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Redcar Steelworks

 

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Yatesman
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Sep 28, 2015, 6:44 PM

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Redcar Steelworks Can't Post or Reply Privately

Desperately bad news regarding steel production at Redcar. 1700 direct jobs gone and 1300 sub contractor jobs under threat.
I know it's not fashionable to support British workers or heavy industrial jobs but the despair that these people must be feeling will be overwhelming.
Is it not time we started to look out for our own ?
How does Britain come to the help of these people ?


garethwrexy
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Sep 28, 2015, 7:30 PM

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Post #2 of 37 (3964 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

sad news



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


Ronsdog
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Sep 28, 2015, 8:51 PM

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Post #3 of 37 (3934 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sad indeed, but whilst we remain a member of the EU, and have a Tory government then subsidising loss making industries is a no no.

With China dumping steel at subsidised prices all over the world it remains a conundrum. Maybe if we had an efficient WTO that all nations subscribed to then steel making in the UK would be economically viable. Pretty much the same has happened latterly in the USA.

The alternative would be Trade Barriers and Tariffs. We all know what the consequences of that would be.......we tried it in the 1920s and 1930s and it led to war.


Yatesman
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Sep 28, 2015, 9:33 PM

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Post #4 of 37 (3907 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Sad indeed, but whilst we remain a member of the EU, and have a Tory government then subsidising loss making industries is a no no.

With China dumping steel at subsidised prices all over the world it remains a conundrum. Maybe if we had an efficient WTO that all nations subscribed to then steel making in the UK would be economically viable. Pretty much the same has happened latterly in the USA.

The alternative would be Trade Barriers and Tariffs. We all know what the consequences of that would be.......we tried it in the 1920s and 1930s and it led to war.


I'm sure the Gov't and the EU could find plenty of creative and incentivising ways to encourage the use of British Steel, just as it does with the farmingindustry and such like.
Plenty of steel towers under construction in London...probably with Chinese steel, as you say.


Ronsdog
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Sep 28, 2015, 10:03 PM

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Post #5 of 37 (3892 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't disagree with your possible solution, however that would need our present government to negotiate with a reluctant EU to allow such a scenario to happen. I can't see ' call me Dave ' and his bunch of toffs embarking on such a course of action.

The Conservative party since Thatcher have expedited the decline of traditional manufacturing industries. Osbourne and Cameron belong to a neo liberal class that despise anything that smacks of an industrial community. The chances of them intervening are slim at best.

The 'market rules' is their mantra which is why we now enjoy European state owned enterprises running our Utilities....eg French government owned EDF and German subsidised RWE charging sky high prices to UK consumers. This clearly hasn't helped our manufacturing industies whilst European competitors enjoy lower, subsidised, input costs for their energy usage. Much the same has happened with our Water and Rail companies.

The chances of this changing until we rid ourselves of our present rulers is negligible. Sad to say, whilst we have an opposition that remains divided, not much will change.


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Sep 28, 2015, 10:10 PM)


Mr. T
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Sep 28, 2015, 11:35 PM

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Post #6 of 37 (3848 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

'Failure to pay off 80 million loan' may have led to today's decision:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/...s-risk-ssis-10059659

UK overseas aid budget 12,000 million


Fanatic
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Sep 29, 2015, 12:04 AM

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Post #7 of 37 (3835 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm sure the Gov't and the EU could find plenty of creative and incentivising ways to encourage the use of British Steel, just as it does with the farmingindustry and such like.
Plenty of steel towers under construction in London...probably with Chinese steel, as you say.


But they just aren't interested. Unfortunately this is what happens when (a) the market is king (b) shareholders are more important than employees and (c) the government flogs everything it has, largely to foreign investors who give even less of a shit about the UK than corporations based here (one of the most recent being the fuel pipelines that supply our RAF bases - what could possibly go wrong!)

One way to try and stop this happening would be to adopt the German corporate model in which companies are overseen by a supervisory board, 50% of whose members are union representatives - they are hardly going to recommend closing down plants, and I don't think it's any coincidence that Germany has lost very little of its manufacturing industry compared with us. It wouldn't help with foreign-owned firms, but might make some of the few owned here more responsible.


bakis
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Sep 29, 2015, 10:09 AM

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Post #8 of 37 (3756 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Something tells me that we won't be seeing George in a high vis in Redcar anytime soon. I doubt if any of his lot have the faintest idea of the effect of this sort of event on whole communities. Worldwide events make change inevitable, but investment in renewable energy equipment and other developments would give hope for the future.
But having said all this a depressed post industrial town still offers a far better life than is experienced by those who are the beneficiaries of the overseas aid budget (perhaps I should say 'intended beneficiaries' to avoid a debate about misappropriation) and I don't think our reaction to these events is helped by questioning our commitment to those who have least.


Yatesman
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Sep 29, 2015, 11:07 PM

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Post #9 of 37 (3608 views)
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Re: [bakis] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Something tells me that we won't be seeing George in a high vis in Redcar anytime soon. I doubt if any of his lot have the faintest idea of the effect of this sort of event on whole communities. Worldwide events make change inevitable, but investment in renewable energy equipment and other developments would give hope for the future.
But having said all this a depressed post industrial town still offers a far better life than is experienced by those who are the beneficiaries of the overseas aid budget (perhaps I should say 'intended beneficiaries' to avoid a debate about misappropriation) and I don't think our reaction to these events is helped by questioning our commitment to those who have least.

I take your point about not linking this issue to the gov't helping people overseas but in the same vein I would also say that it isn't right to knock people for standing up for their own compatriots, as many are wont to do.
The point is that we can help our own and not every situation has to be determined by raw market forces.
The key to the success of any society of people is to help those within that society that are in trouble or are struggling. To not do that leads to the sorts of societies we see in the 3rd world.
The Gov't could create a more favourable environment for British Steel production by helping with power costs and ensuring new construction projects use a minimum percentage of British steel .
Tbh the fact that there has been an over production of steel in other countries amounts to a 'dumping' of cheap steel and could be considered a deliberate attempt to undermine the domestic steel production in other countries.
In that situation our Gov't is fully entitled under international trade protocols to protect our domestic steel industry by imposing tariffs on imported steel so that at least our domestic consumption is protected. Other countries could do the same and the over producing countries encouraged to scale down their production.


Richard Rundle
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Sep 30, 2015, 8:02 AM

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Post #10 of 37 (3543 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The key to the success of any society of people is to help those within that society that are in trouble or are struggling. To not do that leads to the sorts of societies we see in the 3rd world.


Yes, but I see "society" as a world-wide entity, not one confined to national borders.


Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 11:34 AM

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Post #11 of 37 (3482 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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UK overseas aid budget 12,000 million



Tax evasion - 34,000 million to as much as 100,000 million



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Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 11:37 AM

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Post #12 of 37 (3481 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
I'm sure the Gov't and the EU could find plenty of creative and incentivising ways to encourage the use of British Steel, just as it does with the farmingindustry and such like.
Plenty of steel towers under construction in London...probably with Chinese steel, as you say.


But they just aren't interested. Unfortunately this is what happens when (a) the market is king (b) shareholders are more important than employees and (c) the government flogs everything it has, largely to foreign investors who give even less of a shit about the UK than corporations based here (one of the most recent being the fuel pipelines that supply our RAF bases - what could possibly go wrong!)

The Government are talking about getting the Chinese to build a (new) Nuclear Power Station at Bradwell. As you say - what could possibly go wrong!



Last match:
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Burnham Ramblers v Haringey & Waltham (Essex Senior League)


Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 11:41 AM

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Post #13 of 37 (3478 views)
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Re: [bakis] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Something tells me that we won't be seeing George in a high vis in Redcar anytime soon. I doubt if any of his lot have the faintest idea of the effect of this sort of event on whole communities. Worldwide events make change inevitable, but investment in renewable energy equipment and other developments would give hope for the future.

If it was a steelworks in Chipping Norton, however...

Yes, investment in renewable energy, but also investment in manufacturing. Germany has done both, and done very well out of it. Meanwhile our trade gap and balance of payments deficit continues to widen, with our 'quick buck today' approach, rather than a 'mega buck tomorrow' way.



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(This post was edited by Runwell on Sep 30, 2015, 11:41 AM)


Ronsdog
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Sep 30, 2015, 11:57 AM

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Post #14 of 37 (3465 views)
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Re: [Yatesman] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Interestingly there seems to be general agreement on this subject.

Where s the opposite view....?

Kirkby Kitters, Don Q and others who may have an alternative opinion have remained mute on this one.

Just an observationWink


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Sep 30, 2015, 11:59 AM)


Mr. T
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:10 PM

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Post #15 of 37 (3455 views)
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Re: [Runwell] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

UK overseas aid budget 12,000 million



Tax evasion - 34,000 million to as much as 100,000 million


Your evidence? You can just pluck a figure out of the air for this one. And there is a difference between avoidance and evasion. Simpler tax laws would reduce both.

By not paying corporate taxes in the UK, Starbucks, Amazon et al are simply taking advantage of the current laws. That is not evasion and it's perfectly legal under EU law.

Like Yatesman elsewhere, I was simply raising the subject of priorities.


paulh66
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:12 PM

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Post #16 of 37 (3453 views)
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Re: [Ronsdog] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The opposite view is that, if we want to prop up uncompetitive businesses, we have to pay for it one way or another. Important not to lose sight of that. Then we can debate whether we should or should not go that route - a debate which is complex and has strong arguments on both sides.


Fanatic
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Sep 30, 2015, 12:54 PM

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Post #17 of 37 (3431 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

UK overseas aid budget 12,000 million



Tax evasion - 34,000 million to as much as 100,000 million


Your evidence?


Richard Murphy has estimated tax evasion to be around 85bn, with avoidance costing another 19.1bn and unrecovered tax debts at 18.2bn:

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/...CSTaxGap2014Full.pdf

HMRC themselves estimate the gap to be 35bn.


Mr. T
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:06 PM

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Re: [Fanatic] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Ah, Richard Murphy, the well-known left-wing economist*, adviser to Jeremy Corbyn, and frequently used by the BBC.

*Oxymoron alert.


Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:20 PM

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Post #19 of 37 (3408 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

UK overseas aid budget 12,000 million



Tax evasion - 34,000 million to as much as 100,000 million


Your evidence? You can just pluck a figure out of the air for this one. And there is a difference between avoidance and evasion. Simpler tax laws would reduce both.

By not paying corporate taxes in the UK, Starbucks, Amazon et al are simply taking advantage of the current laws. That is not evasion and it's perfectly legal under EU law.

Like Yatesman elsewhere, I was simply raising the subject of priorities.



Not disagreeing about priorities, but at least with aid, I know most of it goes in to the right hands (the UK has one of the best records on this). I have people I know who work in the DFID and for NGO's who have confirmed that. I could mention the vast sums of housing benefit being paid to wealthy landlords, but I'll be straying too off topic. The money is there to invest in British steel (et al), but successive Governments have kowtowed to neoliberal dogma instead.

I'm not plucking figures out of the air, as the scale of tax avoidance/evasion (yes I'm aware of the difference) is not clear. Amazon are actually being investigated by the EU over their dealings as an example, so the lines of morality/legality by these multinationals is rather blurred. HMRC has also underestimated the tax gap, so the figure will be much higher than 34bn. I agree that simplifying the tax system would reduce these kind of issues, but this Government have gone the other way, as did, in a way, New Labour. I'm sure the people of Redcar are probably asking the same questions...



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Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:33 PM

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Post #20 of 37 (3398 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Ah, Richard Murphy, the well-known left-wing economist*, adviser to Jeremy Corbyn, and frequently used by the BBC.

*Oxymoron alert.



Any decent (living) right-wing economists around? Not sure what's so oxymoron about that either. The thought of Osborne trying to wriggle his way out of the 2008 crash doesn't bear thinking about...

Academic studies have shown the BBC actually has a right-of-Centre bias.



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bakis
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:51 PM

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Post #21 of 37 (3380 views)
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Re: [Runwell] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The usual current complaint about economists is that nearly all of them are enslaved to neo liberal orthodoxy. This probably explains why the same 'left wing' ones tend to crop up quite frequently.


Mr. T
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:52 PM

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Post #22 of 37 (3380 views)
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Re: [Runwell] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Not disagreeing about priorities, but at least with aid, I know most of it goes in to the right hands (the UK has one of the best records on this). I have people I know who work in the DFID and for NGO's who have confirmed that. I could mention the vast sums of housing benefit being paid to wealthy landlords, but I'll be straying too off topic. The money is there to invest in British steel (et al), but successive Governments have kowtowed to neoliberal dogma instead.

I'm not plucking figures out of the air, as the scale of tax avoidance/evasion (yes I'm aware of the difference) is not clear. Amazon are actually being investigated by the EU over their dealings as an example, so the lines of morality/legality by these multinationals is rather blurred. HMRC has also underestimated the tax gap, so the figure will be much higher than 34bn. I agree that simplifying the tax system would reduce these kind of issues, but this Government have gone the other way, as did, in a way, New Labour. I'm sure the people of Redcar are probably asking the same questions...


Housing benefit and tax-relief on buy-to-let mortgages is a subject on which I'd broadly agree with you.

If 'neoliberal dogma' means don't spend more than you can earn then it's not dogma but good sense. If the Redcar steelworks had a short-term cash flow problem then I see no problem in giving it financial support.

Tax evasion. Too often used by some on the left as a cure-all simply tax the selfish rich and the greedy corporations and all will be will. There's more to it than that but then let's not get too off-topic. However...the willingness of the state, at national and local level, to bully the little man for a few pounds while running away from a tussle with the big players for many millions is a long-standing feature of government and should be of concern to anyone, whichever side of the political divide he stands on. Planning law is another area in which the same applies.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Sep 30, 2015, 1:52 PM)


Mr. T
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Sep 30, 2015, 1:58 PM

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Post #23 of 37 (3373 views)
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In Reply To
Academic studies have shown the BBC actually has a right-of-Centre bias.


Crazy


Runwell
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Sep 30, 2015, 4:50 PM

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Re: [Mr. T] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yep, research from Cardiff University has shown it to have a right-leaning bias.



In Reply To

Housing benefit and tax-relief on buy-to-let mortgages is a subject on which I'd broadly agree with you.

If 'neoliberal dogma' means don't spend more than you can earn then it's not dogma but good sense. If the Redcar steelworks had a short-term cash flow problem then I see no problem in giving it financial support.

Tax evasion. Too often used by some on the left as a cure-all simply tax the selfish rich and the greedy corporations and all will be will. There's more to it than that but then let's not get too off-topic. However...the willingness of the state, at national and local level, to bully the little man for a few pounds while running away from a tussle with the big players for many millions is a long-standing feature of government and should be of concern to anyone, whichever side of the political divide he stands on. Planning law is another area in which the same applies.



No disagreement there. Regarding taxing the rich, it's not purely about a money issue. It's also one of society, of community. Don't forget the top rate of tax was at 60% for most of the period under that great Socialist, Mrs Thatcher. Nobody died. Corbyn hasn't even suggested that at the moment, only restoring it to 50%. The main priority is collecting tax which is not being paid for, overhauling the system, so everybody pays their fair share - that's the key word, fair. 50%, or even 60%, is not going to turn a millionaire in to a pauper. So yes, I broadly agree about the little man being 'unfairly' targeted, at least on a moral ground, due to the long term blind eye of the State to tackle the big guns. So why have the richest 1%'s wealth rocketed since the crash, whilst others has stagnated?

Unfortunately neoliberalism doesn't exactly preach fiscal prudence, in the way the Keynesian model does. I believe this Government is actually spending more, than the previous Labour administration, so where does the money go?
Under the post-1945 model, debt as % of GDP dropped enormously, and one of New Labour's few outright achievements was to get this down further, to historically low levels prior to the 2008 crash. All this was under high-spending levels, but even New Labour's approach of expenditure as a % of GDP was nothing remarkable in historic terms.

It's a shame that Redcar Steelworks has not been given similar investment. Another folly of selling off these firms to foreign based firms. When will we learn?



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pitch 63
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Oct 1, 2015, 1:46 PM

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Post #25 of 37 (3199 views)
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Re: [Runwell] Redcar Steelworks [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

On a slightly different tack I am concerned by the increase in minimum wage to the living wage. This country has a sizeable small business economy and many will be unable to find the extra money for each employee every week and will go under; nationwide that will be more than the loss of jobs in Redcar.

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