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English lino '89

 



Joachim
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Sep 1, 2016, 1:21 PM

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English lino '89 Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am trying to work out the identity for one of two English linesmen who featured during a World Cup qualifying match between Portugal and Switzerland in Lisbon on April 26 1989.

The match was refereed by Allan Gunn, and one of his assistants was Raymond Lewis. According to FIFA's own online archive for this particular game (http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=310/match=333/index.html), the other lino's given as one "Ken Dunn". However, I have been trying to find out about this Mr Dunn and no search has so far yielded a result. He cannot be traced online and he is not listed in any of the Rothmans Football Yearbooks (in the chapter for 'officials') from the late 1980s. A friend of mine had even asked former Premier League referee Jeff Winter at Meadow Lane in Nottingham last night, during the Football Trophy (or whatever it is called these days) game between Notts County and Hartlepool, and Mr Winter, who himself ran the line around that time, did not know of a "Ken Dunn".

So. Any stattos or historians who happen to know of this second linesman's identity?



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(This post was edited by Joachim on Sep 1, 2016, 1:24 PM)


Part-Timer
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Sep 1, 2016, 4:39 PM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't know the answer but have you considered the possibility that it was Steve Dunn, who was a FIFA Assistant Referee around that time?


Joachim
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Sep 1, 2016, 5:24 PM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Re: [Part-Timer] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thank you for your suggestion.

I should have said in my original post that I've tried to make comparisons visually from the linesman in question (who is pictured very clearly on a DVD which I have, when he is lining up along his fellow officials and the players ahead of kick-off; only Gunn's name's being screened) and to pictures of Steve Dunn that I've found online. They do not seem to match very well, even if I acknowledge that most pictures of Mr Dunn that are circulating were from the latter parts of his refereeing career (he is not unlike Al Bundy, to be honest), while this was a match played at the tail end of the 80s.



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southend statto
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Sep 1, 2016, 7:45 PM

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Post #4 of 22 (8318 views)
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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

hi, would the Portuguese FA have a record or have you tried them - or even the Swiss F.A.?


PaulC
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Sep 1, 2016, 8:56 PM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Diario do Lisboa's match report names him as "A Dunn"



http://www.fmsoares.pt/...;numero_da_pagina=17


Joachim
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Sep 1, 2016, 9:18 PM

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Re: [PaulC] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thank you for another very useful piece of information. Now there's Ken Dunn, A Dunn and Steve Dunn, though the latter I feel confident we can discard.

I do not know whether either of you are members of a Facebook group called "Football Historians Research Group". I posted the same question there with a short video cut uploaded which shows very clearly the three officials. So far it has not yielded an answer.

Southend Statto: Another useful tip which I will try out if nothing else works. Cheers.



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paulh66
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Sep 1, 2016, 9:28 PM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You might have covered this angle already but, if our man was linesman at a WC qualifier, he must have been a linesman at quite a few high profile league/cup games in England. That might make research easier, though I've had no luck so far with random searches on Google...


Joachim
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Sep 1, 2016, 9:43 PM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Re: [paulh66] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
You might have covered this angle already but, if our man was linesman at a WC qualifier, he must have been a linesman at quite a few high profile league/cup games in England. That might make research easier, though I've had no luck so far with random searches on Google...


Exactly. Rothmans Yearbook from the late 80s used to have a referees section, but there's no Dunn listed in either of their issues from that era. Appreciate very much your tip, whether you thought it could be useful or not.

http://italia1990.com/uefa/group-7/portugal-switzerland/

The reason behind my question is this. It is an ambitious project, and it has only just begun, there's years of work ahead, but in time it can hopefully be a website people who appreciated Italia 1990 can embrace.

Ah, works better with a hyperlink perhaps:
http://italia1990.com/...ortugal-switzerland/



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(This post was edited by Joachim on Sep 1, 2016, 9:45 PM)


thowdreds
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Sep 2, 2016, 8:15 AM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You could try the Rate the Ref forum. They're quite good at digging out obscure refereeing information.

(This post was edited by thowdreds on Sep 2, 2016, 8:17 AM)


pitch 63
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Sep 2, 2016, 9:21 AM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It wasn't Steve Dunn, I know his brother and have been a lino to Steve in the past. Steve was not appointed to the FIFA Assistant Refs list until 1992.


Eastbourne
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Sep 2, 2016, 10:57 AM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Thank you for another very useful piece of information. Now there's Ken Dunn, A Dunn and Steve Dunn, though the latter I feel confident we can discard.

I do not know whether either of you are members of a Facebook group called "Football Historians Research Group". I posted the same question there with a short video cut uploaded which shows very clearly the three officials. So far it has not yielded an answer.

Southend Statto: Another useful tip which I will try out if nothing else works. Cheers.




To me it is quite clear that A Dunn is an admin error for A Gunn the referee.
There are not many Ken or Kenneths from around that time, so I think the error could have been such that the real name is nothing like Ken or Dunn.


Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 11:22 AM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Re: [thowdreds] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
You could try the Rate the Ref forum. They're quite good at digging out obscure refereeing information.[/reply]

Thank you. Just registered. I guess I have to wait in order to be 'certified' before I am allowed to post. And I am probably half blind, but I cannot see a forum section for "historical" matches (or something to similar effect).



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Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 11:23 AM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Re: [pitch 63] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It wasn't Steve Dunn, I know his brother and have been a lino to Steve in the past. Steve was not appointed to the FIFA Assistant Refs list until 1992.


Ta.
Yes, he is out of the question.



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Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 11:25 AM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Post #14 of 22 (8034 views)
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Re: [Eastbourne] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
To me it is quite clear that A Dunn is an admin error for A Gunn the referee.
There are not many Ken or Kenneths from around that time, so I think the error could have been such that the real name is nothing like Ken or Dunn.


That is a definite possibility. If I were only able to upload his picture here, but this forum only allows for pics/files of 300kb or less to be uploaded, and the pic I've got is about 1,5mb.
It is hardly a precise description, but his hair is a bit "Roger Milford like".



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derekn
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Sep 2, 2016, 11:34 AM

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Post #15 of 22 (8023 views)
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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can't you convert the pic to a smaller size? Virtually all photo software does this as standard.


Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 11:37 AM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
Team(s): Cambridge City

Post #16 of 22 (8022 views)
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Re: [derekn] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I guess I shouldn't say in public, but I don't know how to!

If you don't mind sending me an email on [email protected], I'll return you the pic and you could upload it in the 'legal' scale.



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derekn
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Sep 2, 2016, 12:28 PM

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Post deleted by derekn [In reply to] or Reply Privately

 


Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 1:32 PM

Posts: 144
Location: Oslo
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Post #18 of 22 (7934 views)
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Re: [derekn] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cheers mate.

So this is the pic. The mysterious one is to the right with the yellow flag.



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Attachments: Lino.JPG (254 KB)


Eastbourne
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Sep 2, 2016, 1:48 PM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Looking at the photo , unless its a bad copy the badge on his chest appears to be different from the other two.
Also unless there is an optical illusion he appears to have one short sleeve and one long sleeve?, so did he have a dodgy arm?
Why must he be English?, maybe he was a late substitute?


Joachim
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Sep 2, 2016, 1:54 PM

Posts: 144
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Re: [Eastbourne] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Looking at the photo , unless its a bad copy the badge on his chest appears to be different from the other two.
Also unless there is an optical illusion he appears to have one short sleeve and one long sleeve?, so did he have a dodgy arm?
Why must he be English?, maybe he was a late substitute?


You are right, I hadn't actually noticed he is carrying a different kind of badge. However, there's nothing dodgy about his arm; it is just the shade making it look so.

Perhaps he was a late replacement for the original bloke, whoever he was (and whoever this is). It doesn't make the mysterium any less. But if there was a late injury to the original linesman, there was still, even back in the late 80s, a fourth official who would've been called upon to step in? It is not as if they picked some random bloke from the stands to fill in, so I am still assuming this one will have been English even if he was in fact a replacement.



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(This post was edited by Joachim on Sep 2, 2016, 1:56 PM)


Ropemaker
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Sep 2, 2016, 5:06 PM

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Post #21 of 22 (7761 views)
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Re: [Eastbourne] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Looking at the photo , unless its a bad copy the badge on his chest appears to be different from the other two.
Also unless there is an optical illusion he appears to have one short sleeve and one long sleeve?, so did he have a dodgy arm?
Why must he be English?, maybe he was a late substitute?

My first thought was it was an FA badge whilst the other two had FIFA badges on



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oxpete
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Dec 23, 2016, 9:48 PM

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Re: [Joachim] English lino '89 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I am trying to work out the identity for one of two English linesmen who featured during a World Cup qualifying match between Portugal and Switzerland in Lisbon on April 26 1989.

The match was refereed by Allan Gunn, and one of his assistants was Raymond Lewis.


Please forgive me this burst of self-indulgence, but the name of referee Allan Gunn brings back many memories of childhood visits to Fratton Park for me, where with his memorable name he seemed to be regularly in charge of Pompey's matches. If fact, so convinced was my dad that Allan Gunn was always biased in favour of that week's visitors, I can vividly remember him once growling "Oh no, not that Allan Gunn AGAIN!!"

His name cropping up in this thread has made me dig out my old Pompey record books and investigate whether or not he really was as bias as my dad seemed to suggest...

From what I can see, Allan Gunn refereed twenty Portsmouth fixtures between September 1976 (just a few months before I started attending Fratton Park) and March 1993 (a period during which I attended many more Pompey matches than I manage these days) - fourteen of his matches were at Fratton and six away, of which I attended twelve of that twenty. And I ought to let my dad know that the figures really don't back up the reputation we seemed so happy to lumber Mr.Gunn with!

Of those twenty matches...
Portsmouth won ten, drew eight, and lost just two.

Several of those matches that I attended really stick in the memory, which might be why his name is still very much in my mind nearly forty years after I first heard it shouted (almost certainly with added insult) from the North Terrace in front of me. In fact, Mr.Gunn refereed two of the most memorable Pompey matches I have ever been lucky enough to attend, in the shape of non-stop excitement of Portsmouth 0 Tottenham 0 in the League Cup first replay in November 1985 (Pompey went on to win the equally amazing second replay), and the very obviously enjoyable Southampton 0 Portsmouth 2 at The Dell in January 1988.

Equally memorable, for different reasons, was Portsmouth 3 Carlisle 3 in April 1978, the result that mathematically confirmed Pompey's relegation to Division Four for the first time, just twenty-eight years after they'd been crowned League Champions in successive seasons. That rainy afternoon, Pompey had twice been two-up only to concede twice in the last few minutes. Carlisle's equaliser was scored by David Kemp, my childhood hero who Pompey had sold to Carlisle just a month before. Someone near us on the Fratton End shouted in frustration "Where's your yellow shirt, Ref!?"

The first Allan Gunn-refereed match I attended was earlier that same doomed season, Portsmouth 1 Bury 1 on a sunny afternoon in October 1977. David Kemp scored again (this time while wearing a blue shirt) with a spectacular curling shot around the Bury defensive wall from a free-kick late in the match taken from inside the 'D' at the Milton End. Standing nearby on the North Terrace, being at the impressionable age of nine years old, and being inspired by a photo from a few months earlier of a Scotland fan on the Wembley turf ripping up the spot from which Kenny Dalglish had scored the winner v. England, I promptly ran onto the pitch and snatched the lose chunk of grass King Kemp had kicked up on scoring before sprinting back into the crowd again. Later that evening, the clod of earth was planted in our back garden. You can't get away with that sort of behaviour these days!

Of the two matches that Pompey lost under the authority of Allan Gunn, the first was a 1-2 away defeat at Gillingham in September 1976 (five months before I first ever watched Pompey). The second defeat, meanwhile, was a match that even the most die-hard Pompey fan would not begrudge losing: Charlton 1 Portsmouth 0 in December 1992 was Charlton's first match back at The Valley after over seven years exile.

Allan Gunn's complete record of Portsmouth matches is:

A Gillingham, lost 1-2 (18/9/1976)
H Bury, drew 1-1 (15/10/1977)
H Carlisle United, drew 3-3 (8/4/1978)
H Crewe Alex, won 3-0 2/9/1978)
H Swindon Town, drew 1-1 (11/8/1979)
H Blackpool, drew 3-3 (24/1/1981)
A Southend United, drew 0-0 (2/9/1981)
H Plymouth Argyle, won 1-0 (27/3/82)
H Oxford United, won 1-0 22/1/1983)
H Cardiff City, drew 1-1 (21/1/1984)
H Grimsby Town, won 3-2 (13/10/1984)
H Tottenham Hotspur, drew 0-0 (26/11/1985)
A Southampton, won 2-0 (3/1/1988)
A Wimbledon, drew 2-2 (19/4/1988)
H Port Vale, won 2-0 (11/11/1989)
H Oldham Athletic, won 2-1 (24/4/1990)
H Leicester City, won 3-1 (20/10/1990)
A Swindon Town, won 3-2 (16/11/1991)
A Charlton Athletic, lost 0-1 (5/12/1992)
H Oxford United, won 3-0 (27/3/1993)

 
 


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