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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League

 

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Unicorn
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Nov 16, 2016, 10:59 PM

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Post #1 of 149 (8203 views)
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Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League Can't Post or Reply Privately

There does not seem to be a thread for this.
But it seems to be discussed a fair bit on other threads.
Windy have you any idea if this will now be quickly on the agenda.
The Football League proposals which held it up came to an abrupt end. It might have taken us by surprise but i would guess that the FALC saw it coming. The proposals got in the way of a multi million pound overseas TV deal so they had to go in the bin.
Surely now they can just push ahead and come up with a plan of action.


paulh66
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Nov 16, 2016, 11:05 PM

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Post #2 of 149 (8187 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Before this thread becomes another wish list, can someone start off by reminding us what the actual plan for a Midland League entails and how far the plan has got to date (anything agreed etc)?

I've got it in my head that they're aiming for a new (additional) league at step 3 with two new feeders at step 4, turning the current 1-2-3-6 system into 1-2-4-8, but I might well be wrong on that.


Unicorn
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Nov 16, 2016, 11:13 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes also hope this sticks to the subject.
i think the 1-2-4-8 was the plan but not sure if all at once or in stages.


windydcfc
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Nov 16, 2016, 11:15 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They may just look at 1 step 4 division initially. But anything is possible & I doubt the FA will have any concrete for a while yet.



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


Unicorn
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Nov 17, 2016, 10:24 AM

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Post #5 of 149 (8022 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
They may just look at 1 step 4 division initially. But anything is possible & I doubt the FA will have any concrete for a while yet.


But they really should be able to come up with something.
They said that they could not go ahead with anything until the Football League proposals were sorted out.
But they knew for various reasons all of which have been mentioned publicly that this initiative was very likely to fail.
So now it has happened they should be ready to go public with firm plans for the pyramid.
But they will probably not..


acmold
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Nov 17, 2016, 10:39 AM

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Post #6 of 149 (8016 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or

Was the last idea, forecast, muttering (call it what you like) we heard actually Central not Midland going from Lowestoft to Hereford and Sheffield to ??????.


kivo
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Nov 17, 2016, 3:22 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Think I read somewhere it would take three years to implement fully -

Current - 1-2-3-6
Year 1 - 1-2-3-7
Year 2 - 1-2-3-8
Year 3 - 1-2-4-8


keneastlancs
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Nov 19, 2016, 10:43 PM

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Re: [kivo] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I feel any changes have to be done in 1 go and can be easily accommodated as follows.

steps 1 and 2 remain as they are, at step 3 introduce a midland premier - so 4 leagues at step 3 if each league had 20 teams in then 8 teams would be needed from step 4 (I would not relegate anyone from step 3 for this 1 season only) the promotion would be (as more northern/midland clubs needed) top 2 from NPL1 N and top2 from NPL1 S then champions only from Ryman 1 N, Ryman 1 S, SPL1C and SPL1 S&W so this would give 80 teams at step 3- put into most geographically appropriate league.

at step 4 at the same time increase to 8 leagues I would reduce each league to 20 teams and relegate the bottom club only for 1 season from the current 6 leagues so therefore 38 teams would be needed on mass from step 5 I would find these 38 clubs by the following

the 14 champions of the step 5 leagues as usual (or 2nd if champions don't go up) then
8 further clubs from the Northern league (total 9 clubs) these would be any 8 from any position in the league for 1 off.
the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (or 5th and 6th but no lower if above cant go up) from each of the NWCL, NCEL, MA and UCL thus more northern/midland clubs brought in. this would then leave 4 clubs to find
I would find these from the 4 southern step 5 leagues who didn't promote in the Ryman expansion a few years back so they would be 2nd placed club (or 3rd but no lower) from Eastern, Western, Wessex and Hellenic Leagues.

so per league it would be

NL 9 promoted - any 9 clubs (best placed 9 in either division)
NWCL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
NCEL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
MA 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
UCL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
Eastern counties 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Wessex 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Hellenic 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Western 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Southern Comb 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Southern Counties East 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
South Midlands 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Combined Counties 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Essex 1st only (or 2nd no lower)

I would then bring step 5 upto 16 leagues by introducing another feeder to NPL1 North and promoting East midlands to step 5 then step 6 would also be 16 leagues the 2nd divisions of the step 5 leagues. each step 5 and 6 league would have 18 teams.

Step 7 would be kept pretty much as it is - reducing teams in league to 16 and closing/merging some of the leagues if necessary.
so
level 1. 1 league 24 teams
level 2. 2 leagues 22 teams in each =44
level 3. 4 leagues 20 teams in each = 80
level 4. 8 leagues 20 teams in each = 160
level 5. 16 leagues 18 teams in each = 288
level 6. 16 leagues 18 teams in each =288


Eventually - although I don't think its needed, step 3 and 4 could return to 22/24 teams easily but I believe 20 teams at level 3 and 4 would be sufficient.


keneastlancs
Reserve Team Regular

Nov 19, 2016, 10:43 PM

Posts: 566
Location: Darwen Lancashire
Team(s): all non league - especially north western teams

Post #9 of 149 (7498 views)
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Re: [kivo] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I feel any changes have to be done in 1 go and can be easily accommodated as follows.

steps 1 and 2 remain as they are, at step 3 introduce a midland premier - so 4 leagues at step 3 if each league had 20 teams in then 8 teams would be needed from step 4 (I would not relegate anyone from step 3 for this 1 season only) the promotion would be (as more northern/midland clubs needed) top 2 from NPL1 N and top2 from NPL1 S then champions only from Ryman 1 N, Ryman 1 S, SPL1C and SPL1 S&W so this would give 80 teams at step 3- put into most geographically appropriate league.

at step 4 at the same time increase to 8 leagues I would reduce each league to 20 teams and relegate the bottom club only for 1 season from the current 6 leagues so therefore 38 teams would be needed on mass from step 5 I would find these 38 clubs by the following

the 14 champions of the step 5 leagues as usual (or 2nd if champions don't go up) then
8 further clubs from the Northern league (total 9 clubs) these would be any 8 from any position in the league for 1 off.
the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (or 5th and 6th but no lower if above cant go up) from each of the NWCL, NCEL, MA and UCL thus more northern/midland clubs brought in. this would then leave 4 clubs to find
I would find these from the 4 southern step 5 leagues who didn't promote in the Ryman expansion a few years back so they would be 2nd placed club (or 3rd but no lower) from Eastern, Western, Wessex and Hellenic Leagues.

so per league it would be

NL 9 promoted - any 9 clubs (best placed 9 in either division)
NWCL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
NCEL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
MA 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
UCL 1st to 4th (5th or 6th if needed)
Eastern counties 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Wessex 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Hellenic 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Western 1st and 2nd (3rd only if needed. No lower)
Southern Comb 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Southern Counties East 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
South Midlands 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Combined Counties 1st only (or 2nd no lower)
Essex 1st only (or 2nd no lower)

I would then bring step 5 upto 16 leagues by introducing another feeder to NPL1 North and promoting East midlands to step 5 then step 6 would also be 16 leagues the 2nd divisions of the step 5 leagues. each step 5 and 6 league would have 18 teams.

Step 7 would be kept pretty much as it is - reducing teams in league to 16 and closing/merging some of the leagues if necessary.
so
level 1. 1 league 24 teams
level 2. 2 leagues 22 teams in each =44
level 3. 4 leagues 20 teams in each = 80
level 4. 8 leagues 20 teams in each = 160
level 5. 16 leagues 18 teams in each = 288
level 6. 16 leagues 18 teams in each =288


Eventually - although I don't think its needed, step 3 and 4 could return to 22/24 teams easily but I believe 20 teams at level 3 and 4 would be sufficient.


(This post was edited by keneastlancs on Nov 19, 2016, 10:51 PM)


Unicorn
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Nov 20, 2016, 1:31 PM

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Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #10 of 149 (7351 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think what you have stated is exactly why little has been done.
Yes It could all be done at once.
But it's never as simple as it seems.
So they use every excuse under the sun to put it off and do nothing.
The FL proposals gave them a ready made excuse.
Just my view.


keneastlancs
Reserve Team Regular

Nov 20, 2016, 3:02 PM

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Location: Darwen Lancashire
Team(s): all non league - especially north western teams

Post #11 of 149 (7304 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

but if they want it to go through I feel it needs all doing in one season as over a number of seasons it will cause disorganisation and disruption worse than a one off also over more than 1 season may not be able to get sufficient north/midland teams and may again have to use southern teams. On mass movement I feel would work best.

But I feel that the FA may stick to the status quo although they know its not working.


Richard Rundle
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Nov 20, 2016, 3:51 PM

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Post #12 of 149 (7271 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
But I feel that the FA may stick to the status quo although they know its not working.


It's working better than a wholesale re-organisation would do. The only thing to make it about right would be to get rid of Step 2 (and Yes, I know that's not going to happen). Sure, we could all think of a tweak here or there but it doesn't need more leagues created.


Unicorn
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Nov 20, 2016, 10:32 PM

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Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #13 of 149 (7064 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Its much the same as knowing that the front room needs decorating. You want to do it but the thought of disconnecting everything and moving it all out makes you put it off. You don't need the disruption.
Every time that things are altered in football someone is not happy about it. Then you get appeals. Sometimes appeals are won and you have to rethink everything.
And of course the appeals are often predictable so you go into the situation knowing it will be a headache.
If they had the powers that some people on this forum seem to think they have it would be easier.
Change will come because it always does in all things but do not expect the FA to be in any hurry.


PaulC
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Nov 21, 2016, 9:01 AM

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Post #14 of 149 (6950 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It's working better than a wholesale re-organisation would do.


It's working fine if you're in the southern half of the country.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 21, 2016, 9:49 AM

Posts: 10473
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #15 of 149 (6929 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It's working better than a wholesale re-organisation would do.


It's working fine if you're in the southern half of the country.



Apart from the Southwest. But this doesn't matter to the status quoists!



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


knmeynell
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Nov 21, 2016, 10:15 AM

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Post #16 of 149 (6914 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Sure, we could all think of a tweak here or there but it doesn't need more leagues created.


Arguably it does.

I'd thought there's a fair argument that the pyramid needs more regionalisation, especially at higher steps of the pyramid. There's also clearly an imbalance in feeder leagues in different parts of the country which is pushing the boundaries of northernly leagues ever further south.


acmold
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Nov 21, 2016, 10:15 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To

In Reply To
It's working better than a wholesale re-organisation would do.


It's working fine if you're in the southern half of the country.


Think some clubs in the Southern Premier might disagree.


Unicorn
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Nov 21, 2016, 10:50 AM

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Post #18 of 149 (6892 views)
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Re: [knmeynell] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Sure, we could all think of a tweak here or there but it doesn't need more leagues created.


Arguably it does.

I'd thought there's a fair argument that the pyramid needs more regionalisation, especially at higher steps of the pyramid. There's also clearly an imbalance in feeder leagues in different parts of the country which is pushing the boundaries of northernly leagues ever further south.


Yes they are committed to the idea of a new Midland or central set up at steps 3 and 4.
When they actually get round to it another matter because it is a major shake up.


ladderman
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Nov 21, 2016, 11:50 AM

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Post #19 of 149 (6861 views)
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Re: [acmold] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


Quote
Think some clubs in the Southern Premier might disagree.


Yep. Looking at our options for next season if Stortford go down, the SL is not a pretty prospect.
Personally I think this only really works if there's only seven step 4 divisions - that's far less disruptive to the divisions below and does solve at least some of the problems. Two up from each step 4 division, three down from each step 3 division with the 17th placed step 3 sides playing off (north v midlands & south v isthmian) with the loser going down.


wazzafan
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Nov 21, 2016, 10:17 PM

Posts: 980
Location: Warrington
Team(s): Warrington Town

Post #20 of 149 (6571 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Right then. Here we go again.

As most of you know, I have no job, and spend all my free time doing Spreadsheets (no wife either).

Here's my rendition of a 1-2-4-7-16-18 pyramid:

http://goo.gl/Eg2hHb

Come at me. Crazy



Non League Projections - 2018/19: http://goo.gl/5UvkvE

Step 1: http://goo.gl/9QipfY
Step 2: http://goo.gl/VoE1oY
Step 3: http://goo.gl/Ru3jUk
Step 4: http://goo.gl/QHVmDA
Step 5: http://goo.gl/VrnrYg
Step 6: http://goo.gl/Mk86of


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 21, 2016, 10:20 PM

Posts: 10473
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #21 of 149 (6561 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Come at me. Crazy



I hope that's not in the biblical senseLaugh



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Nov 21, 2016, 10:31 PM)


aicwhu
First Team Sub

Nov 21, 2016, 10:32 PM

Posts: 990
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Post #22 of 149 (6535 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Excellent spread sheet

Just wonderered why 1-2-4-7 not the more logical 1-2-4-8


andrew c


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 21, 2016, 10:38 PM

Posts: 10473
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #23 of 149 (6529 views)
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Re: [aicwhu] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Excellent spread sheet

Just wonderered why 1-2-4-7 not the more logical 1-2-4-8


andrew c

Rumours doing the rounds is that's how they'll start. The may not even initially have a step 3 Midlands league, that maybe stage 2. With the 2nd step4 Midlands league at stage 3.



Non League Projection - 2020/21: https://docs.google.com/...UTgVhKYTo/edit#gid=0
Step 1: https://www.google.com/....119447550000018&z=7
Step 2: https://www.google.com/...677250654298405&z=15
Step 3: https://www.google.com/...358611350589399&z=16
Step 4: https://www.google.com/...536616305542566&z=16
Step 5: https://www.google.com/...399355140531952&z=16
Step 6: https://www.google.com/...1556307438963813&z=9


wazzafan
First Team Sub

Nov 21, 2016, 10:40 PM

Posts: 980
Location: Warrington
Team(s): Warrington Town

Post #24 of 149 (6524 views)
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Re: [aicwhu] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think a single 'Central' Step 4 league is the way it'll go for a few seasons before an 8th is added at a later date.

I should state, in order to adhere to the 20 teams per Step 5 league, I've needed to take a few 'shortcuts'. Noticeably, demoting Oxford City Nomads & Brackley Town Saints from the Hellenic Premier (they're not in relegation places) and relegating 6 Essex clubs in order to create the Essex Step 6 league.

The sad thing for me with this, is the lack of decreased travelling in the Southern S&W (it's effectly unaffected). Having to allocate the extra 8 clubs from both Isthmian leagues into the new 'Central One' and Southern Central has left no room for improvement there.



Non League Projections - 2018/19: http://goo.gl/5UvkvE

Step 1: http://goo.gl/9QipfY
Step 2: http://goo.gl/VoE1oY
Step 3: http://goo.gl/Ru3jUk
Step 4: http://goo.gl/QHVmDA
Step 5: http://goo.gl/VrnrYg
Step 6: http://goo.gl/Mk86of


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 21, 2016, 10:49 PM

Posts: 8469
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Post #25 of 149 (6502 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] Step 3 and 4 Midland/Central League [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


There's no way they will give that many promotion places to the existing Midland League over everyone else.

And good luck transferring Walton Casuals out of the Isthmian setup.

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