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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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windydcfc
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Aug 10, 2017, 7:24 PM

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All leagues received an invitation to tender to run the new step 6 leagues yesterday. Submissions are required by the 18th August.



The FA are likely going to make a decision on who runs the new step 6 leagues sometime in September. But can't be any more specific than that. I've been told that the new leagues are definitely going to happen & will start next season.


windydcfc
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Aug 10, 2017, 7:54 PM

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Yes it could work out that way but if thats what the FA are going to do thats up to them.
I don't see that the ECL needed to mess about thinking about that this season.
The FA new this was going to happen. So a 1/3rd of the ECL Prem might be relegated. Why didn't they allow Saffron Walden to move to the ESL? Why didn't they run Div1 with 24 clubs, knowing full well that they were creating regionalized divisions. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't the FA reprieve some clubs from relegation in the ECL?



Yes it is strange.
But all i am saying is that it was not up to the ECL to look ahead.



Only 1 club was relegated from the ECL Prem & it was the FA's decision. The ECL agrees that it will cause problems at the end of the season.


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Aug 10, 2017, 8:11 PM)


Tivvyultras
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Aug 10, 2017, 9:58 PM

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this restructuring cant come soon enough we have the furthest to travel this season 3770 miles in what is ment to be regional leauges the furthest we go is to Kings Lynn a 538 mile round trip the shortest is to Dorchester a 134 mile round trip. would the FA move Kings Lynn into the NPL to reduce the miles travelled or create a more westerly leagues at SLP level?



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windydcfc
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Aug 11, 2017, 7:19 AM

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this restructuring cant come soon enough we have the furthest to travel this season 3770 miles in what is ment to be regional leauges the furthest we go is to Kings Lynn a 538 mile round trip the shortest is to Dorchester a 134 mile round trip. would the FA move Kings Lynn into the NPL to reduce the miles travelled or create a more westerly leagues at SLP level?



Kings Lynn Town will almost certainly be moved to the Midlands league. I'd imagine that the SLP won't venture north of the Hellenic league area after this season.


windydcfc
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Aug 12, 2017, 2:01 PM

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Gary Langley interviews Paul Lawler(NWCL chairman)on the Counties podcast & they discuss the league restructuring(I think it's after 40mins on the podcast). He said that there'll probably be no relegations from there step 6 league. I've also been told that the FA will consider all teams for promotion, that achieve a top 5 position at step 7 & achieve a G Grade. They must be in the area that is having new step 6 leagues created. https://t.co/aj4OZVXdI3?amp=1


pokal02
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Aug 16, 2017, 3:34 PM

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Have just picked up on the line, 'clubs have until the start of the season to present mitigating circumstance why they should not be promoted'.

Presumably that means any affected clubs will now have done so.

Are we likely to learn who has applied for 'non-promotion' and if/when they are accepted/refused. Have clubs previously taking voluntary relegation fron Step 4 or refusing promotion from Step 5 (Rainworth, Daventry, London Colney?) applied or just assumed they won't finish in a promorion position.


London Harrier
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Aug 17, 2017, 12:22 PM

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Have just picked up on the line, 'clubs have until the start of the season to present mitigating circumstance why they should not be promoted'.

Presumably that means any affected clubs will now have done so.

Are we likely to learn who has applied for 'non-promotion' and if/when they are accepted/refused. Have clubs previously taking voluntary relegation fron Step 4 or refusing promotion from Step 5 (Rainworth, Daventry, London Colney?) applied or just assumed they won't finish in a promorion position.


Do the FA have an idea of what does and doesn’t constitute a mitigating circumstance?

If we use Step 5 as an example, there are a number of reasons why clubs might not want to take promotion:

1. Loss of local derbies
2. Increased travel time
3. Increased travel costs
4. Loss of players who can’t (or won’t) commit to extra travel time.
5. Ground not up to Grade D (Step 4)

The first four might harshly be considered ‘tough luck’. The fifth however fails regulatory compliance.

It seems rather self-defeating to have a stringent ground grading system in place and then force promotion on a club that doesn’t meet the criteria. I know there’s a grace period but what use is that if the club doesn’t have the funds to make improvements?



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windydcfc
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Aug 17, 2017, 12:59 PM

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Have just picked up on the line, 'clubs have until the start of the season to present mitigating circumstance why they should not be promoted'.

Presumably that means any affected clubs will now have done so.

Are we likely to learn who has applied for 'non-promotion' and if/when they are accepted/refused. Have clubs previously taking voluntary relegation fron Step 4 or refusing promotion from Step 5 (Rainworth, Daventry, London Colney?) applied or just assumed they won't finish in a promorion position.


Do the FA have an idea of what does and doesn’t constitute a mitigating circumstance?

If we use Step 5 as an example, there are a number of reasons why clubs might not want to take promotion:

1. Loss of local derbies
2. Increased travel time
3. Increased travel costs
4. Loss of players who can’t (or won’t) commit to extra travel time.
5. Ground not up to Grade D (Step 4)

The first four might harshly be considered ‘tough luck’. The fifth however fails regulatory compliance.

It seems rather self-defeating to have a stringent ground grading system in place and then force promotion on a club that doesn’t meet the criteria. I know there’s a grace period but what use is that if the club doesn’t have the funds to make improvements?



If you read the Steve Riley(ex-Bishop Auckland manager's) missive to the fans. Posted on the nonleaguezone. He mentions that the clubs were initially informed that the FA were going to cherry pick sides for promotion, as long as they achieved a top 5 position. But this changed to the process we have now. http://nonleaguezone.com/...p?f=23&t=120039I wonder if this scrapping the E Grading & compulsory promotion. Was the only way to guarantee that EBAC NL teams would be promoted? I guess that the FA were toying with several ideas, before they decided to go the way that they have done. The top of the NL seems to have the usual suspects. So it'll be interesting if no teams in & around the top has a sudden drop in form. As the season comes to a close.


windydcfc
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Aug 21, 2017, 7:25 PM

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All leagues received an invitation to tender to run the new step 6 leagues yesterday. Submissions are required by the 18th August.



The ESL have told the FA that they will apply to run the new step 6 league. But the secretary is currently on holiday & they'll submit the application on her return. They've heard that the EOL has spoken about applying to run the new step 6 league.
The ESL are saying the same as the NWCL, in that the FA are leaving it very late for step 7 clubs to make a decision on whether to apply or not. No one has any real idea where these new leagues are going to cover. So certain step 7 Essex sides aren't making firm decisions on whether they're going to apply or not. Until they know the footprint of this new league. The ESL have been aware for 3 seasons that the FA were going to create this new step 6 league. So it's a little bit confusing why the season has already started & no firm decisions have been madeCrazy. A cynic might suggest that the FA has a more important project(like new step 3/4 Midlands leagues)to think about now. So the step 6 side of things are getting rushed along at the endUnimpressed. Everyone that I've spoken with or contacted has said that the restructuring should've been started at the base.


PaulC
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Aug 28, 2017, 1:37 PM

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The figures were not correct, anyway
Changing from 302 to 280 at Step 5, but with 26 promoted, and only 6 relegated from Step 4
I think it is safe to say that there will be at least two who do not last the course (on recent evidence)
But I also think the FA would allow 282 for one season


Pardon my ignorance.

Is there any indication that the 280/282 survivors at Step 5 will be pooled by the FA?


windydcfc
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Aug 28, 2017, 8:15 PM

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The figures were not correct, anyway
Changing from 302 to 280 at Step 5, but with 26 promoted, and only 6 relegated from Step 4
I think it is safe to say that there will be at least two who do not last the course (on recent evidence)
But I also think the FA would allow 282 for one season


Pardon my ignorance.

Is there any indication that the 280/282 survivors at Step 5 will be pooled by the FA?



All step 5 leagues have informed there clubs that it's likely that there's going to be extra relegations. But there could be significant differences on the amount of clubs relegated in each league. No one will be able to say how many clubs will be relegated from each league. Until all games at step 5 have been completed across step 5. So to answer your question, I'd be surprised if there'll be many or even any clubs pooled(laterally transferred). But at step 6, I'd expect there to be numerous clubs laterally transferred. Because of the creation of the the two new step 6 leagues.


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Aug 28, 2017, 8:31 PM)


windydcfc
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Sep 4, 2017, 2:55 PM

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There are 3 leagues applying to run the new step 6 league in the northwest. The leagues footprint will sit between the WMRL & NWCL1.


doktorb berske
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Sep 4, 2017, 4:19 PM

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There are 3 leagues applying to run the new step 6 league in the northwest. The leagues footprint will sit between the WMRL & NWCL1.


Between the West Midlands and nwcl1 is a very large footprint!!



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windydcfc
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Sep 4, 2017, 4:51 PM

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There are 3 leagues applying to run the new step 6 league in the northwest. The leagues footprint will sit between the WMRL & NWCL1.


Between the West Midlands and nwcl1 is a very large footprint!!



I've been told that it'll be south of the M62.


TomRoystonCrow
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Sep 4, 2017, 5:46 PM

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Looking at it I would swap Wingate & Finchley and Walton Casuals around. Histon are missing from the list, Worcester City are in Central Football League One and Midland Premier League and are Coggeshall Town going to deny promotion this season? Looking forward to the 2018/19 Non League Projections Thread in October as well.


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2017, 9:37 PM

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I'm interested in seeing what will happen to the N/S distribution of clubs in the brave new world the FA is creating. Of course, they've missed the open goal of promoting en bloc 10 or so NL teams to redress the current gross imbalance at Steps 3 and 4..

I've tried to mathematically model what would happen to the N/S composition of clubs in Steps 1-4 had there been no change to the format of each step and with the changes.

The county borders on the line of the Severn/Wash are my N/S boundaries

At the moment at Step 5 there are 14 promotion spots split 4.9 North and 9.1 South (UCL is largely North). This, however, has been balanced by the additional relegation places in the IL so in fact the relegation spots from Step 4 are, on average, 4.5 North and 9.5 South. All this will presumably change now that all 7 Step 5 divisions will be of 20 clubs - the concession of bigger leagues in IL Step 4 in return for additional relegation places has been removed.

In future then, if there are 14 relegation/promotion spots between Steps 4/5 there will remain on average 4.9 North promotions and 9.1 South promotions, but relegations from the North will increase from 4.5 to 5.1 and relegations from the South will fall from 9.5 to 8.9

At Step 3 there will be just over 1.5 division of Northern clubs and just under 2.5 divisions of Southern clubs. At Step 4 there will be about 2.5 divisions of Northern clubs and 4.5 divisions of Southern clubs.

The changes will slightly aggravate the imbalance rather than improve it.



windydcfc
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Sep 5, 2017, 8:43 AM

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I'm interested in seeing what will happen to the N/S distribution of clubs in the brave new world the FA is creating. Of course, they've missed the open goal of promoting en bloc 10 or so NL teams to redress the current gross imbalance at Steps 3 and 4..

I've tried to mathematically model what would happen to the N/S composition of clubs in Steps 1-4 had there been no change to the format of each step and with the changes.

The county borders on the line of the Severn/Wash are my N/S boundaries

At the moment at Step 5 there are 14 promotion spots split 4.9 North and 9.1 South (UCL is largely North). This, however, has been balanced by the additional relegation places in the IL so in fact the relegation spots from Step 4 are, on average, 4.5 North and 9.5 South. All this will presumably change now that all 7 Step 5 divisions will be of 20 clubs - the concession of bigger leagues in IL Step 4 in return for additional relegation places has been removed.

In future then, if there are 14 relegation/promotion spots between Steps 4/5 there will remain on average 4.9 North promotions and 9.1 South promotions, but relegations from the North will increase from 4.5 to 5.1 and relegations from the South will fall from 9.5 to 8.9

At Step 3 there will be just over 1.5 division of Northern clubs and just under 2.5 divisions of Southern clubs. At Step 4 there will be about 2.5 divisions of Northern clubs and 4.5 divisions of Southern clubs.

The changes will slightly aggravate the imbalance rather than improve it.



This is excellent & is exactly what the FA should be looking at. I like to know what DrBlues thinks & if he knows whether this has been discussed by the FA?


Brightside
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Sep 5, 2017, 8:52 AM

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Re: [PaulC] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Using your north/south divide is there not a significantly higher population and number of clubs in the South than the North?
I don't know the figures but surely that should play a part.


wazzafan
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Sep 5, 2017, 9:55 AM

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Thank you so much for spotting my errors! Always good to have a second pair of eyes! I've updated the errors.



Non League Projections - 2018/19: http://goo.gl/MW6EFU

Step 1: http://goo.gl/UTHzqq
Step 2: http://goo.gl/oRDNEd
Step 3: http://goo.gl/HDFmG2
Step 4: http://goo.gl/V2YxhA
Step 5: http://goo.gl/RSUfK7
Step 6: http://goo.gl/cwVvN9


windydcfc
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Sep 5, 2017, 10:08 AM

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Using your north/south divide is there not a significantly higher population and number of clubs in the South than the North?
I don't know the figures but surely that should play a part.



There's about 53 million people living in England. Around abrout 29.5 million live below the Wash/Severn line. This includes the East region which covers areas like Peterborough & Northamptonshire. So the line could go south of this area & like Paul mentioned include the UCL. This evens up the difference & yet there are five step 5 leagues above this line & nine below?


Brightside
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Sep 5, 2017, 11:49 AM

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I'm sure that it's been discussed in great detail but 2 additional step 5 leagues would help with the imbalance 7/9 whilst also reducing the footprints.

It seems the FA's approach is top down but the 8th step 4 league is expected.

I'm interested to see the midland league's footprint.


acmold
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Sep 5, 2017, 11:57 AM

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Using your north/south divide is there not a significantly higher population and number of clubs in the South than the North?
I don't know the figures but surely that should play a part.



There's about 53 million people living in England. Around abrout 29.5 million live below the Wash/Severn line. This includes the East region which covers areas like Peterborough & Northamptonshire. So the line could go south of this area & like Paul mentioned include the UCL. This evens up the difference & yet there are five step 5 leagues above this line & nine below?


Peterborough comes under Cambridgeshire so is in the East Region and the South but Northamptonshire comes under the East Midlands and the North


windydcfc
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Sep 5, 2017, 12:04 PM

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I'm sure that it's been discussed in great detail but 2 additional step 5 leagues would help with the imbalance 7/9 whilst also reducing the footprints.

It seems the FA's approach is top down but the 8th step 4 league is expected.

I'm interested to see the midland league's footprint.



If the FA doesn't resolve the North/South disparity at step 5. Then I can't see where they are going to place the 8th step 4 league. Making the EBAC NL1 a step 4 has been mentioned. But how could you sustain this? Because you wouldn't have a step 5 league below it. In an ideal pyramid, each step 4 league should have 2 step 5 leagues promoting into it.


Richard Rundle
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Sep 5, 2017, 1:21 PM

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If the FA doesn't resolve the North/South disparity at step 5. Then I can't see where they are going to place the 8th step 4 league.



You don't need to place it anywhere (and certainly not at this stage, and that's if it ever needed at all). When you've got your 160 Step 4 clubs, divide them into 8 equal groups based on least overall travelling. Don't worry about where the boundary lines lie too much as they will slide around from season to season. Don't worry about their relationships to Step 5 divisions as the clubs coming up and down will be pooled anyway.


jrev61
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Sep 5, 2017, 1:28 PM

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Using your north/south divide is there not a significantly higher population and number of clubs in the South than the North?
I don't know the figures but surely that should play a part.



There's about 53 million people living in England. Around abrout 29.5 million live below the Wash/Severn line. This includes the East region which covers areas like Peterborough & Northamptonshire. So the line could go south of this area & like Paul mentioned include the UCL. This evens up the difference & yet there are five step 5 leagues above this line & nine below?


Peterborough comes under Cambridgeshire so is in the East Region and the South but Northamptonshire comes under the East Midlands and the North


What about Peterborough teams that are members of the Northants FA ?

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