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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19

 

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alderman friend
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May 18, 2017, 2:47 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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there is no a midland team will be I the isthmian league there are enough teams in thesouth east of England E G Essex,london, kent,surray ,sussex and parts of beds,bucks. herts andmaybe hants to get 82 teams in the 4 divisions.


The new step4 division isn't for the south east of England though!


Why is this point being continually missed.
The new leagues could be administered by a group of people in Kent. It would not mean it was for Kent clubs.
The new leagues could have been run by any of the 21 step 1-6 leagues thats why they were all asked.

but the isthmian league will not be running that the southern leaguewill


Unicorn
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May 18, 2017, 2:54 PM

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Post #577 of 895 (8123 views)
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Re: [alderman friend] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It does not matter who runs anything.
As long as the division is reasonably geographically sensible.
Its totally irrelevant.
In this technological age you could run one of these leagues from Los Angeles.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on May 18, 2017, 5:21 PM)


aicwhu
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May 18, 2017, 5:27 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well said Unicorn

I simply can not understand why people get hung up on names

The existing clubs have to fit in the structure somewhere
By putting extra leagues higher up (whatever you call them and whoever runs them) you achieve the objective of making the pyramid flatter and reducing travel overall

andrew c


Tim
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May 18, 2017, 6:00 PM

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The existing clubs have to fit in the structure somewhere
By putting extra leagues higher up (whatever you call them and whoever runs them) you achieve the objective of making the pyramid flatter and reducing travel overall

andrew c


But all this is to the detriment of the leagues below step 4. If I have understood this correctly, 20 teams will be pushed upwards next season, followed by 20 more when the new Step 4 division is added. Step 5 will therefore be missing the best 40 teams, with a consequent weakening of those leagues, and a knock on effect further down the pyramid. By the time this knock on effect reaches Step 7, some county leagues may struggle to continue. All this latest restructuring will do is add to the damage done in 2004.

The pyramid doesn't always work. What goes up doesn't often come down. The Western League has promoted 16 teams since 1992 - only Clevedon Town and Bridgwater Town have come back, and in consequence the standard of football in this and other Step 5 leagues is lamentable in comparison to earlier times.

Yes, travelling will be reduced, but, in some areas, for example the south west, not significantly. Can't see it making a huge difference myself....

As an alternative, get rid of Step 2, move those teams downwards and things just might improve. I do know it's about as likely as a Labour government, by the way....


windydcfc
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May 18, 2017, 6:09 PM

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The existing clubs have to fit in the structure somewhere
By putting extra leagues higher up (whatever you call them and whoever runs them) you achieve the objective of making the pyramid flatter and reducing travel overall

andrew c


But all this is to the detriment of the leagues below step 4. If I have understood this correctly, 20 teams will be pushed upwards next season, followed by 20 more when the new Step 4 division is added. Step 5 will therefore be missing the best 40 teams, with a consequent weakening of those leagues, and a knock on effect further down the pyramid. By the time this knock on effect reaches Step 7, some county leagues may struggle to continue. All this latest restructuring will do is add to the damage done in 2004.

The pyramid doesn't always work. What goes up doesn't often come down. The Western League has promoted 16 teams since 1992 - only Clevedon Town and Bridgwater Town have come back, and in consequence the standard of football in this and other Step 5 leagues is lamentable in comparison to earlier times.

Yes, travelling will be reduced, but, in some areas, for example the south west, not significantly. Can't see it making a huge difference myself....

As an alternative, get rid of Step 2, move those teams downwards and things just might improve. I do know it's about as likely as a Labour government, by the way....



With the FA reducing step 5/6 down to 20 clubs per league. Then I don't think there's going to be many, if any extra clubs taken from step 7.


Tim
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May 18, 2017, 6:20 PM

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With the FA reducing step 5/6 down to 20 clubs per league. Then I don't think there's going to be many, if any extra clubs taken from step 7.


The Hellenic League Premier Division currently has 18 teams, the Western League Premier Division has 20. The Wiltshire League ended the season with 14 clubs. There are problems ahead in this part of the world....


aicwhu
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May 18, 2017, 10:01 PM

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Re: [Tim] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Actually Tim I agree with you!

I would however achieve the same by getting rid of step 1 or even step 1 and 2 and regionalise FL2

But that won't happen so maybe step 6 and 7 should merge ; certainly somewhere we need to reduce the number of steps

However the latest move is an improvement and will not I think be the last

andrew c


oftenscore6
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The Northern League want less travelling at steps 3 & 4. I don't think they want a one off promotion of 6, 8, 10 , 12 of their clubs. I not sure if they would accept step 4 status if it meant losing Vase entry which I think they look at as an Amateur Cup substitute. If the NPL is split East / West as they would like the travelling is going to be to far due to lack of teams in the far north. The answer to blame the South East is a Red Herring as the drift is party down to them not promoting and partly to the NWC and NCE still more or less having the same footprints as in 1982 when they were step 3 leagues. Is there an answer? .

It's pooling that's to blame. Fix the boundaries and there'll be no drift ever.



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ladderman
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May 22, 2017, 8:53 PM

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Re: [windydcfc] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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With the FA reducing step 5/6 down to 20 clubs per league. Then I don't think there's going to be many, if any extra clubs taken from step 7.


No. I haven't got time to go through all the step 5/6 divisions and count, but a 1-2-4-8 NLS needs 40 extra clubs even if step 4 does stay at 20 clubs, they're going to need to move clubs up from step 7. Even more so if they go for 1-2-4-8-16.
Even 1-2-4-7 has far too many clubs playing above the level they should be.


windydcfc
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With the FA reducing step 5/6 down to 20 clubs per league. Then I don't think there's going to be many, if any extra clubs taken from step 7.


No. I haven't got time to go through all the step 5/6 divisions and count, but a 1-2-4-8 NLS needs 40 extra clubs even if step 4 does stay at 20 clubs, they're going to need to move clubs up from step 7. Even more so if they go for 1-2-4-8-16.
Even 1-2-4-7 has far too many clubs playing above the level they should be.



I agree. Personally I think the NL & EFL2 should merge & regionalise North/South. Then have 4 leagues below them two leagues. This would reduce the number of clubs & would make more sense. But it's never going to happen. But I think the FA will push through this restructuring & then plan for a 1-2-4-8-16 pyramid down the line.


derekn
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May 23, 2017, 11:43 AM

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Re: [oftenscore6] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But then you'd get teams finishing out of the relegation places being relegated just to maintain numbers. Swings and roundabouts,


Richard Rundle
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May 23, 2017, 6:01 PM

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But then you'd get teams finishing out of the relegation places being relegated just to maintain numbers. Swings and roundabouts,


Not really, if you have flexible numbers in divisions.


Brightside
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May 23, 2017, 6:15 PM

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But then you'd get teams finishing out of the relegation places being relegated just to maintain numbers. Swings and roundabouts,


Not really, if you have flexible numbers in divisions.


How flexible would you be numbers wise?
If you're not adjusting who gets promoted or relegated you wouldn't have divisional drift but numbers drift.
I don't think 39 in the Isthmian Prem & 9 in the Southern Prem would be acceptable.


(This post was edited by Brightside on May 23, 2017, 6:24 PM)


Richard Rundle
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May 23, 2017, 6:22 PM

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How flexible would you be numbers wise?
If you're not adjusting who gets promoted or relegated you wouldn't have divisional drift but numbers drift.
I don't think 39 in the Isthmian Prem & 9 in the Southern Prem be acceptable.


You don't have to be that flexible past season 1 - define relegation positions as everything from 19th down (or whatever position it needs to be) and then if you need a reprieve or two that's fine.


derekn
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May 23, 2017, 6:27 PM

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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.


shimtoan
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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.

why not? It works elsewhere


Richard Rundle
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May 23, 2017, 7:17 PM

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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.


Why not? It works now from Step 5 downwards, as far as I know it works in Rugby Union and in other countries football pyramids too.


MrTangerineMan
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Re: [Richard Rundle] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Don't forget the Ground Gradings as well!


doktorb berske
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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.

why not? It works elsewhere

Where does it work specifically?



I count as a groundhop whatever I feel appropriate.

Reserves? Yes, why not?
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shimtoan
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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.

why not? It works elsewhere

Where does it work specifically?

Rugby Union, Germany, Japan, Scottish Juniors


oftenscore6
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May 25, 2017, 1:56 PM

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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.

why not? It works elsewhere

Where does it work specifically?

Rugby Union, Germany, Japan, Scottish Juniors

In step 5 and below in the UK too



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Mister TwoU
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That's just not on. You can't reprieve poor teams just because of their geography.

why not? It works elsewhere

Where does it work specifically?

Rugby Union, Germany, Japan, Scottish Juniors


I'm afraid to say it because I don't like the principle either, but this system works spectacularly well in Germany, although it doesn't actually operate in English Rugby Union [follow the travails of Malvern RUFC since about 2010!].

The German system kicks in at level4, the five Regionalligas (RLs). From level3 (3.Liga) relegation combined with the RL playoffs, it becomes possible for any given RL to experience any result from losing one team (where their champion promotes, but no 3.Liga relegatees come back) to gaining three teams (where their champion fails to promote, and three 3.Liga relegatees come back).

The relegation zone system in the RLs must be made flexible enough prior to each season's start to cope with this variability and without impinging upon the promotion system into the RLs.
The RLs usually accept from 2-4(?) promotees from their feeders and league tables must be published to show (i) the least change scenario, where fewest teams require relegation - typically a singleton AND also (ii) the most change scenario, where the most teams require relegation - can be six/seven, easily!

In England, we of course recoil in horror, imagining a seven-place relegation zone; I think we're even somewhat discomfited by the retention of three relegation spots since the Premiership trimmed down to 20 clubs!; however, it's important to remember that these provisions only delineate small certain relegation places, with the rest being only provisional ones and very much subject to the laws of probability which dictate that those 'extreme' relegation events described above are very rare, but not impossible. The same laws of probability suggest strongly that three/four relegations would be the norm, thus indicating a small handful of effectively 'reprieves' in most seasons.

Each RL heads its own immutably bordered geographical area, each containing steadily more divisions down the levels. Any RL dearths or surfeits are thus absorbed in similar fashion within a level or two, mostly being 'watered down' in effect by dint of filtering down into levels with more divisions. Once down at State League level, similar situations can unfold between these also immutably bordered smaller areas, but again they're largely dealt with in exactly same manner.
I'm not completely certain whether that immutable border is completely impervious, as I AM aware that a Bavarian RL team did switch to the South-West RL a few years ago, plus data is as rare as hens' teeth for this kind of enquiry from certainly level6 downward.



Professional cretin.


London Harrier
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Jun 21, 2017, 3:33 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] FA's Proposed Structure of the NLS 2017/18 and 2018/19 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A couple of things to ask here.

1. Is compulsory promotion officially being implemented from Step 5 upwards, or is it still under discussion?
2. It’s an old conversation, but wouldn’t fixed boundaries resolve the issue of drift? Yes, it will mean some feeders running with a different number of clubs, but so what? Is it really that much of an issue? Look at the farce that could have been avoided with Bishop’s Stortford FC if the Conference has run with 23/21. Don’t Germany used fixed boundaries in their pyramid with relative success?
3. What, on the whole, do clubs think of the proposals?



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London Harrier
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Jun 22, 2017, 1:58 PM

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The new set-up would be

1. National League
2. National League North, National League South
3. Northern Premier League Premier, Southern League Premier North, Southern League Premier South, Isthmian Premier
4. Northern Premier League One x2, Southern League One x2, Isthmian League x3

Southern League would eventually include teams in Yorkshire.


Is it April 1?


Southern League Northern or better Midland Division.
Yorkshire does seem too much but in a Midland Division a possibility.


If I understand this right, the Southern League will be managing two x Step 3 divisions from 2018/19.

Does this mean the new step 3 league will carry the Southern League name, (e.g. Southern League Premier Division North) or simply that the Southern League administrators will be running it and can call it whatever they like (e.g. Central Counties Premier)

Two subtle but significant differences.



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Unicorn
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Jun 22, 2017, 2:25 PM

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Based on what we have heard in the last few days it will just be called EVO-STIK and then an area.
Southern League and Northern Premier names have given way to the sponsors name totally. Which is understandable because thats why you invest sponsorship money.

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