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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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royboy
Reserve Team Regular

Oct 10, 2017, 3:51 AM

Posts: 535
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Team(s): Borrowash

Post #951 of 997 (4315 views)
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Re: [villan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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If you read Wassafan's prediction thread instead of just looking at his spreadsheets then you will see that at this stage they do not take into account ground grading but just represent current league positions. Hence if FA go fully with their current threat of relegating non compliant clubs a number of teams promoted to step 5 or remaining at step 6 could more likely end up in step 7. Many clubs cannot achieve the grading because they cannot get planning permission to do so.


Off course I had read wassafan's comments and ,if I may say so, I find it presumptuous of you to assume I hadn't.

Having read your post four times I still don't know what you are trying to get at. Apart, that is, from re-stating the obvious. Is it possible you didn't see I included the words" if we assume there are 35 non compliant clubs"?


wazzafan
Reserve Team Star

Oct 10, 2017, 7:43 AM

Posts: 850
Location: Warrington
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Re: [royboy] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We also need to consider the 25+ plus that were promoted from Step 7 last year. I'd say about half of them or so came up with just the H grade, and therefore they'll be in the same boat in needing to comply getting the G by March 31st.

Also, those clubs at step 6 who haven't had an inspection the last 2 years will be due one this time round. Any complacency on the part of these clubs thinking they have the grading and actually don't could prove costly! I do find it incredibly sad though that a club could be demoted to Step 7 on the grounds they don't have 'Exit' or 'Toilet' signs! Crazy



Non League Projections - 2018/19: http://goo.gl/MW6EFU

Step 1: http://goo.gl/UTHzqq
Step 2: http://goo.gl/oRDNEd
Step 3: http://goo.gl/HDFmG2
Step 4: http://goo.gl/V2YxhA
Step 5: http://goo.gl/RSUfK7
Step 6: http://goo.gl/cwVvN9


royboy
Reserve Team Regular

Oct 10, 2017, 10:57 AM

Posts: 535
Location: Arnold Nottingham
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Post #953 of 997 (4120 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A very good point so my 35 could prove somewhat optimistic.

By the way when do you feel it is likely the FA will publish a list of non-compliant clubs? That is if they actually do so.


villan
First Team Sub

Oct 10, 2017, 1:42 PM

Posts: 1047
Location: Redditch
Team(s): Aston Villa-Newport County-

Post #954 of 997 (3936 views)
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Re: [royboy] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree my comments were stating the obvious. If you recognise that I find your post asking "what is all this stuff about decimation of step 6 & wassafans' spreadsheets clearly indicating there is no such problem." all the more puzzling. However I do not want to get into a debate on this as only time will tell.



End 2016-17, Total Grounds 1308

New grounds 2017/18 24


royboy
Reserve Team Regular

Oct 10, 2017, 5:57 PM

Posts: 535
Location: Arnold Nottingham
Team(s): Borrowash

Post #955 of 997 (3710 views)
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Re: [villan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I agree my comments were stating the obvious. If you recognise that I find your post asking "what is all this stuff about decimation of step 6 & wassafans' spreadsheets clearly indicating there is no such problem." all the more puzzling. However I do not want to get into a debate on this as only time will tell.

,
Had you read all of my post, instead of just the opening lines, you could have made constructive comments on the issues I raised, namely the 35&29 figures and the Hellenic question.
Might I suggest, in future, you read the whole of some ones post before dashing of a reply.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 11, 2017, 7:53 AM

Posts: 3264
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #956 of 997 (3430 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We also need to consider the 25+ plus that were promoted from Step 7 last year. I'd say about half of them or so came up with just the H grade, and therefore they'll be in the same boat in needing to comply getting the G by March 31st.

Also, those clubs at step 6 who haven't had an inspection the last 2 years will be due one this time round. Any complacency on the part of these clubs thinking they have the grading and actually don't could prove costly! I do find it incredibly sad though that a club could be demoted to Step 7 on the grounds they don't have 'Exit' or 'Toilet' signs! Crazy


Given the circumstances any club that is complacent about ground grading does not get any sympathy from me.
I agree with others that the FALC may take a step back from what they have stated. But as it stands they have all been told enough that they will be relegated so make very sure you are ok with the grading.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 11, 2017, 8:00 AM

Posts: 3264
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #957 of 997 (3428 views)
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Re: [royboy] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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A very good point so my 35 could prove somewhat optimistic.

By the way when do you feel it is likely the FA will publish a list of non-compliant clubs? That is if they actually do so.


It would be of great benefit to all if they produced an accurate list now.
Then there would be no misunderstandings.
If you don't comply you have 5 months and 20 days to put it right if you can afford it. If not down you go.


ComradeBT
Youth Team Star


Oct 11, 2017, 1:52 PM

Posts: 317
Location: London
Team(s): WWFC; WFC

Post #958 of 997 (3196 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That blinkered statement is partially summed up in its own accord.

1) Some clubs literally cannot afford to achieve ground grading

i.e. >>>

2) Some clubs cannot afford the legal fees to afford planning costs for floodlights, for example
3) Some clubs cannot afford to build a new stand, even with partial foundation funding.
4) Some clubs will never be able to acquire planning for floodlights or ground enhancements
5) Some clubs will never be able to obtain consent (if they don't own their own ground) to even apply for the above
6) Why is this all so necessary when Step 6 doesn't 'necessitate' the need for floodlights?
6) Why should clubs go through such pain, labour and cost (when most/all are run by volunteers with minimal spare time) to acquire unachievable ground grading targets if the league/FA then rebalance the grading requirements in future or immediately suffer relegation rendering all of the above a huge waste of effort and money?
7) Why should clubs go through such pain, labour and cost (when most/all are run by volunteers with minimal spare time) to acquire unachievable ground grading targets if other clubs simply bunk-up in a groundshare to obtain promotion/relevant ground grading and yet have no interest in providing a community hub for sporting and social inclusion and run from a base miles away, alienating any support they may have had or could have in future?

All of the above are applicable to this level of non-league now and in future.

Demoting clubs as 'punishment' will decimate our game in local communities. Carte-blanche comments 'ratifying' the process are misinformed comments at best.



ComradeBT
-- Non-League football club founder.

447 different football grounds visited. Last out:

Kennels Lane - Fleet Spurs 3-4 Worcester Park
Att: 30


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Oct 11, 2017, 2:00 PM

Posts: 3264
Location: Canterbury
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Post #959 of 997 (3184 views)
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Re: [ComradeBT] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

in what way is that a blinkered statement.
Its an accurate summing up of the situation.
I did not say i agreed with it.
Read things properly before going on the attack.


paulh66
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Oct 11, 2017, 2:05 PM

Posts: 15632
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Re: [Unicorn] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A very good point so my 35 could prove somewhat optimistic.

By the way when do you feel it is likely the FA will publish a list of non-compliant clubs? That is if they actually do so.


It would be of great benefit to all if they produced an accurate list now.
Then there would be no misunderstandings.
If you don't comply you have 5 months and 20 days to put it right if you can afford it. If not down you go.


The FALC identified the non-compliant clubs when they released this season's constitutions. Can't see any reason why they need to release another list until the March 31 deadline has elapsed. In the meantime, obviously there will be communication with these clubs, and those that do get the grade before then will doubtless make it known.


Yeading89
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Oct 11, 2017, 2:33 PM

Posts: 19
Location: Milton Keynes
Team(s): hayes&yeading

Post #961 of 997 (3145 views)
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

Surely both the clubs and the FA need to look at themselves.If a club has no ground of there own ALL they have is a name and have limitations.Also if a club does not/cannot do the work they must be expected to be placed where they don't need to worry every year ? Plus why pack out leagues with Reserve sides. Take away all these clubs and put them in an alternative Pyramid of there own knowing that they will not be going towards the league etc. Strengthen the county leagues and put the reserve teams in RESERVE leagues. Surely the clubs who are prepared to do the w ork necessary should be looked after rather than keep bending the rules just to make numbers up.


Sarumio
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Oct 11, 2017, 2:34 PM

Posts: 5281
Location: Ilminster
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Re: [paulh66] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Step 6...this is the 10th level of football in England.


the TENTH!


Think the FA need someone to sit in on their meetings and just count up to 10 every couple of minutes so that they remember just how low this level of football is.


the TENTH level! Its just bloody ridiculous that clubs should need anything other than an enclosed ground, some turnstiles, a clubhouse and some changing facilities somewhere nearby! All this nonsense about numbers of seats and signs and toilets! Pah, bloody pathetic, bonkers in fact to enforce much more on clubs with average attendances of between 10-100.


TENTH level! TEEEEENNNNTTTTHHHHHH!!!!!


Yeading89
Junior Team Sub

Oct 11, 2017, 2:39 PM

Posts: 19
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Re: [Sarumio] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

If a team at level six or seven decides that they WANT to spend money to progress so be it but to force teams who are fractionally better than County league sides to spend is stupid to say the least.Surely everyone can see the amount of grass roots sides being priced out of existence.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 11, 2017, 3:31 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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...the TENTH level! Its just bloody ridiculous that clubs should need anything other than an enclosed ground, some turnstiles, a clubhouse and some changing facilities somewhere nearby! All this nonsense about numbers of seats and signs and toilets! Pah, bloody pathetic, bonkers in fact to enforce much more on clubs with average attendances of between 10-100.


I don't even think turnstiles are needed either. A simple pay box or even a person at a table at the entrance will do just fine.


BillShep
Junior Team Regular

Oct 11, 2017, 3:37 PM

Posts: 29
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Re: [Sarumio] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Step 6...this is the 10th level of football in England.


the TENTH!


Think the FA need someone to sit in on their meetings and just count up to 10 every couple of minutes so that they remember just how low this level of football is.


the TENTH level! Its just bloody ridiculous that clubs should need anything other than an enclosed ground, some turnstiles, a clubhouse and some changing facilities somewhere nearby! All this nonsense about numbers of seats and signs and toilets! Pah, bloody pathetic, bonkers in fact to enforce much more on clubs with average attendances of between 10-100.


TENTH level! TEEEEENNNNTTTTHHHHHH!!!!!


City of Liverpool FC only started playing last season and had an average home crowd of 450+. Yes, we share a ground with Bootle FC but we still take upto 200 to some of the away matches. This is why grounds at the TENTH level need to have facilities. To be able to safely house the fans that turn up. You can't always use the "One man and his dog" story all the time. New clubs, or Phoenix clubs are springing up all the time and are being followed by hundreds of fans so the need for improvements at this level is justified.

In Reply To



----------------------------------------------------------
City of Liverpool FC - Debut season 2016/17

North West Counties Division 1
Macron Cup Winners 16/17
Reusch Cup Winners 16/17
Play-Off Final Winners 16/17

Coral Non-League Team of The Year 2016/17



Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 11, 2017, 3:47 PM

Posts: 7259
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Re: [BillShep] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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City of Liverpool FC only started playing last season and had an average home crowd of 450+. Yes, we share a ground with Bootle FC but we still take upto 200 to some of the away matches. This is why grounds at the TENTH level need to have facilities. To be able to safely house the fans that turn up. You can't always use the "One man and his dog" story all the time. New clubs, or Phoenix clubs are springing up all the time and are being followed by hundreds of fans so the need for improvements at this level is justified.


So they've got to be able to cater for what might be a once-in-a-generation sized crowd? Give me strength.


Edited to tidy up the formatting.

(This post was edited by Richard Rundle on Oct 11, 2017, 6:18 PM)


Yeading89
Junior Team Sub

Oct 11, 2017, 6:07 PM

Posts: 19
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or

I remember the MIddx. League days of late 60's early 70's Yeading v Hanwell,Nth Greenford large crowds no facilities just good honest football three deep around the pitch.


BillShep
Junior Team Regular

Oct 11, 2017, 6:31 PM

Posts: 29
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is not once in a generation. Whitchurch Alport and Charnock Richard are getting 200-300 and both Runcorn teams are regularly getting the same. It's a pyramid and the base needs to be strengthened. If the teams that have the big crowds don't get promoted then the clubs will still need to provide decent facilities.
Are you saying that the clubs at this level should wait until they get in a promotion position before they should start to improve their grounds...?
I say it is a good thing that clubs should meet minimum gradings, maybe not floodlights for Level 6 but surely plans should be in place if the club is looking to advance up the ladder. If they aren't then be prepared to be asked to play in a lower division or League at some point in the future.



----------------------------------------------------------
City of Liverpool FC - Debut season 2016/17

North West Counties Division 1
Macron Cup Winners 16/17
Reusch Cup Winners 16/17
Play-Off Final Winners 16/17

Coral Non-League Team of The Year 2016/17



doktorb berske
Junior Team Star

Oct 12, 2017, 9:08 AM

Posts: 82
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Re: [royboy] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As ever with these discussions, truth lies somewhere in the middle.

It's not unreasonable to expect a minimum set of requirements from all venues which host non league football. The rub comes from deciding on what exactly the requirements are, and how to deal with non compliance.

For Step 6 and 7, we're far away from the "League 3" professionalism of the National League, of course. But they are in a pyramid system, and for good or ill, clubs in the pyramid must be assumed to want to meet the standards set by the governing body.

Clubs with little or no money for vast infrastructure projects aren't being asked to turn their park-like pitch into a Stadium, let's be clear.



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
Friendlies? No problem.
Bracketed ticks? Come on in, I say.

"I tried to organise freedom,
How Scandinavian of me!"


Geoff
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Oct 12, 2017, 11:08 AM

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Re: [doktorb berske] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Various comments regarding “Facilities” in this thread got me thinking. What facilities do I actually need to watch a football match and I could only come up with one – Somewhere to stand with a good view of the pitch.
Sure it is nice to have a fixed rail to lean on, get a cuppa at half-time and go to the loo is handy, but even at 67 I can manage to stand upright for a couple of hours, take a bottle or flask with me and my bladder remains sufficiently reliable to last that long too.
If I am going to be standing on grass or bare ground without any cover and it is wet I wear boots and a hat. Even where 300, 400 or 500 people turn up they will not need to stand more than 1 deep around the pitch.
Arguably the only facilities you need at step 6 are an enclosed ground (so you can take a gate) a railed off playing area and decent changing facilities for players and match officials. Where the league has more than 16 teams lights can also be considered a “need” as several mid-week games are likely, otherwise even they are not essential.
Everything else is a “nice to have” rather than “must have”
If club want to provide cover, seating, extensive catering facilities, etc. then fine, hopefully it will attract more people to come and watch them but that should be the club’s decision not forced upon them when it makes no economic sense.


mattyd6672
Ballboy/girl


Oct 12, 2017, 12:16 PM

Posts: 5
Location: Potton
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Re: [Geoff] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My Club Potton United have been in the UCL for a long time - even with the league moving further north. No away games are more than 90 minutes travel.Shift us into the SML and we end up with awful trips to London taking forever.If we do have to be moved (which no one wants) then surely the common sense thing to do would place us in the ECL ?


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Oct 12, 2017, 6:51 PM

Posts: 6756
Location: Bishop's Stortford
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Re: [BillShep] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm not sure how often can break this to you gently; the world doesn't revolve around City of Liverpool FC.

I do wonder if your club would've achieved if they'd needed to pay for infrastructure you believe is necessary


shimtoan
Reserve Team Star


Oct 13, 2017, 6:51 AM

Posts: 814
Location: Dunkirk, Nottingham
Team(s): Dunkirk

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Re: [Geoff] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Various comments regarding “Facilities” in this thread got me thinking. What facilities do I actually need to watch a football match and I could only come up with one – Somewhere to stand with a good view of the pitch.
Sure it is nice to have a fixed rail to lean on, get a cuppa at half-time and go to the loo is handy, but even at 67 I can manage to stand upright for a couple of hours, take a bottle or flask with me and my bladder remains sufficiently reliable to last that long too.
If I am going to be standing on grass or bare ground without any cover and it is wet I wear boots and a hat. Even where 300, 400 or 500 people turn up they will not need to stand more than 1 deep around the pitch.
Arguably the only facilities you need at step 6 are an enclosed ground (so you can take a gate) a railed off playing area and decent changing facilities for players and match officials. Where the league has more than 16 teams lights can also be considered a “need” as several mid-week games are likely, otherwise even they are not essential.
Everything else is a “nice to have” rather than “must have”
If club want to provide cover, seating, extensive catering facilities, etc. then fine, hopefully it will attract more people to come and watch them but that should be the club’s decision not forced upon them when it makes no economic sense.

We've got hardstanding round all 4 sides, fully railed pitch, 2 dugouts with 9 seats, 150 seats under cover, and 2 turnstiles, floodlights brighter than the sun, and all fully-enclosed. That's not including the clubhouse and changing facilities.

That's all well and good, but we might have enough through the only turnstile we use to fill all the seats maybe three or four times a year, and I've not yet seen a crowd cover the whole barrier one deep, let alone 3 or 4 (not even Hereford)


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 13, 2017, 9:53 PM

Posts: 8363
Location: Lincoln
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The NWCL has had at more than 10 clubs showing interest for the new regionalised NWCL1's. There has been interest from clubs outside the pyramid & from what I've heard they will definitely be considered. It's highly unlikely that any new clubs will be permitted to join either division. One club told me that each feeder league will only allow a maximum of 4 clubs to apply. With 3 clubs being the absolute maximum that'll be promoted from each feeder league. But it's likely that only 2 clubs will end up being promoted. There's been interest from clubs from the Wearside, West Lancs, West Yorks, West Riding, Staffs, Chesh, West Chesh, Liver Prem, Manc & WMRL leagues.


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Oct 13, 2017, 10:03 PM)


PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 14, 2017, 11:48 AM

Posts: 9328
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Re: [shimtoan] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I spend most of my time watching Scottish Junior football in the East and West Region. Standard-wise much of it is probably the equivalent of Steps 5/6.

Crowds at the matches I go to tend to be better than the norm at Steps 5/6.

I've never gained admission to a ground through a turnstile. Many grounds don't have hard standing on all sides. Hardly any have seating. Very few have floodlights and those that do hardly ever use them.

Most grounds have sufficient shelter to protect fans from the weather - I just take a brolly. Many don't have a clubhouse but you can be sure of getting a cup of tea and a pie.

Provided the ground is enclosed, there are reasonable toilet facilities, refreshments, adequate facilities for players and referees, no hidden dangers to life and limb and a barrier to lean on then to my mind a ground is adequate for that level. Clearly, if divisions were the size they tend to be in England floodlights would probably be essential. Midweek matches which can't be played in the evening with natural light are a rarity.

I realise that the FA and its trusts have loadsamoney to pour into the non-league system in England, but the costs to clubs playing mainly in front of less than 100 is still substantial. I don't feel I have lost out by not experiencing the facilities necessary to provide Step 5/6 football in England.

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