

Posts: 9015
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Post #1421 of 1978 (2707 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Compulsory promotion it seems opens the door for a playoff scenario between 7 second placed Step 5 clubs and the 7 lowest clubs left at Step 4 after usual relegation. This though will not be introduced for a couple of seasons.


I like the playoff idea for extra promotions. Would it just be a top 7 ppg basis(which I don’t like)or would all 14 2nd placed sides have a semifinal to determine which 7 progress(which I do like)?


kirby knitters
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Jan 12, 2018, 7:19 PM

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Post #1422 of 1978 (2649 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
It seems that Step 5 clubs who refuse promotion could be relegated to Step 6.


You couldn't make this stuff up.

If it wasn't so stupid it'd be laughable. Once again clubs have not been asked for observations but it would not have made any difference if they had.

Everyone should turn promotion down, that would soon stop these idiots in their tracks!



Kirby Muxloe FC.
Former proud members of The Midland Football League. (Premier Division)


drblues
Youth Team Sub

Jan 12, 2018, 9:52 PM

Posts: 140
Location: London
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Post #1423 of 1978 (2541 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
It seems that Step 5 clubs who refuse promotion could be relegated to Step 6.


You couldn't make this stuff up.


The National League System is called that for a reason. Clubs are not forced to play in the NLS.

After 7 play off matches, 7 second placed clubs will have the play off excitement away at 7 Step 4 clubs. That could be 7 great matches at the end of a Step 5 season.


(This post was edited by drblues on Jan 12, 2018, 9:56 PM)


Tim
Man City Transfer Target!


Jan 12, 2018, 10:08 PM

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Post #1424 of 1978 (2518 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So where else can clubs play?


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jan 12, 2018, 10:16 PM

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Post #1425 of 1978 (2509 views)
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Re: [drblues] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The National League System is called that for a reason. Clubs are not forced to play in the NLS.


It's getting more and more ridiculous with every suggestion. Clubs should be able to find their own level that they can support, with the travelling and ground facilities that that level implies, and that their income and level of support can maintain. Forcing them upwards against their will is completely lacking in common sense.

Now, according to your proposal, a team that is lucky enough to get all its soldiers aligned and wins or comes second in a league will have two choices - go up to a level beyond their facilities, location, support and finance can support, or be dropped down to Step 6 where they will quite possibly win that, and what if they win Step 5 again and the whole merry-go-round starts all over again.

By all means include in your National League System the option for clubs of hard-working volunteers who WANT to go up the possibility to do so, but enough clubs are folding now without the FA positively dreaming up systems to accelerate their demise.

To finish with, you say clubs aren't forced to play in the NLS. What other options are there? Or do you expect clubs with Step 5 infrastructure to be happy playing pub sides on multi-pitch municipal sports fields? Perhaps it is time for the NLS to be stripped back to Steps 1 to 4, and take Steps 5, 6, & 7 out of the madness all together.

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