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Home: Non League Football Information: History:
expunged records

 

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southend statto
First Team Star

May 12, 2017, 9:20 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #1 of 37 (6203 views)
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expunged records Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can anyone help with the records of these clubs, prior to their resignation/expulsion from their leagues?

Southern United - Southern League, Div. 2 - 1906-07

West Hampstead - South Eastern League, Div. 2 - 1906-07

Gravesend Athletic - United League, South Div. - 1908-09

Brentford reserves - South Eastern League, Div. 1 - 1914-15

Thank you


krffji
Youth Team Star

May 12, 2017, 11:00 PM

Posts: 279
Location: Colchester
Team(s): Colchester United

Post #2 of 37 (6167 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are you after match by match or just the summaries?

The online newspapers show Southern United had played and lost 11 at goal difference of 8 - 51 when the FA closed them down while West Hampstead had almost finished their 20 match programme before they were kicked out in late April / early May. There's a league table P 18 W 7 L 11 D 0 F 38 A 52 Pts 14 published in early May.



Always researching Colchester's amateur town clubs "Before the U's" including identifying and compiling brief biogs of all first team players.
Joint author of Colchester United's Who's Who -(Breedon Books 2008).
Colchester United youth team programme editor 2001 - 2017
Colchester United Essex Senior Cup programme editor 2008 - 2018



southend statto
First Team Star

May 13, 2017, 1:30 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #3 of 37 (6062 views)
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Re: [krffji] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

hi Kevin,

needed just their final games played, won, lost etc - as you have given for the Southern and Hampstead clubs - thank you for these.

just needing the Gravesend and Brentford records now - if anyone can help?

oh yes, and a second call for Basildon Town's expunged Parthenon League record for the 1959-60 season - thank you.


John Treleven
Qatar World Cup bid member!

May 13, 2017, 1:37 PM

Posts: 17670
Location: Jersey
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Post #4 of 37 (6059 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

1914-15 South-Eastern League

40 26 06 08 92 33 58 Fulham
40 27 04 09 83 43 58 Bristol City
40 24 07 09 87 48 55 West Ham United
40 21 08 11 87 51 50 Chelsea
40 21 07 12 78 54 49 Queen's Park Rangers
40 21 05 14 71 52 47 Woolwich Arsenal
40 20 05 15 82 74 45 Southampton
40 16 12 12 71 49 44 Norwich City
40 21 02 17 73 65 44 Portsmouth
40 16 09 15 75 76 41 Cardiff City
40 15 09 16 60 56 39 Tottenham Hotspur
40 16 04 20 63 68 36 Southend United
40 13 10 17 53 65 36 Clapton Orient
40 13 07 20 64 80 33 Brighton & Hove Albion
40 12 09 19 50 102 33 Gillingham
40 11 09 20 60 70 31 Watford
40 10 11 19 49 73 31 Reading
40 12 05 23 75 85 29 Luton Town
40 09 10 21 49 92 28 Swindon Town
40 11 06 23 52 103 28 Croydon Common
40 08 09 23 43 78 25 Boscombe

25 03 04 18 22 88 10 Brentford
withdrew in mid January, record expunged

420 matches
343 wins/losses
77 draws
1417 goals


southend statto
First Team Star

May 13, 2017, 6:11 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #5 of 37 (6020 views)
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Re: [John Treleven] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

great - thank you John.

Gravesend anyone, please? They resigned from The United League in December 1908. The following is taken from the Southend Standard newspaper:

“It is announced that, owing to financial embarrassment, Gravesend Athletic have resigned from the Southern League (Div II), and the United League.
“Southend should have played Gravesend on December 30th (away) and January 16th (home), but owing to Gravesend’s decision, these will not be played.
“The decision of Gravesend, it is stated, was come to at a special meeting of the club, attended by representatives of the Southern League. This is the first season of the Athletic and it has not been all plain sailing with them. They started as the Gravesend Amateurs, but owing to difficulties in keeping up the amateur standard, professionalism was adopted, and the name changed. The first resignation was from the Thames and Medway Combination. The club has now to devote its attention to friendly matches, and the Kent Cup competition.”


(This post was edited by southend statto on May 13, 2017, 6:26 PM)


southend statto
First Team Star

May 13, 2017, 9:55 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #6 of 37 (5944 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

if it helps, anyone that comes up with Gravesend's United League record (along with their source), I'll gladly give them free copies of both books the above requests will be included in.

or, of course, the results of New Brompton, Brentford, Hastings & St. Leonards United and Croydon Common's results against Gravesend Amateurs/Athletic.

thank you.


krffji
Youth Team Star

May 14, 2017, 9:22 AM

Posts: 279
Location: Colchester
Team(s): Colchester United

Post #7 of 37 (5886 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Most UL fixtures seemed to have been played in the second half of the season and after the withdrawal of Gravesend Athletic/Amateurs. Without trawling every page of the London Daily News and Sporting Life probably just P 2 L 2 F 1 A 8.

Hastings & St Leonards
Hastings & St Leonards Observer's turn of year review 02/01/1909 shows two games played in UL v Croydon Common & New Brompton with away to Gravesend Ath in scheduled fixtures for that date.
GA did not play either game v Hastings

Croydon Common
Alan Futter's "Who killed Cock Robins?" has comprehensive stats and shows only UL fixture played before turn of year on 23/12/1908, so after GA demise. Both that same source and several newspapers report the scheduled CC v GA UL fixture on 28/10/1908 was cancelled because GA couldn't raise a side and as the book does cover the expunged Southern League game little doubt GA did not play either game v Croydon

Brentford
18/11/08 GA 0 B 2 - noted as first pro game. Report in London Daily News 19/11
01/02/09 B v GA in fixtures for next week in London Daily News of 30/01/09 so looks like only played Brentford once.

New Brompton
14/10/1908 NB 6 GA 1 - result in Sporting Life 15/10/08
No trace of return game

Southend
Can't find any mention.



Always researching Colchester's amateur town clubs "Before the U's" including identifying and compiling brief biogs of all first team players.
Joint author of Colchester United's Who's Who -(Breedon Books 2008).
Colchester United youth team programme editor 2001 - 2017
Colchester United Essex Senior Cup programme editor 2008 - 2018



southend statto
First Team Star

May 14, 2017, 11:00 AM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #8 of 37 (5858 views)
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Re: [krffji] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

thank you very much - no, Southend were not down to play them until after they resigned. so, one game played as Amateurs, and one as Athletic.

let me know if you'd like the books. all the best


New Forest
Youth Team Sub


May 15, 2017, 4:33 PM

Posts: 111
Location: Aldershot
Team(s): Leyton then Waltham Forest now Walthamstow

Post #9 of 37 (5658 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As Leyton used to meet Southend United in the Southern League, were you interested in their record in 1914/5? Not only did Leyton drop out they were followed by Mardy and Abertillery. That mind of information Wikipedia have both Mardy and Abertillery as having resigning at the end of the previous season. Would be interesting to see how many other leagues suffered three or more defections in one season.


southend statto
First Team Star

May 15, 2017, 7:18 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #10 of 37 (5611 views)
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Re: [New Forest] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

info would be very welcome, thank you.

not read - or missed it! - in my local paper - so if you have a final pl w d l f a pts for all three, that would be great - and asl, if I'm not asking too much - did any of these three sides play Southend?


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

May 15, 2017, 9:18 PM

Posts: 8469
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Post #11 of 37 (5590 views)
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Re: [New Forest] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Would be interesting to see how many other leagues suffered three or more defections in one season.


It's not that uncommon. Even this season we've got a couple with four - Essex & Suffolk Border League Premier Division and the Warrington & District League Division One.


New Forest
Youth Team Sub


May 16, 2017, 3:45 PM

Posts: 111
Location: Aldershot
Team(s): Leyton then Waltham Forest now Walthamstow

Post #12 of 37 (5459 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
info would be very welcome, thank you.

not read - or missed it! - in my local paper - so if you have a final pl w d l f a pts for all three, that would be great - and asl, if I'm not asking too much - did any of these three sides play Southend?
This was the position when Leyton were suspended from the Southern League

1914/15 Leyton Southern League Division II

Pl W D L F A Pts

1 Stoke 8 6 0 2 15 6 12
2 Staylybridge Celtic 8 5 1 2 18 11 11
3 Swansea Town 7 5 0 2 24 8 10
4 Merthyr Town 6 5 0 1 17 7 10
5 Brentford 7 4 2 1 12 6 10
6 Mardy 7 4 0 3 13 9 8
7 Llanelly 6 4 0 2 12 6 8
8 Newport County 7 3 1 3 12 8 7
9 Ponytpridd 8 2 2 4 17 22 6
10 Barry 5 2 1 2 5 4 5
11 Ton Pentre 6 1 3 1 6 11 5
12 Mid Rhondda 5 1 2 2 4 4 4
13 Coventry City 5 1 0 4 6 12 2
14 Ebbw Vale 6 1 0 5 7 18 2
15 Leyton 6 1 0 5 5 24 2
16 Abertillery 5 0 0 0 2 20 0


This was the state of the league when Leyton were suspended having failed to turn up for their next match. The previous season Leyton had been in the South Essex League and only re-entered the professional ranks for 1914/5 when they learnt that the Osborne Road Ground would be empty due to WWI. At some point Mardy and Abertillery also withdrew from the league.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

May 16, 2017, 6:05 PM

Posts: 8469
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Post #13 of 37 (5424 views)
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Re: [krffji] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Are you after match by match or just the summaries?

The online newspapers show Southern United had played and lost 11 at goal difference of 8 - 51 when the FA closed them down while West Hampstead had almost finished their 20 match programme before they were kicked out in late April / early May. There's a league table P 18 W 7 L 11 D 0 F 38 A 52 Pts 14 published in early May.


The Southern League centenary book says that Southern United lasted just one season in the Southern League (i.e. 1905-06) and they failed to fulfill their London League fixtures in 1906-07, failing to mention any Southern League involvement in the latter season.


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

May 16, 2017, 6:37 PM

Posts: 7635
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #14 of 37 (5411 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In case you want Mardy and Abertillery:

Mardy
Coventry Evening Telegraph Mon 14/11/1914 has record P8 W4 L4 F14 A9 Pts8

Their resignation is reported in the Portsmouth Evening News four days later

Abertillery
Coventry Herald Fri 19/2/1915 has record P11 W1 L10 F7 A67 Pts2

Their record has been deleted from the table two weeks later (can't see any games played in the interim)



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


southend statto
First Team Star

May 16, 2017, 7:50 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #15 of 37 (5394 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

bit naughty of the SL, omitting Southern United's 1906-07 season.

i've attached my Southend United 1906-07 Southern League results / table
Attachments: Southend United SL 0607.docx (15.6 KB)


southend statto
First Team Star

May 16, 2017, 7:51 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #16 of 37 (5393 views)
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Re: [Ropemaker] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

thank you - but, something's gone wrong here.

New Forest has Mardy at 7-4-0-3-13-9-8
you have Mardy at 8-4-0-4-14-9-8

so we have a problem here.

anyone?

thanks again


(This post was edited by southend statto on May 16, 2017, 8:53 PM)


southend statto
First Team Star

May 16, 2017, 9:07 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #17 of 37 (5365 views)
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Re: [New Forest] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

this table is almost correct! Ton Pentre had played 6 - their losses should read 2. Abertillery's losses should read 5.
this gives a table of played 102, wins 45, draws 12, losses 45, and points 102.
it only fails on goals for and against, which total 175 vs. 176.


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

May 16, 2017, 9:56 PM

Posts: 7635
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #18 of 37 (5351 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry, can't see your table but here's the one from 16 Nov

62 wins 61 losses 9 draws 246 goals for 237 goals against

Hmmm



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Attachments: SLTab.pdf (86.4 KB)


southend statto
First Team Star

May 17, 2017, 8:47 AM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #19 of 37 (5279 views)
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Re: [Ropemaker] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

my post was not clear enough - oops - I meant New Forest's table at post 12


(This post was edited by southend statto on May 17, 2017, 8:48 AM)


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

May 17, 2017, 3:29 PM

Posts: 7635
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #20 of 37 (5204 views)
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In Reply To
thank you - but, something's gone wrong here.

New Forest has Mardy at 7-4-0-3-13-9-8
you have Mardy at 8-4-0-4-14-9-8

so we have a problem here.

anyone?

thanks again

In between the dates of these two tables, Mardy lost 6-0 at Coventry on 31 Oct!

Which doesn't help much I know Crazy



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


markbfc
Junior Team Regular

Jan 18, 2018, 4:16 PM

Posts: 46
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Post #21 of 37 (3852 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Can anyone help with the records of these clubs, prior to their resignation/expulsion from their leagues?

Southern United - Southern League, Div. 2 - 1906-07

West Hampstead - South Eastern League, Div. 2 - 1906-07

Gravesend Athletic - United League, South Div. - 1908-09

Brentford reserves - South Eastern League, Div. 1 - 1914-15

Thank you


Late to the party here but I'm sure I have the results somewhere for Brentford. They withdrew because of WW1 and the club's decision to play amateurs wherever possible in the First Team to save money so the reserves were dispensed with.


southend statto
First Team Star

Jan 18, 2018, 7:59 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #22 of 37 (3779 views)
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Re: [markbfc] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

thanks for the offer - if your records match the Bees record at post four, I'll be happy!


John Treleven
Qatar World Cup bid member!

Jan 20, 2018, 7:08 AM

Posts: 17670
Location: Jersey
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Post #23 of 37 (3534 views)
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Re: [southend statto] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Brentford Reserves 1914-15

Trawling through the Middlesex Chronicle gives 24 league matches.

So if my earlier post (# 4) it to be proved correct then there is a missing loss by the unlikely score of 4-12 still to be found.

No league tables were given as they would provide a clue as to the date when the missing match was played.

All their three wins were midweek matches when the team was strengthened by the inclusion of first team players.

Sat 29 Aug 1-6 H Brentford 1st XI (Fr)
Tue 01 Spt 1-6 A Luton Town
Sat 05 Spt no match found
Mon 07 Spt 0-0 H Luton Town
Sat 12 Spt 1-3 H Reading
Mon 14 Spt 1-3 H Brighton & H.A.
Sat 19 Spt 0-1 A Reading
Sat 26 Spt 1-2 H Southampton
Wed 30 Spt 1-1 A Swindon Town
Sat 03 Oct 0-1 A Watford
Mon 05 Oct 1-0 H Queen's Park Rangers
Sat 10 Oct 2-6 H Woolwich Arsenal
Wed 14 Oct 2-1 A Brighton & H.A.
Sat 17 Oct 0-6 A Finchley (Fr)
Sat 24 Oct no match found
Mon 26 Oct 3-1 H Croydon Common
Sat 31 Oct 0-4 A Gillingham
Sat 07 Nov 1-3 H Chelsea
Sat 14 Nov 0-7 A Bristol City
Sat 21 Nov 0-1 H Cardiff City
Mon 23 Nov 0-2 H Clapton Orient
Sat 28 Nov 0-8 A Tottenham Hotspur
Sat 05 Dec 0-5 H Gillingham
Sat 12 Dec 0-5 A Southend United
Sat 19 Dec 1-1 H Swindon Town
Fri 25 Dec 1-5 A Fulham
Sat 26 Dec 1-6 H Fulham
Mon 28 Dec 1-1 H Southend United

Sat 02 Jan H v West Ham United - cancelled
(Brentford have applied to withdraw from the league)

Sat 16 Jan A v West Ham United - cancelled
(Brentford have had their withdrawal accepted and their deposit has been returned to them by the league,
West Ham United will now play the Rest of the South Eastern League on this date)

Matches unplayed (although one of them could still be to find)

H&A v Boscombe, Norwich City, Portsmouth, West Ham United

H v Bristol City, Tottenham Hotspur, Watford

A v Cardiff City, Chelsea, Clapton Orient, Croydon Common, Queen's Park Rangers, Southampton, Woolwich Arsenal


(This post was edited by John Treleven on Jan 20, 2018, 7:14 AM)


southend statto
First Team Star

Jan 20, 2018, 3:08 PM

Posts: 2062
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #24 of 37 (3446 views)
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Re: [John Treleven] expunged records [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

thank you John - much appreciated.

hoping Mark can complete the missing details.


markbfc
Junior Team Regular

Jan 23, 2018, 2:03 PM

Posts: 46
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Post #25 of 37 (3049 views)
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In Reply To
thank you John - much appreciated.

hoping Mark can complete the missing details.


I cannot take credit for this, the list is Paul Briers' research:

1. 01.09.1914 AWAY Luton Town L 1-6 - White.
2. 05.09.1914 HOME Southampton L 1-8 - n/k.
3. 07.09.1914 AWAY Luton Town D 0-0 - .
4. 12.09.1914 HOME Reading L 1-6 - n/k.
5. 14.09.1914 HOME Brighton & HA L 1-3 - n/k.
6. 19.09.1914 AWAY Reading L 0-1 - .
7. 26.09.1914 AWAY Southampton L 1-2 - n/k.
8. 30.09.1914 AWAY Swindon Town D 1-1 - Purver.
9. 03.10.1914 AWAY Watford L 1-2 - n/k.
10. 05.10.1914 HOME QPR W 1-0 - Stonley.
11. 10.10.1914 HOME Arsenal L 2-6 - Matthews, Jackson.
12. 12.10.1914 AWAY Brighton & HA W 2-1 - Stonley 2.
13. 17.10.1914 AWAY Finchley (Friendly) L 0-6 - .
14. 26.10.1914 HOME Croydon Common W 3-1 - Mayo 2, Johnson.
15. 31.10.1914 AWAY Gillingham L 0-4 - .
16. 07.11.1914 HOME Chelsea L 1-3 - Martin.
17. 14.11.1914 AWAY Bristol City L 0-7 - .
18. 21.11.1914 HOME Cardiff City L 0-1 - .
19. 23.11.1914 HOME Clapton Orient L 0-2 - .
20. 28.11.1914 AWAY Tottenham Hotspur L 0-8 - .
21. 05.12.1914 HOME Gillingham L 0-5 - .
22. 07.12.1914 AWAY Clapton Orient L 0-2 - .
23. 12.12.1914 AWAY Southend United L 0-5 - .
24. 19.12.1914 HOME Swindon Town D 1-1 - n/k.
25. 26.12.1914 HOME Fulham L 1-6 - Price
26. 28.12.1914 HOME Southend United D 1-1 - n/k.

N.B I see John's excellent research has extra games to this list.


(This post was edited by markbfc on Jan 23, 2018, 2:12 PM)

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