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Shock General Election Called

 

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Fanatic
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Apr 21, 2017, 3:57 PM

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Post #176 of 998 (1230 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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- abolish inheritance tax. You've paid tax once on your income, why pay it again?

Because you're not paying again, someone else is who is inheriting wealth they didn't earn..


Why should my children pay tax on money i have chosen to leave to them?


Because the politics of bitterness and envy mean that no-one can depart this mortal coil in surplus. It must instead be given to the state, which obviously knows best how to handle the fruits of your labours. Even if doing so causes your nearest and dearest, who you've worked all your life to support, a substantial drop in their standard of living once you've popped it.


It's not bitterness and envy though, it's about wanting a more equal society. Inheritance leads to increased concentrations of wealth, which is very bad for society.

It's depressing that people assume these sorts of opinions are motivated by bitterness and envy. I grew up in a poor household but have done reasonably well for myself. I am not a top rate taxpayer, but I earn more than enough money to live the life I want, so I have no envy of those earning more. I want to see people poorer than myself supported better by society, and this involves some wealth distribution, which I would be happy to be a part of as well.


paulh66
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Apr 21, 2017, 4:13 PM

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Post #177 of 998 (1218 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A fair bit of it is bitterness and envy - ideology fuelled by a hatred of the uber rich which merely results in ideas which penalise too many ordinary hard working families. It's little wonder that such ideology is repeatedly rejected at the ballot box.

As for equal society, it depends what you mean. Opportunity for everyone to get a decent education that'll enable them, if they work hard, to live a life comfortably above the breadline - absolutely yes. Everybody pay a fair share to support those who are incapable, for reasons beyond their own making, of getting themselves above the breadline - again, yes. Equality of outcome, regardless of how talented or hardworking you are - no way.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Apr 21, 2017, 4:14 PM)


steveking
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Apr 21, 2017, 4:20 PM

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Post #178 of 998 (1210 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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As for equal society, it depends what you mean. Opportunity for everyone to get a decent education that'll enable them, if they work hard, to live a life comfortably above the breadline - absolutely yes. Everybody pay a fair share to support those who are incapable for reasons beyond their own making of getting themselves above the breadline - again, yes. Equality of outcome, regardless of how talented or hardworking you are - no way.

I wouldn't argue with a lot of that though paying a fair share would seem to indicate an acceptance of taxing people so why not include a degree of inheritance tax - or have I assumed too much.

I also agree that you can't get equality of outcome, that is if you're expressing outcome purely in material things. It's just that there are other things than material wealth and the constant search for material wealth, especially when it is a hopeless pursuit, can make a lot of people unhappy.


paulh66
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Apr 21, 2017, 4:34 PM

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Post #179 of 998 (1200 views)
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Re: [steveking] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Of course there's an acceptance of taxing people....nobody (of sound mind) argues against the existence of a tax regime! But there's a world of difference between "a degree of inheritance tax" and 100% IHT (with, presumably, no threshold), though frankly I've never been entirely comfortable with the concept of IHT anyway.

If you want to get at a big chunk of the capitalist fat cats' wealth, why not make them do with it what they've shown they can do best - deploy it in business and the economy rather than tax it? That'll open up more opportunities for the average working man than simply increasing the size of the 'tax pot' available for state handouts.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Apr 21, 2017, 4:40 PM)


Fanatic
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Apr 21, 2017, 4:55 PM

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Post #180 of 998 (1185 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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If you want to get at a big chunk of the capitalist fat cats' wealth, why not make them do with it what they've shown they can do best - deploy it in business and the economy rather than tax it? That'll open up more opportunities for the average working man than simply increasing the size of the 'tax pot' available for state handouts.


I think that's not done because it doesn't really work. They just tend to put it offshore instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/...l-economy-tax-havens


paulh66
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Apr 21, 2017, 4:59 PM

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Post #181 of 998 (1182 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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If you want to get at a big chunk of the capitalist fat cats' wealth, why not make them do with it what they've shown they can do best - deploy it in business and the economy rather than tax it? That'll open up more opportunities for the average working man than simply increasing the size of the 'tax pot' available for state handouts.


I think that's not done because it doesn't really work. They just tend to put it offshore instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/...l-economy-tax-havens


Then just change the rules - you'd have to anyway if you wanted to tax it.


garethwrexy
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Apr 21, 2017, 5:15 PM

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Post #182 of 998 (1173 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's not true



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


steveking
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Apr 21, 2017, 5:23 PM

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Post #183 of 998 (1166 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
If you want to get at a big chunk of the capitalist fat cats' wealth, why not make them do with it what they've shown they can do best - deploy it in business and the economy rather than tax it? That'll open up more opportunities for the average working man than simply increasing the size of the 'tax pot' available for state handouts.


I think that's not done because it doesn't really work. They just tend to put it offshore instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/...l-economy-tax-havens


Then just change the rules - you'd have to anyway if you wanted to tax it.

So many things to consider. Firstly it will be a tax however it is collected or spent. How it can go back into developing the econmoy is another issue. The "donor" is dead so there's no expert view on how it should be deployed. Whoever does have that repsonsibility will be a government department or quasi government body which fact will immediately cause the whole process to be derided.

I'm not after skinning fat cats anyway, only that everyone who benefits from everything an organised society has to offer should be ready to pay for it. That's taxation (income, inheritance, corporation... whatever) but unfortunately since the 1980s we've all be fed the idea that taxation is a bad thing.

As far as inheritance tax is concerned my view is that I have a special responsibility for my children to make sure they are decent and productive members of society. Beyond that I shouldn't kid myself that they are more special than anyoneelse's children.

As I have said, in an ideal world everyone would start from scratch like I, Fanatic and many, many others have. But in the practical world I do find myself thinking "why should my children have to do that when others will have a helping hand?".

So I will leave them a share of my "wealth" but I (and they) will perfectly understand that some of that wealth will be taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

And just to make a point (and not start an argument) I do use the word "society" or maybe "community" where others refer to the state. I feel the word "state" is used by the right to make it seem something remote and reminiscent of the old communist bloc. The state is us and we should be prepared to look after our whole community. It takes money and the money comes through taxation, there's nothing wrong with paying taxes including inheritance tax.


Ronsdog
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Apr 21, 2017, 6:34 PM

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Post #184 of 998 (1121 views)
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Re: [steveking] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If you want to get at a big chunk of the capitalist fat cats' wealth, why not make them do with it what they've shown they can do best - deploy it in business and the economy rather than tax it? That'll open up more opportunities for the average working man than simply increasing the size of the 'tax pot' available for state handouts.


I think that's not done because it doesn't really work. They just tend to put it offshore instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/...l-economy-tax-havens


Then just change the rules - you'd have to anyway if you wanted to tax it.

So many things to consider. Firstly it will be a tax however it is collected or spent. How it can go back into developing the econmoy is another issue. The "donor" is dead so there's no expert view on how it should be deployed. Whoever does have that repsonsibility will be a government department or quasi government body which fact will immediately cause the whole process to be derided.

I'm not after skinning fat cats anyway, only that everyone who benefits from everything an organised society has to offer should be ready to pay for it. That's taxation (income, inheritance, corporation... whatever) but unfortunately since the 1980s we've all be fed the idea that taxation is a bad thing.

As far as inheritance tax is concerned my view is that I have a special responsibility for my children to make sure they are decent and productive members of society. Beyond that I shouldn't kid myself that they are more special than anyoneelse's children.

As I have said, in an ideal world everyone would start from scratch like I, Fanatic and many, many others have. But in the practical world I do find myself thinking "why should my children have to do that when others will have a helping hand?".

So I will leave them a share of my "wealth" but I (and they) will perfectly understand that some of that wealth will be taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

And just to make a point (and not start an argument) I do use the word "society" or maybe "community" where others refer to the state. I feel the word "state" is used by the right to make it seem something remote and reminiscent of the old communist bloc. The state is us and we should be prepared to look after our whole community. It takes money and the money comes through taxation, there's nothing wrong with paying taxes including inheritance tax.



What is clear from the above is that we need a complete overhaul of our taxation system.

I have long argued for a replacement of income tax on earned income, with an appropriate level of property and landholding (wealth) tax and a return to taxing luxury goods at a far higher rate than the current 20% VAT. In short a tax on spending. Its far too radical for any political party to take on board currently, which just goes to show how our leaders lack a long term vision.

Our current taxation system is not fit for purpose as it penalises the many in favour of the few.

What I find illogical is that we persist with 18th Century taxation rules that merely encourage those that can, to cheat the system.
Similarly with IHT, it discourages thrift and endeavour, and encourages complex tax avoidance systems.

My vote would always go to any politician that agrees to abolish taxes on earned income and replace them with appropriate wealth taxes. It would be a fairer system in my opinion.


PaulC
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Apr 21, 2017, 6:48 PM

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Post #185 of 998 (1110 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sock it to 'em, Theresa. She knows how to woo a handpicked audience. The Prime Minister-in-hiding has emerged from the bunker.




garethwrexy
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Apr 21, 2017, 6:55 PM

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Post #186 of 998 (1107 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

She is great leader



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


paulh66
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:01 PM

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Post #187 of 998 (1100 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Do I detect a little bitterness or envy? Tongue


Ronsdog
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:09 PM

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Post #188 of 998 (1097 views)
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She is great leader


Does that make Comrade Corbyn with his tax and spend policies the......DEAR LEADER?


PaulC
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:12 PM

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Post #189 of 998 (1095 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Do I detect a little bitterness or envy? Tongue


Laughter at the dud of a Prime Minister-in-hiding that we have. Scared s***less about meeting a real human being who has not been screened and vetted.

Terrified that if she had to debate or answer questions she would be shown for what she is. A flip-flopper and one who is unable to defend the Tories or their policies

Mrs May's election diary

Tues: - Banned debate
Wed Banned public from my event
Thur Banned press from my event
Fri Banned factory workers from talking


PaulC
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:16 PM

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Post #190 of 998 (1091 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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She is great leader


Does that make Comrade Corbyn with his tax and spend policies the......DEAR LEADER?


LOL

In the last 7 years the Tory Govt has borrowed more than Labour Govts have done throughout ithe party's history.

Through history, Labour borrows less and repays more than the Tories.

Despite what the scum Tory press might tell you, the Tories are the party of fiscal mismanagement.


PaulC
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:17 PM

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Post #191 of 998 (1088 views)
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She is great leader


So is Kim Jong-un.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:43 PM

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Post #192 of 998 (1070 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Which constituency is he standing in then?


Ronsdog
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:47 PM

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Post #193 of 998 (1061 views)
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In Reply To

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She is great leader


Does that make Comrade Corbyn with his tax and spend policies the......DEAR LEADER?


LOL

In the last 7 years the Tory Govt has borrowed more than Labour Govts have done throughout ithe party's history.

Through history, Labour borrows less and repays more than the Tories.

Despite what the scum Tory press might tell you, the Tories are the party of fiscal mismanagement.


I knew you were pious but I hadn't realised that you've had a sense of humour bypass too, Paul Crazy


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 21, 2017, 7:50 PM

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Post #194 of 998 (1057 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Then again, why should she put herself forward - we all know how habitually deceitful the media are and even you yourself, Paul, have said that the London/Manchester/Scum media cannot be trusted Wink

I think that most of our minds are already made up with how we will vote - staunch Leavers will vote for the Tories (maybe UKIP although they are fading fast) and staunch Remainers will vote for Labour/Liberals/Greens/Plaid/SNP.

Whatever waffle and piffle comes out, I doubt it will change the minds of the majority of people.


Mr. T
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Apr 21, 2017, 8:04 PM

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Post #195 of 998 (1039 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In your own words: "Try not to get your knickers into such a twist, dear."


PaulC
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Apr 21, 2017, 8:13 PM

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Post #196 of 998 (1029 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Then again, why should she put herself forward - we all know how habitually deceitful the media are and even you yourself, Paul, have said that the London/Manchester/Scum media cannot be trusted Wink

I think that most of our minds are already made up with how we will vote - staunch Leavers will vote for the Tories (maybe UKIP although they are fading fast) and staunch Remainers will vote for Labour/Liberals/Greens/Plaid/SNP.

Whatever waffle and piffle comes out, I doubt it will change the minds of the majority of people.


But the scum media is almost totally pro-Tory, She has little to fear from them. What she fears is the public seeing her for what she is - not the myth created by the Tory media.

How many know May's Head of Comms and Press Officer resigned this week?

How many, who don''t watch Channel 4, know of the extent of the Tory election fraud scandal?

How many know that the Tories' fiscal record is far worse than Labour's?

How many who watched Newsnight's puff piece on May and her husband know he is a senior exec in a 1.4 trillion investment fund?


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 21, 2017, 8:30 PM

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Post #197 of 998 (1017 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Paul, and how many people care?

Whichever one you put in the spotlight, you'll find something dodgy about all of them:

Corbyn - Anti-Semitism & Bullying

Farron - Homophobia

Nuttall - Compulsive Liar

Sturgeon - Condemned by five of Scotland's largest industries over rates hikes in 2016 and the slowing down of the Scottish economy. One of her fiercest critics is David Watt - executive director of the Institute of Directors in Scotland.

Woods - Mrs. Windsor controversy (although that's about it for her)

Granted, the Tories are not perfect and they have increased the deficit, but I doubt that any other party would do differently.

There are people above Mrs. May who pull the strings as well - why not send some ire their way as well?


007Dale
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Apr 21, 2017, 8:47 PM

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Post #198 of 998 (1004 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Then again, why should she put herself forward - we all know how habitually deceitful the media are and even you yourself, Paul, have said that the London/Manchester/Scum media cannot be trusted Wink

I think that most of our minds are already made up with how we will vote - staunch Leavers will vote for the Tories (maybe UKIP although they are fading fast) and staunch Remainers will vote for Labour/Liberals/Greens/Plaid/SNP.

Whatever waffle and piffle comes out, I doubt it will change the minds of the majority of people.


But the scum media is almost totally pro-Tory, She has little to fear from them. What she fears is the public seeing her for what she is - not the myth created by the Tory media.

How many know May's Head of Comms and Press Officer resigned this week?

How many, who don''t watch Channel 4, know of the extent of the Tory election fraud scandal?

How many know that the Tories' fiscal record is far worse than Labour's?

How many who watched Newsnight's puff piece on May and her husband know he is a senior exec in a 1.4 trillion investment fund?


The Sun, and I know I'm right on this one, heavily backed Tony Blair ahead of his three election victories. Now I realise he's not a hard left Union lover that you'd really like, but I seem to remember him being leader of the Labour Party.

So, Fleet Street's biggest newspaper has been both Labour and Tory in the last 20 years.

I think certain newspapers, like The Sun, follow the popular opinion, rather than lead that opinion. They don't want to be on the losing side - just see how different they are in Scotland.

Clearly some of the newspapers have their colours firmly nailed to a political mast, but not all.


MrTangerineMan
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Apr 21, 2017, 9:50 PM

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Post #199 of 998 (977 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Certainly seems that way, whatever Rupert decides goes...

Edit: Would also like to say those that criticise Mrs. May, on the political circuit, had best make sure that they are really paragons of virtue else they fall on their swords.

'There are fascists pretending to be humanitarians like cannibals on a health kick eating only vegetarians'. (Roger McGough)


(This post was edited by MrTangerineMan on Apr 21, 2017, 10:09 PM)


TempWorksCo
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Apr 21, 2017, 10:07 PM

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Post #200 of 998 (965 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
- abolish inheritance tax. You've paid tax once on your income, why pay it again?

Because you're not paying again, someone else is who is inheriting wealth they didn't earn..


Why should my children pay tax on money i have chosen to leave to them?


Because the politics of bitterness and envy mean that no-one can depart this mortal coil in surplus. It must instead be given to the state, which obviously knows best how to handle the fruits of your labours. Even if doing so causes your nearest and dearest, who you've worked all your life to support, a substantial drop in their standard of living once you've popped it.


It's not bitterness and envy though, it's about wanting a more equal society. Inheritance leads to increased concentrations of wealth, which is very bad for society.

It's depressing that people assume these sorts of opinions are motivated by bitterness and envy. I grew up in a poor household but have done reasonably well for myself. I am not a top rate taxpayer, but I earn more than enough money to live the life I want, so I have no envy of those earning more. I want to see people poorer than myself supported better by society, and this involves some wealth distribution, which I would be happy to be a part of as well.


Well, i wont be distributing any of my hard earned dosh to enable some idle bugger ive never met, have a better life.
Charities are there for people who want to throw their money away.



Grounds visited - A few
Wetherspoons visited - Not many
Ales tasted - Loads

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