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possible eu vote

 

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windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 11, 2015, 6:20 PM

Posts: 10199
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

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So I'm voting for the status quo, not because I'm a member of the Labour Party, but because job security is crucial to me!


Understandable.

He was asked what he would count as real change & said stop wasting money on the common agricultural policy & give that money to the former Eastern Block Countries. But make sure they only spend it on training there unskilled workers in Engineering qualification

I fear that giving Eastern Block countries money to spend on training engineers would simply exacerbate the existing problems. There are plenty of well-qualified Eastern Europeans who are unable to get jobs in their own countries so they leave, only to take low paid jobs in other countries, which seems to upset people in the countries that they go to. The alternative would be to invest in industry in the Eastern Block so that their nationals can get work in their own countries, but then people would complain that industry in Western Europe is being undercut by companies employing lower paid workers in the East.


Another reason they leave is because we have a severe shortage of engineers ourselves:

http://www.independent.co.uk/...eering-10334994.html

Why do jump to that conclusion? The amount of engineering company's that have either disappeared or no longer exists & have stopped apprenticeship since I started working is unreal! It's got nothing to do with us being in the EU, it was Thatcher's policies in the 80's that's killed it! Kids are leaving school & don't want to choose engineering & technical degrees. That is why we have a massive shortage of qualified people! I'm in the trade, so I know what the issues are.


Ronsdog
First Team Star


Nov 11, 2015, 6:30 PM

Posts: 2537
Location: Sarf London
Team(s): Lowestoft Town, Crystal Palace

Post #102 of 112 (1471 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] possible eu vote [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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So I'm voting for the status quo, not because I'm a member of the Labour Party, but because job security is crucial to me!


Understandable.

I watched The Daily Politics show today & I totally agree with the UKIP MEP that was on the show(I don't know his name, but he was a Tory for 30 years)! He said that Cameron's four major changes amount to absolutely nothing. He was asked what he would count as real change & said stop wasting money on the common agricultural policy & give that money to the former Eastern Block Countries. But make sure they only spend it on training there unskilled workers in Engineering qualification. This is the where there is a skill shortage across the EU & seems a reasonable way of evolving the EU into something that can tackle China, India & the U.S. Unfortunately the French economy depends on the common agricultural policy & would never agree to it!
I also agree with the Tory MEP who was also on the show. She said if we leave the EU & try & get a better trade deal with the EU afterwards. Then the EU will just tell us to stop dreaming & we'd end up worse off!


I'm not so sure that the stats bear out your assertion Windy.

I previously voted to remain part of the EEC back in the day.

Membership of that economic club, the EEC, was important for our exporters then as is the EU now. But as the report below shows its a shrinking part of our overall exports. Since the 1980s we have seen exports to the EEC/EU dive from a peak of 67% to today's figure of around 45%.
Seems to me that as a nation we are paying our way in the world but not in Europe.
For me that's the economic argument settled. Thoughts?

As for today's Cameron four point plan. It's so feeble an average 6th former could have penned it.



http://www.ons.gov.uk/...estment-/sty-eu.html

I'm not an economist & unless you tell me otherwise, neither are you. I see you've mentioned 45% as the trading figure with the EU, quite a large figure that. Wouldn't you agree?
I do know that a large part of our economy is the Banking/Service sector & this isn't really affected by the EU. But it says a lot about our economy & when you voted to join the EEC, we had a large but creaking manufacturing sector. I see you didn't mention the point that the UKIP MEP! What's your views on the dearth on qualified engineers etc. across the EU & isn't this the part of the economy that needs to expand & in doing so compete with China, India & the U.S.? Pity Thatcher kicked that part of the economy to death in the 80's & isn't it ironic that a former Tory has stated that we are weak in this sector!
The post after yours final paragraph is irrelevant in regards to the EU vote & has been done to death on many other threads!


I am not an economist but a student of history. Pro Europe and its people's but distinctly wary of the EU and all that it stands for.
Our current economic relationship with the EU, I contend no longer works to our advantage as it did in the past.

The internal machinations of the EU remain a mystery to me. So I have no view on the transfer of the discredited CAP monies being transferred to Eastern Europe. It may well be illegal under present EU rules but that hasn't stopped such shenanigans in the past.

The 45% figure is as you say, quite high. But is reducing at a rate of almost 1% per annum since 2005. Our major trading partner in the EU is the ROI. They view the economic aspects of our exit with alarm.....http://www.cityam.com/...major-strategic-risk

Mr Kenny is right to be concerned as 30% of their exports come directly to the UK. They are not members of Schengen either. Coupled to this we have provided some £20 billion to the Irish bailout but none to the Greek bailout. Make of that what you will.

If the EU decides to impose tariff restrictions on the UK as a result of a Brexit then it will harm the EU in its totality and Ireland in particular more than it damages our economy. They export more to us than we do to them. We will simply reply in kind. That will leave Ireland in a real predicament and place further political pressure on the remote elite that currently 'run' the EU show. This pressure will be placed on the Irish to then make a decision as to whether it's in their best interests to ditch us in favour of The EU.
The dominoe effect could lead to a new dynamic in the club and I forsee a much changed Europe as a result.

We have been semi detached members of the club since its inception and contrary to popular belief and the extortions of our business leaders at the time, we decided correctly to remain outside the Eurozone; which heaped damage on all the outlying states that adopted it.

Make no mistake the EU wants us to remain for their benefit, not ours.
The headlong rush to a federal political union is still in the minds of the German and French elite who run the club. But like here, not the peoples of those nations.

Our referendum result will shape the face of Europe for the next 50 years and my X is now firmly in the out box. I owe it to my children's children not to subsume this nation into a Pan European experiment that doesn't befit our status as a financially and politically independent global trading nation.

We have played by the rules of the club and it has not benefitted us, either economically or polically. The French and Germans by contrast broke the EUs own fiscal rules back in 2005 when contrary to agreed economic strictures ran deficits way above what was ordered by the Commission. Were they sanctioned? No. One rule for us and another for them?

They may stamp their feet and throw a wobbly but ultimately they will cobble together a fudge to sell to their voters that presents the UK as the villain. It remains to be seen if their electorates will suffer it. My view is that they will not.

Best to leave the club now and make our own way in the world free from the shackles and aspirations of a remote self seeking bunch who wish ultimately for a United States of Europe.

If we go others may well join us. Wink

I fully understand the out point of view! I also know that the EU is broken, whether that's irreversibly broken I'm not sure. But I deal in hard facts & the out campaign can't guarantee anything. They can we're going to be able to do this & that & the U.K. will be a whole lot of a better place. But none of this is evidentially provable & it could all go very very wrong!


Life is not predictable Windy and there are no certainties. And that goes for your job and countless others that work for multi national corporations.
It's about judgement and how we all view things.

Unlike you I fear that if we remain in the club we will be marginalised and our influence will be diluted not only within the EU but more worryingly on the world stage.

If we do remain a member can you honestly see the European elite remaining content with our semi detached role. The status quo I fear is not as safe as you would have us believe.

It is my fear that we will be bounced into ever more integration against the wishes of the majority of the electorate.

Be bold and brave, and seize the opportunity. This is a once and for all offer. Over and out.......


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Nov 11, 2015, 6:40 PM)


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 11, 2015, 7:11 PM

Posts: 10199
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #103 of 112 (1444 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] possible eu vote [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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So I'm voting for the status quo, not because I'm a member of the Labour Party, but because job security is crucial to me!


Understandable.

I watched The Daily Politics show today & I totally agree with the UKIP MEP that was on the show(I don't know his name, but he was a Tory for 30 years)! He said that Cameron's four major changes amount to absolutely nothing. He was asked what he would count as real change & said stop wasting money on the common agricultural policy & give that money to the former Eastern Block Countries. But make sure they only spend it on training there unskilled workers in Engineering qualification. This is the where there is a skill shortage across the EU & seems a reasonable way of evolving the EU into something that can tackle China, India & the U.S. Unfortunately the French economy depends on the common agricultural policy & would never agree to it!
I also agree with the Tory MEP who was also on the show. She said if we leave the EU & try & get a better trade deal with the EU afterwards. Then the EU will just tell us to stop dreaming & we'd end up worse off!


I'm not so sure that the stats bear out your assertion Windy.

I previously voted to remain part of the EEC back in the day.

Membership of that economic club, the EEC, was important for our exporters then as is the EU now. But as the report below shows its a shrinking part of our overall exports. Since the 1980s we have seen exports to the EEC/EU dive from a peak of 67% to today's figure of around 45%.
Seems to me that as a nation we are paying our way in the world but not in Europe.
For me that's the economic argument settled. Thoughts?

As for today's Cameron four point plan. It's so feeble an average 6th former could have penned it.



http://www.ons.gov.uk/...estment-/sty-eu.html

I'm not an economist & unless you tell me otherwise, neither are you. I see you've mentioned 45% as the trading figure with the EU, quite a large figure that. Wouldn't you agree?
I do know that a large part of our economy is the Banking/Service sector & this isn't really affected by the EU. But it says a lot about our economy & when you voted to join the EEC, we had a large but creaking manufacturing sector. I see you didn't mention the point that the UKIP MEP! What's your views on the dearth on qualified engineers etc. across the EU & isn't this the part of the economy that needs to expand & in doing so compete with China, India & the U.S.? Pity Thatcher kicked that part of the economy to death in the 80's & isn't it ironic that a former Tory has stated that we are weak in this sector!
The post after yours final paragraph is irrelevant in regards to the EU vote & has been done to death on many other threads!


I am not an economist but a student of history. Pro Europe and its people's but distinctly wary of the EU and all that it stands for.
Our current economic relationship with the EU, I contend no longer works to our advantage as it did in the past.

The internal machinations of the EU remain a mystery to me. So I have no view on the transfer of the discredited CAP monies being transferred to Eastern Europe. It may well be illegal under present EU rules but that hasn't stopped such shenanigans in the past.

The 45% figure is as you say, quite high. But is reducing at a rate of almost 1% per annum since 2005. Our major trading partner in the EU is the ROI. They view the economic aspects of our exit with alarm.....http://www.cityam.com/...major-strategic-risk

Mr Kenny is right to be concerned as 30% of their exports come directly to the UK. They are not members of Schengen either. Coupled to this we have provided some £20 billion to the Irish bailout but none to the Greek bailout. Make of that what you will.

If the EU decides to impose tariff restrictions on the UK as a result of a Brexit then it will harm the EU in its totality and Ireland in particular more than it damages our economy. They export more to us than we do to them. We will simply reply in kind. That will leave Ireland in a real predicament and place further political pressure on the remote elite that currently 'run' the EU show. This pressure will be placed on the Irish to then make a decision as to whether it's in their best interests to ditch us in favour of The EU.
The dominoe effect could lead to a new dynamic in the club and I forsee a much changed Europe as a result.

We have been semi detached members of the club since its inception and contrary to popular belief and the extortions of our business leaders at the time, we decided correctly to remain outside the Eurozone; which heaped damage on all the outlying states that adopted it.

Make no mistake the EU wants us to remain for their benefit, not ours.
The headlong rush to a federal political union is still in the minds of the German and French elite who run the club. But like here, not the peoples of those nations.

Our referendum result will shape the face of Europe for the next 50 years and my X is now firmly in the out box. I owe it to my children's children not to subsume this nation into a Pan European experiment that doesn't befit our status as a financially and politically independent global trading nation.

We have played by the rules of the club and it has not benefitted us, either economically or polically. The French and Germans by contrast broke the EUs own fiscal rules back in 2005 when contrary to agreed economic strictures ran deficits way above what was ordered by the Commission. Were they sanctioned? No. One rule for us and another for them?

They may stamp their feet and throw a wobbly but ultimately they will cobble together a fudge to sell to their voters that presents the UK as the villain. It remains to be seen if their electorates will suffer it. My view is that they will not.

Best to leave the club now and make our own way in the world free from the shackles and aspirations of a remote self seeking bunch who wish ultimately for a United States of Europe.

If we go others may well join us. Wink

I fully understand the out point of view! I also know that the EU is broken, whether that's irreversibly broken I'm not sure. But I deal in hard facts & the out campaign can't guarantee anything. They can we're going to be able to do this & that & the U.K. will be a whole lot of a better place. But none of this is evidentially provable & it could all go very very wrong!


Life is not predictable Windy and there are no certainties. And that goes for your job and countless others that work for multi national corporations.
It's about judgement and how we all view things.

Unlike you I fear that if we remain in the club we will be marginalised and our influence will be diluted not only within the EU but more worryingly on the world stage.

If we do remain a member can you honestly see the European elite remaining content with our semi detached role. The status quo I fear is not as safe as you would have us believe.

It is my fear that we will be bounced into ever more integration against the wishes of the majority of the electorate.

Be bold and brave, and seize the opportunity. This is a once and for all offer. Over and out.......

I apologise for my disgraceful grammar! I proof read my post, which you've replied too & I've typed 'can' instead of 'say'! I blame the pregabalin & amitriptyline for my backBlush


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 11, 2015, 7:16 PM

Posts: 8289
Location:
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Post #104 of 112 (1437 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] possible eu vote [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Unlike you I fear that if we remain in the club we will be marginalised and our influence will be diluted not only within the EU but more worryingly on the world stage.


And my fear is that if we leave the EU, we will become even more marginalised on the world stage.


TempWorksCo
Reserve Team Sub

Nov 11, 2015, 7:23 PM

Posts: 513
Location: Wales
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Post #105 of 112 (1430 views)
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. But I deal in hard facts & the out campaign can't guarantee anything.


What does the in campaign guarantee?



Grounds visited - A few
Wetherspoons visited - Not many
Ales tasted - Loads


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 11, 2015, 7:53 PM

Posts: 10199
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #106 of 112 (1412 views)
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. But I deal in hard facts & the out campaign can't guarantee anything.


What does the in campaign guarantee?

Siemens are sponsoring the University Technical College in Lincoln. They hope to expand this & get kids the right sort of training required to benefit our company & country. The government & EU are heavily involved in this project. While we stay in the EU this project will provide the right sort of opportunities for our kids & grandkids! I guess this is just one example of how being part of the EU benefits us & I'm sure there are countless more!


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Nov 11, 2015, 7:54 PM)


TempWorksCo
Reserve Team Sub

Nov 11, 2015, 8:47 PM

Posts: 513
Location: Wales
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Post #107 of 112 (1399 views)
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. But I deal in hard facts & the out campaign can't guarantee anything.


What does the in campaign guarantee?

Siemens are sponsoring the University Technical College in Lincoln.!


Almost tempts me to vote to stay in!



Grounds visited - A few
Wetherspoons visited - Not many
Ales tasted - Loads


Ronsdog
First Team Star


Nov 15, 2015, 1:58 PM

Posts: 2537
Location: Sarf London
Team(s): Lowestoft Town, Crystal Palace

Post #108 of 112 (1284 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] possible eu vote [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Unlike you I fear that if we remain in the club we will be marginalised and our influence will be diluted not only within the EU but more worryingly on the world stage.


And my fear is that if we leave the EU, we will become even more marginalised on the world stage.


The leaders of the two most populous nations on the planet have recently visited London. This would suggest to me that we should strengthen our relationships with these emerging markets unilaterally.
After all both India and China have strong historical trading links with this island.

Just another indicator of a much wider export market that beckons.


Mr. T
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 15, 2015, 6:01 PM

Posts: 5304
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Post #109 of 112 (1258 views)
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Just another indicator of a much wider export market that beckons.


Quite. I'm always rather puzzled by those who think that if the UK leaves the EU that it'll have nowhere to sell anything.


Ronsdog
First Team Star


Nov 23, 2015, 11:07 PM

Posts: 2537
Location: Sarf London
Team(s): Lowestoft Town, Crystal Palace

Post #110 of 112 (1148 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] possible eu vote [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Since the events of Paris/Brussels and the continuing migrant crisis it seems that the voters are moving toward an exit.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/...eveals-a6745561.html


jon b
First Team Star

Nov 24, 2015, 5:02 AM

Posts: 2864
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #111 of 112 (1090 views)
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Just another indicator of a much wider export market that beckons.


Quite. I'm always rather puzzled by those who think that if the UK leaves the EU that it'll have nowhere to sell anything.


The UK?

You sure the Scots would quietly leave with the rest of us?


Ronsdog
First Team Star


Nov 24, 2015, 11:15 PM

Posts: 2537
Location: Sarf London
Team(s): Lowestoft Town, Crystal Palace

Post #112 of 112 (988 views)
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Just another indicator of a much wider export market that beckons.


Quite. I'm always rather puzzled by those who think that if the UK leaves the EU that it'll have nowhere to sell anything.


The UK?

You sure the Scots would quietly leave with the rest of us?


Constitutionally they, the Scots, would have no choice but to leave.
They remain an integral part of the UK when I last looked.

However, whether they would suffer it quietly is another question altogether. My hunch would be that if the UK left the EU it would trigger another Scottish referendum....a referendum in which the residents of England, Wales and NI would not be given a vote Wink


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Nov 24, 2015, 11:21 PM)

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