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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Rule 7.1

 

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Unicorn
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Jun 8, 2015, 4:42 PM

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Post #1 of 30 (3447 views)
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Rule 7.1 Can't Post or Reply Privately

If ever a rule needs to be rewritten it is this one.
According to it a club from outside the National league system can apply to join at step 6.
Clubs in the de facto steps 8 or 9 are outside the NLS so they can apply. But it seems if you are in a de facto step 8 or 9 division attached to a step 7 feeder you can not. See recent decisions.
Also a team could finish second in a step 7 league and if the leagues winning club go up they can not. But in the same season the same vacancy can be filled by a club from a district league or even Sunday football.
Its utterly ridiculous and the rule needs to be serious looked at by the FALC.


wazzafan
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Jun 8, 2015, 5:06 PM

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Post #2 of 30 (3401 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I completely agree that the rule is wrong and needs changing, however, what I will say is that Step 6 is classed as Semi-Pro football, and Step 7 is classed as Amateur. I agree the current procedure for promotion to step 6 is wrong, but based on this, if a club from outside the NLS is willing to take up a Step 6 place (of which there are vacancies in some areas) and are willing to take up the costs and responsibilities that being a Semi-Pro club requires, then the FA will take the easy option in order to fill the gaps as quickly as possible. Also because Step 7 is apart of the NLS, don't the FA have a right to protect those leagues with step 7 status? Making sure a mass exodus of teams from a particular division doesn't happen. I'd guess so with the current rules (top 5, one per league) in place.

Also, some league in isolated areas, such as Lincolnshire and Cumbria, don't have a step 7 league. I realise they are an exeption, but they shouldn't be denied the opportunity to rise the pyramid to step 6 should they wish to do so. Step 7 should cover the entirety of the Country, which it currently doesn't. This needs addressing.



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kivo
First Team Regular


Jun 8, 2015, 5:19 PM

Posts: 1205
Location: Kiveton Park, Sheffield
Team(s): Kiveton Park, Sheffield Wednesday

Post #3 of 30 (3372 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Ridiculous that reserve teams are allowed as high as Step 6 - I'd go as far as saying they shouldn't be allowed at Step 7 either.

The Phoenix Sports reserves decision is farcical. To get to Step 6 you need to either finish in the top 5 of a Step 7 league or apply as a completely new club. They're neither - they finished at the bottom end of a Step 8 (effective) league and jumped up two divisions, with absolutely no justification for the decision whatsoever.

Whitchurch Alport tried the exact same thing and got turned down - why?

The FA needs to get to grips with it all and set down some fair rules that everyone can abide by.


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2015, 5:30 PM

Posts: 19247
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Post #4 of 30 (3351 views)
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Re: [kivo] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

From the NWC website re Whitchurch Alport's rejection:

"In arriving at this decision, the FA has informed us that the (FAL) Committee took into account the following:
∑ The application was not supported by the Shropshire County FA.
∑ The application was not supported by the Mercian Regional League.
∑ There is in place a dedicated promotion path to enable clubs to progress in the National League System."

I reckon the first two were the deal breakers. The third, on its own, would probably not have counted against the club given Rule 7.1 and the NWC's desire to accept the club.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 8, 2015, 5:31 PM)


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2015, 5:32 PM

Posts: 3886
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #5 of 30 (3340 views)
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Re: [kivo] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It appears that Whitchurch Alport, F.C.Elstead and Forest Hill Park were all turned down for the same reason. That being that they are in the lower divisions of a step 7 league. But so are Phoenix Sports reserves. Also how can you be outside the NLS because your in a de facto step 8/9 but when it suits you become part of the NLS again.
There is nothing in that rule that deals with this situation and there needs to be.
I hope all three go through with appeals and win them.
Because they are applying a rule to refuse them entry and that is not what it says.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Jun 8, 2015, 5:43 PM)


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2015, 5:35 PM

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Post #6 of 30 (3334 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Do Elstead and Forest Hill Park have the required ground facilities?


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2015, 5:40 PM

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Post #7 of 30 (3313 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Do Elstead and Forest Hill Park have the required ground facilities?


Yes Forest Hill Park have for a few years shared the Ladywell Arena with Lewisham Borough.
F.C.Elmstead are going to share with Holmesdale of SCEFL.
This will be the first season so that might count against them.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Jun 8, 2015, 5:42 PM)


paulh66
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Jun 8, 2015, 5:49 PM

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Post #8 of 30 (3290 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Interesting. Has Glebe's groundshare at Holmesdale now finished? I heard they were developing their own ground but don't know the timescale for that.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2015, 5:50 PM

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Post #9 of 30 (3286 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
From the NWC website re Whitchurch Alport's rejection:

"In arriving at this decision, the FA has informed us that the (FAL) Committee took into account the following:
∑ The application was not supported by the Shropshire County FA.
∑ The application was not supported by the Mercian Regional League.
∑ There is in place a dedicated promotion path to enable clubs to progress in the National League System."

I reckon the first two were the deal breakers. The third, on its own, would probably not have counted against the club given Rule 7.1 and the NWC's desire to accept the club.


Yes realistically they probably are deal breakers. But they should not be. The FALC are there to run the non league game not to be guided by a County FA. and the league who are losing a member.
They make the rules so write them properly and then apply them.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2015, 5:52 PM

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Post #10 of 30 (3276 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Interesting. Has Glebe's groundshare at Holmesdale now finished? I heard they were developing their own ground but don't know the timescale for that.


Yes Glebe have their own ground now and will play there next season.


Sarumio
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Jun 8, 2015, 6:58 PM

Posts: 6308
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Post #11 of 30 (3183 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It appears that Whitchurch Alport, F.C.Elstead and Forest Hill Park were all turned down for the same reason. That being that they are in the lower divisions of a step 7 league. But so are Phoenix Sports reserves. Also how can you be outside the NLS because your in a de facto step 8/9 but when it suits you become part of the NLS again.
There is nothing in that rule that deals with this situation and there needs to be.
I hope all three go through with appeals and win them.
Because they are applying a rule to refuse them entry and that is not what it says.


Whitchurch Alport are not in a lower division of a Step 7 league - they play in the top division of a league not in the National League System but with promotion and relegation agreements with the WMRL that effectively places it at Step 9.


Unicorn
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Jun 8, 2015, 8:12 PM

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Post #12 of 30 (3037 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

OK Thanks.
So the Mercia league and the County FA are basically blocking them by not giving the move their blessing.
Do they want to jump into the WMRL at step 6 or 7 ?


Richard Rundle
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Jun 8, 2015, 9:15 PM

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Post #13 of 30 (2924 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In whose interest would be to tie rule 7.1 down further? I can't see that it would suit the FA, the leagues or the clubs.


Sarumio
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Jun 8, 2015, 9:24 PM

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Post #14 of 30 (2909 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
OK Thanks.
So the Mercia league and the County FA are basically blocking them by not giving the move their blessing.
Do they want to jump into the WMRL at step 6 or 7 ?


Neither. They applied to join the NWCL Div One (Step 6). If they were to join the WMRL, they could not jump in or leapfrog divisions, They would have to start in Division Two (Step 8).

The Shropshire FA are an abysmal lot and its one of the worst FAs in the land. What sort of FA uses its power to block a member club from progressing. Same with the Mercian Regional League - leagues shouldn't even be able to do that - they are there solely FOR the clubs, not to put pathetic barriers in the way. Shame on the pair of them.


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 8, 2015, 9:46 PM

Posts: 3886
Location: Canterbury
Team(s): Arsenal and South Eastern Football

Post #15 of 30 (2875 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
In whose interest would be to tie rule 7.1 down further? I can't see that it would suit the FA, the leagues or the clubs.


All rules should be clear and fair at the moment this rule is neither. Clubs are being treated differently because of ambiguity. That should not be acceptable to anyone.
If your happy with that fair enough.
I am not.


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jun 8, 2015, 11:47 PM

Posts: 2492
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Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #16 of 30 (2775 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As is often the case with FA Rules, this one has a distinct 'horses for courses' vagueness to it.

To be quite honest, I think that this problem has arisen from a lack of joined-up-thinking with respect to 'that which is NLS' & 'that which is not NLS'.

I believe that there's been some longstanding FA promotion of the idea that non-NLS clubs should seek election to their local NLS step 6 league... covering ALL outside-NLS leagues/divisions ~ and this well established notion began floundering at the time and because of the award of newly-founded step 7 status to the senior-most leagues/divisions then considered directly beneath step 6.

Without rewriting the regulations for the now much smaller group of leagues outwith this expanded NLS, the FA created a rod for their own backs. To have and to have not step 7 status is clearly discriminatory, whichever way round one views the (dis) advantage(s).

On one hand, those leagues with step 7 status have earned a virtual guarantee that one of their top-5 finishers will be promoted every season. Yet on the other hand, those leagues without step 7 status are still allowed to let their members individually seek election to step 6 should they wish to do do - such election gambits not determined by league/divisional status.
While the latter allowance appears illogical at first take - actually, it isn't. It is borne from the fact that from outside the NLS, the lowest NLS division that covers the footprint of (many/most of) these non-NLS leagues is actually only to be found at step 6.

The problem here is only going to be resolved in one way: the current crop of step 7 leagues must expand to take-in teams outwith present step 7 footprints... either by merging with neighbouring non-step-7 leagues; by simpler non-merging, but increasing footprint -or- by dispensation to give non-step-7 competitions equivalent (honorary?) status [that third solution basically preserving the status quo].

The bottom line is simple - if these teams/leagues aren't 'absorbed' into step-7-led competitions, giving their ambitious members opportunity to progress via established channels, then this problem will persist ad infinitum.



Professional cretin.


Veteran
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Jun 9, 2015, 12:09 AM

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Post #17 of 30 (2741 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or

What is absolutely ridiculous is that a team finishing 2nd in a Step 7 league behind a promoted club always has the option of folding and re-forming under a slightly different name , thus applying as a "new" club, and has a good chance of getting in if there is a vacancy.

I don't have local knowledge but I gather from other posts that this is effectively what Phoenix Sports Reserves (ugh !!!!) claim to have done ?


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 9, 2015, 7:57 AM

Posts: 3886
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Post #18 of 30 (2612 views)
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Re: [Veteran] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

This rule and the things that surround it are wrong for various reasons.
Its unfair that only one club can be promoted from step 7 while other clubs from below leapfrog them.
Its unfair that the clubs that can leapfrog them sometimes find themselves blocked by things that are not stated in the rule. Much clarity is needed regarding the position of team in the lower divisions of a step 7 league. At present they are part or not part of the NLS as it suits the FALC.
Its totally wrong that county FAs should have any say in the matter. The FALC either run non league football or they don't.
Its in my opinion unacceptable that a team can resign and then re apply as a new club.That just makes a mockery of the process.
I hope that all the clubs that appeal win because that is the usually the only way to make the FALC take notice. However i think the appeals are now heard by other members of the FALC who were not involved in the original decision.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Jun 9, 2015, 8:02 AM)


Sarumio
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Jun 9, 2015, 8:41 AM

Posts: 6308
Location: Ilminster
Team(s): Salisbury

Post #19 of 30 (2567 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
As is often the case with FA Rules, this one has a distinct 'horses for courses' vagueness to it.

To be quite honest, I think that this problem has arisen from a lack of joined-up-thinking with respect to 'that which is NLS' & 'that which is not NLS'.

I believe that there's been some longstanding FA promotion of the idea that non-NLS clubs should seek election to their local NLS step 6 league... covering ALL outside-NLS leagues/divisions ~ and this well established notion began floundering at the time and because of the award of newly-founded step 7 status to the senior-most leagues/divisions then considered directly beneath step 6.

Without rewriting the regulations for the now much smaller group of leagues outwith this expanded NLS, the FA created a rod for their own backs. To have and to have not step 7 status is clearly discriminatory, whichever way round one views the (dis) advantage(s).

On one hand, those leagues with step 7 status have earned a virtual guarantee that one of their top-5 finishers will be promoted every season. Yet on the other hand, those leagues without step 7 status are still allowed to let their members individually seek election to step 6 should they wish to do do - such election gambits not determined by league/divisional status.
While the latter allowance appears illogical at first take - actually, it isn't. It is borne from the fact that from outside the NLS, the lowest NLS division that covers the footprint of (many/most of) these non-NLS leagues is actually only to be found at step 6.

The problem here is only going to be resolved in one way: the current crop of step 7 leagues must expand to take-in teams outwith present step 7 footprints... either by merging with neighbouring non-step-7 leagues; by simpler non-merging, but increasing footprint -or- by dispensation to give non-step-7 competitions equivalent (honorary?) status [that third solution basically preserving the status quo].

The bottom line is simple - if these teams/leagues aren't 'absorbed' into step-7-led competitions, giving their ambitious members opportunity to progress via established channels, then this problem will persist ad infinitum.


Personally, I believe the only way to stop this is to put every league and every division into an official Step. Then there would be no leagues/divisions that were deemed stepless. So the Mercian Regional League wouldn't just be floating around, it would be officially at Step 9. That way only clubs that are in Step 7 divisions could apply for promotion to Step 6. Clubs in this division would then know that their route to Step 6 entails gaining three promotions (i.e. to WMRL D2, WMRL D1 and then up to the Prem).


acmold
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Jun 9, 2015, 10:50 AM

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Post #20 of 30 (2485 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or

In the case of the Mercian League I don't know why they just don't try (again? ) for step 7 status Cut down on travelling for their clubs that want to progress And would mean clubs would not have to play at a lower standard in the bottom division of the WML when in theory they have gone up This actually applies to a number of leagues and if it were to happen we would end up with many stronger leagues with far less travelling


SuperKev!
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Jun 9, 2015, 11:00 AM

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Post #21 of 30 (2461 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I get a number of requests from clubs outside the NLS. I normally send them the following letter (obviously the dates will now change):


Dear ,


Thank you for your enquiry regarding joining our League for Season 2015/2016.


In order to progress your enquiry, I am writing to request further information regarding your Club which will enable me to seek approval from the Football Associationís Leagues Committee.


Firstly, I would be grateful if you could forward me a copy of the Clubís business plan and/or budget for the 2015/2016 Season. This is so that evidence can be provided to the FA that your Club is on a stable financial footing and is planning for the future.


Next, I will require details of the home ground that you intend to use in Season 2015/2016 along with full details of the security of tenure that your Club have at this venue. I also require confirmation that this ground complies with the relevant national ground grading criteria. If your Club are intending to ground share, then you will also need to provide me with a copy of the ground share agreement duly signed by both parties.


I also need to know which County Football Association your Club is affiliated with and confirmation that the Club have affiliated for Season 2015/2016.


Finally, as Clubs applying from outside the National League System would normally be expected to start at Step 7, I need a written submission from your Club clearly detailing the reasons why you feel you should be considered for a position in a higher Step.


Please ensure that the above information is provided by 31 March 2015 at the latest. Once this is received and considered to be satisfactory, I will forward your details to the Football Association after which you may be asked to attend an interview or discussion with a small group of members from the FA Leagues Committee. Any such meeting would most likely be held in April or early May 2015.


Although our League would be making the application on your Clubís behalf, it should be noted that the final decision rests with the FA Leagues Committee and this League will hold no influence over that decision. I should also advise you that, even if your application is successful, your Club will only be allocated to this League if a vacancy remains after normal promotion and relegation within the National League System has been applied.


I look forward to receiving your supplementary documentation, as requested above, in due course and wish you well for the remainder of this Season.


Yours sincerely,


I don't hear back from very many of them once they've received the above!


rainworthgord
First Team Star

Jun 9, 2015, 12:18 PM

Posts: 2112
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Post #22 of 30 (2397 views)
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Re: [SuperKev!] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That is an excellent letter and will sort the sheep from the goats.
However (pendant alert) the words 'club' and 'league' are common nouns not proper nouns and therefore do not require capital letters.
Sorry, I couldn't resist Tongue


andymac
Youth Team Sub

Jun 9, 2015, 1:27 PM

Posts: 162
Location: Newcastle Staffs
Team(s): Stoke City, Market Drayton Tigers

Post #23 of 30 (2318 views)
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Re: [rainworthgord] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Should that be pedant alert?
Andymac


SuperKev!
First Team Star


Jun 9, 2015, 2:20 PM

Posts: 1721
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Post #24 of 30 (2245 views)
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Re: [rainworthgord] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
However (pendant alert) the words 'club' and 'league' are common nouns not proper nouns and therefore do not require capital letters.
Sorry, I couldn't resist Tongue

I know, but these words are capitalised in this manner in the FA standard rules so I'm just following suit. Angelic


rainworthgord
First Team Star

Jun 9, 2015, 3:54 PM

Posts: 2112
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Post #25 of 30 (2158 views)
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Re: [andymac] Rule 7.1 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Should that be pedant alert?
Andymac

It should indeed. Stupid predictive text strikes again. Unimpressed

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