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Essex question

 

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Unicorn
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Jan 16, 2015, 3:47 PM

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Essex question Can't Post or Reply Privately

It clearly states that the bottom club in each step 5 league will be relegated.
In the case of the Essex senior league relegated to where exactly.
They may have got lucky this year as Sporting Bengal are adrift at the bottom and are used to playing in Kent so they could go into the KIL.
Buts thats not the point.
What would normally happen.


Sarumio
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Jan 16, 2015, 4:03 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It clearly states that the bottom club in each step 5 league will be relegated.
In the case of the Essex senior league relegated to where exactly.
They may have got lucky this year as Sporting Bengal are adrift at the bottom and are used to playing in Kent so they could go into the KIL.
Buts thats not the point.
What would normally happen.


Very good question. I suppose a few of the more Western clubs if they found themselves in bottom spot come May, could go to the SSML D1.

But if no one comes up from below (which obviously they won't) whats the point in relegating anyone. Why choose to run with 19 when you could run again with 20. And the following season do they do the same and drop to 18 just because of country-wide rules?

The only way to solve this anomaly as far as I can see is to create a Step 6 division below the Essex Senior League and fill it with clubs from the Essex Olympian League (any division) that will never get the required ground grading and never have any chance of being promoted to Step 5 anyway. Job sorted!


Unicorn
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Jan 16, 2015, 4:10 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I find it hard to understand why they have not set up a step 6 using the same model as Kent.
Why one and not the other.
But the immediate problem is that at the moment there is not a correct place to relegate a club to as required by their rules.


leohoenig
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Jan 16, 2015, 4:42 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I find it hard to understand why they have not set up a step 6 using the same model as Kent.
Why one and not the other.
But the immediate problem is that at the moment there is not a correct place to relegate a club to as required by their rules.


I think the solution used last time was to ignore the problem, and lo and behold it went away.



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Herb Alpert
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Jan 16, 2015, 5:22 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I find it hard to understand why they have not set up a step 6 using the same model as Kent.
Why one and not the other.



There are very few clubs at Step 7 who are close to having the facilities for step 6 and fewer who want the hassle of either upgrading or groundsharing, The only clubs within the ESL footprint I can think of looking to be promoted are Wadham Lodge, Newbury Forest, and Sporting Hackney.


Mr. T
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Jan 16, 2015, 6:06 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Relegate the league...


Runwell
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Jan 16, 2015, 7:35 PM

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Post #7 of 153 (14161 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It clearly states that the bottom club in each step 5 league will be relegated.
In the case of the Essex senior league relegated to where exactly.
They may have got lucky this year as Sporting Bengal are adrift at the bottom and are used to playing in Kent so they could go into the KIL.
Buts thats not the point.
What would normally happen.


But if no one comes up from below (which obviously they won't).....


I think this season will be an exception.

Wadham Lodge are looking good for at least a top three finish. I suspect they will make the jump this season.

There may be a space anyway, depending what happens with Tower Hamlets.



Last match:
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TJ Sweden
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Jan 16, 2015, 9:05 PM

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Post #8 of 153 (14110 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
It clearly states that the bottom club in each step 5 league will be relegated.
In the case of the Essex senior league relegated to where exactly.
They may have got lucky this year as Sporting Bengal are adrift at the bottom and are used to playing in Kent so they could go into the KIL.
Buts thats not the point.
What would normally happen.


Very good question. I suppose a few of the more Western clubs if they found themselves in bottom spot come May, could go to the SSML D1.

But if no one comes up from below (which obviously they won't) whats the point in relegating anyone. Why choose to run with 19 when you could run again with 20. And the following season do they do the same and drop to 18 just because of country-wide rules?

The only way to solve this anomaly as far as I can see is to create a Step 6 division below the Essex Senior League and fill it with clubs from the Essex Olympian League (any division) that will never get the required ground grading and never have any chance of being promoted to Step 5 anyway. Job sorted!

----------------
Very good question indeed! In ESL history,they have NEVER relegated anyone. And that FA "rule" that every bottom placed club from each Step 5 league should be relegated, has been valid for at least a couple of years now...still NO relegation from ESL (London Bari last year, should have been relegated to SSML1??).

Personally, I agree with other comments here. ESL is not Step 5 worthy IMHO. And in a way, same goes for SCEL, where they have created this KIL Step 6 League that will never be Step 6 ready. In my book, if you haven't a Step 6 League that backs you up, you shouldn't be in Step 5.

As I remember, when the FA did this big reconstruction thingy for the 2012-13 season, they first went for the idea of reducing the Step 5 leagues to twelve, which didn't happen. Pity, that would have solved SO many problems at higher steps. As I see it now, ESL and SCEL, and even SCL, should have been absorbed into other leagues...and from that, maybe a new South/Eastern League could have evolved.



Gray
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Jan 16, 2015, 9:37 PM

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Post #9 of 153 (14091 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Relegate the league...


Exactly, distribute the top 6 at the end of the season & relegate the league with the rest to Step6. It then feeds the ECL / SSML.


007Dale
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Jan 17, 2015, 7:02 AM

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Re: [Gray] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, couldn't agree more


Unicorn
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Jan 17, 2015, 8:54 AM

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Post #11 of 153 (13961 views)
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Re: [TJ Sweden] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What do you mean the KIL will never be ready to be a full step 6 league.
Of course it will.
By this time next year they could easily have 15 or more fully compliant clubs.
Then with a few more concessions over the next couple of seasons it will be up to 22.
Thats the plan and the plan will be made to work.
Somewhere along the line the league will be absorbed and become the second tier of the Southern Counties East.
I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind about it.


Unicorn
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Jan 17, 2015, 9:03 AM

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Re: [007Dale] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The difference in Essex seems to be lack of clubs willing to participate in a step 6.
In Kent there were and are plenty of clubs wanting it to happen but it was impossible to organise it without the FALC committee being very involved.
So they did and the rule book went out of the window and it has not come back through the window yet.

The FALC can organise anything and make it work because they are not bound by their own rules.
So Essex could have a step 6 easily.But you have to have enough clubs willing to get involved in it.


Richard Rundle
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Jan 17, 2015, 9:20 AM

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Post #13 of 153 (13936 views)
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Re: [Gray] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Relegate the league...


Exactly, distribute the top 6 at the end of the season & relegate the league with the rest to Step6. It then feeds the ECL / SSML.



Great. Increasing the footprint of Step 5 leagues. Just what we need. Not.


Gray
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Jan 17, 2015, 4:20 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Relegate the league...


Exactly, distribute the top 6 at the end of the season & relegate the league with the rest to Step6. It then feeds the ECL / SSML.



Great. Increasing the footprint of Step 5 leagues. Just what we need. Not.


Not really as will only affect 2-3 leagues in the SE, one of which is struggling to get enough clubs to fill 2 divisions


SuperKev!
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Jan 19, 2015, 10:45 AM

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Post #15 of 153 (12592 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The difference in Essex seems to be lack of clubs willing to participate in a step 6.
In Kent there were and are plenty of clubs wanting it to happen but it was impossible to organise it without the FALC committee being very involved.
So they did and the rule book went out of the window and it has not come back through the window yet.

The FALC can organise anything and make it work because they are not bound by their own rules.
So Essex could have a step 6 easily.But you have to have enough clubs willing to get involved in it.This was looked at in 2013. Every Saturday club affiliated to the Essex County FA (250+, I believe) was invited to offer an "expression of interest" in joining a Step 6 Division/League. Only 13 clubs responded, ranging from top division of the Essex Olympian League down to the bottom division of the Southend Borough Combination. Those 13 clubs were then sent the four year ground grading plan (exactly the same one used in Kent) and were asked if they were still interested. 3 immediately said no and the other 10 never responded at all. The bottom line, therefore, is that there is next to no interest amongst the clubs in having a Step 6 Division/League in Essex.
With regards to where relegated clubs from the ESL would go, depending on geography it would be Spartan South Midlands Div 1, Eastern Counties Div 1 or Kent Invicta. Alternatively, clubs may choose to drop to Step 7 and join the top division of the Essex Olympian or Middlesex County League.



ladderman
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Jan 21, 2015, 6:38 PM

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Re: [Gray] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's great that people in Sweden and France know so much about the (exact) standards of the ESL, ECL & SSML that they can judge that the seventh best ESL team is worse than the fourth bottom in either of the other two leagues.
Is the Kent League better now it's got a new name and a step 6 division?
You can't punish teams at step 5 for the lack of available clubs to form a step 6 in a particular area. It's illogical and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny either by any appeal panel or in court if a team chose to go that far.
If a streamlining is necessary, and you went for two 22-team step 5 leagues, the fewest number of clubs you could realistically offer the ESL is 12. That would leave 58 clubs across three step 6 feeder leagues. Quite what that achieves, other than increased costs and travel times for all the step 5 clubs, is unclear. But then the people pushing for this aren't the ones facing increased costs and travel times.


Gray
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Jan 21, 2015, 8:54 PM

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It's great that people in Sweden and France know so much about the (exact) standards of the ESL, ECL & SSML that they can judge that the seventh best ESL team is worse than the fourth bottom in either of the other two leagues.
Is the Kent League better now it's got a new name and a step 6 division?
You can't punish teams at step 5 for the lack of available clubs to form a step 6 in a particular area. It's illogical and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny either by any appeal panel or in court if a team chose to go that far.
If a streamlining is necessary, and you went for two 22-team step 5 leagues, the fewest number of clubs you could realistically offer the ESL is 12. That would leave 58 clubs across three step 6 feeder leagues. Quite what that achieves, other than increased costs and travel times for all the step 5 clubs, is unclear. But then the people pushing for this aren't the ones facing increased costs and travel times.


Taking the top 6 was just a number but I don't believe (although no facts like anyone else to prove it) that the bottom half of the ESL is any better playingwise than clubs in Step6 in the surrounding leagues, with no relegation you are bound to get weak teams. So it isn't really illogical. The other solution is of course to split the league in 2 at the end of a season, taking the bottom 12 to create a step 6 league & the remaining top clubs plus a few transferred from the SSML for the Step5 league. The numbers can be gradually increased by redistribution (if there are enough clubs with step5 grading). I don't believe it is in the interest of Essex football to have a gap between steps 5 & 7 where weak clubs can't refocus & those looking to move up have to jump 2 steps - doing nothing shouldn't be an option


Richard Rundle
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Jan 21, 2015, 9:30 PM

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doing nothing shouldn't be an option


Yet it is probably the best option for now. I can't see any great changes that would make things any better for the clubs in the region.


ladderman
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Jan 21, 2015, 10:21 PM

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Re: [Gray] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But your numbers don't work. you're 18 clubs short - that's too many for any gradual redistribution. And you continue to underestimate the strength of the middle of the ESL, I'm not denying the bottom end is poor but that doesn't necessarily mean the top/middle is.


And Mr Rundle's right.


(This post was edited by ladderman on Jan 21, 2015, 10:22 PM)


Sarumio
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Jan 22, 2015, 8:30 AM

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But your numbers don't work. you're 18 clubs short - that's too many for any gradual redistribution. And you continue to underestimate the strength of the middle of the ESL, I'm not denying the bottom end is poor but that doesn't necessarily mean the top/middle is.


And Mr Rundle's right.


In your opinion! There is no right or wrong answer - its just a matter of opinion.


ladderman
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Jan 22, 2015, 8:35 AM

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Re: [Sarumio] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But is your opinion actually based on watching the leagues concerned?


SuperKev!
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And you continue to underestimate the strength of the middle of the ESL, I'm not denying the bottom end is poor but that doesn't necessarily mean the top/middle is. I think it's dangerous to base any decisions on who are currently perceived to be the strongest or weakest sides in a League. Personally, I think the model that Bowers & Pitsea FC have used is what every club should follow - i.e. spend any spare money you have on the facilities first, then worry about strengthening the team. That's what they've done and after a few seasons of finishing in the bottom three or four they are flying this season and, with games in hand, are pushing for a top three spot. Had the FA done what some are suggesting two or three years ago, Bowers could well have found themselves demoted to Step 6 purely as a consequence of doing things in (what many on here would probably consider to be) the right order.
Conversely, Clapton FC are presently going great guns in the top six of the ESL, which is excellent to see, but for many years were a perennial bottom two side in the Isthmian before being almost ever presents in the bottom two of the ESL since their relegation. Clapton have developed a large student-based support over the last 18 months or so and this undoubtedly has encouraged them to play better and gain better results but will those supporters be around for the long term or will they disappear as quickly as they appeared? If they go, will Clapton revert to being a bottom two side again or can they maintain the momentum? The answer is nobody knows. Therefore, how can anybody turn around now and say, on the back of a single good season, that Clapton should be kept at Step 5 whereas current bottom six sides such as Enfield 1893 FC (denied promotion as Champions three seasons ago on ground grading issues) and Southend Manor FC (who reached the 4th qualifying round of the FA Cup in the same season) should be demoted to Step 6?
I agree with an earlier statement that the two step jump between Step 5 and Step 7 is not good for Essex football. However, doing nothing is the best option at the moment because, until enough clubs can be persuaded to form a Step 6 League, nothing is the only viable option available (in my opinion!).



windydcfc
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Jan 22, 2015, 10:26 AM

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Re: [SuperKev!] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is the ECL being propped up, to the detriment of the ESL. If the ESL covered all of Essex then it would almost have enough team to create a step 6 league. Also this seasons step 7 applicants, that could be placed in either of these leagues are Essex based teams. Maybe if the ECL had a smaller footprint, it might actually gain interest from teams that baulk at the idea of traveling long distances and poor transport network.




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ladderman
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Re: [windydcfc] Essex question [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There's certainly an argument that all the Essex step 5 clubs should play in the ESL but there's only three in the ECL - counting Felixstowe & Walton would be tenuous - plus Saffron Walden in Div 1. Such a move wouldn't get close to solving the (perceived) problem. Adding the A10 corridor clubs (Hertford, St Margaretsbury, Hoddesdon & Hillingdon) would have a similar effect numbers-wise but would make more sense geographically. If you add in Broxbourne and Wodson from Div 1 you at least begin to build the numbers for a step 6 division. But the problem remains filling it up - unless you want to go down the reserve team route.


Sarumio
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Jan 22, 2015, 11:12 AM

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In Reply To
But is your opinion actually based on watching the leagues concerned?


I haven't voiced an opinion one way or the other in this thread! My comment was in reply to you stating that 'Mr Rundle is right'. which ins't a fact, its an opinion.

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