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keneastlancs
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Dec 25, 2014, 10:17 PM

Posts: 565
Location: Darwen Lancashire
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Don't know how true this is but i've heard today from a source that for season 2016-2017 (season after next) the conference North and south divisions (step2) will be increased to 24 teams each. The FA and conference have requested this in order to start to redress the imbalance at this level and below of northern teams they have also been discussing again culling the number of leagues at step 5 and/0r 6. (my source was not sure how many leagues would go but suggested AT LEAST 1 league is expected to go this will include getting rid of reserve teams from these levels)

I have been thinking what exactly is meant by 'addressing the northern imbalance' and how they would redress this.

One solution I have come up with if this is the case is to promote 4 teams from the northern premier for 1 season only with only 1 promoted via each of the southern premier and Isthmian premier (total 6 clubs) relegating just 1 from both of the 2 step 2 leagues therefore they would HAVE to move the Lowerstoft's, Oxford's and Gloucester's of this world (if still in the league then) from North to south. with adjusted promotion/relegation between level 3 and 4 accordingly.

Below I think this would then help the Northern League to properly become part of the pyramid as I feel that to redress the imbalance and to cover the 4 extra teams needed in step 4 then they would promote a total of 5 clubs up on mass (4 extra) from the Northern League whilst only promoting the usual 1 from the other 13 step 5 clubs and transferring clubs North to south as necessary. If the Northern League do promote on mass (I'm thinking possibly Consett, Shildon, Dunston UTS, Durham and West Auckland for arguments sake) and join Spennymoor, Darlington, Scarborough (if these don't get promoted) and Bishop Auckland (Hopefully this year) plus Kendal not a million miles away, (Blyth, Whitby and Workington 1 level above) then the northern clubs would feel extremely happy to now be a part of the set up. thus dragging northern division 1 north truly north and sending the most southerly teams to 1 south and from 1 south to southern 1 central etc.

I know this then might impact on the northern league numbers for a couple of years but surely it would be for the better good.

Has anyone else heard of this rumour of increasing level 2?

Would it be fair to promote for one season only more from northern premier than the other step 3 leagues?

What do people think about my solution of fixing this imbalance if this is the case?

I haven't yet thought about the second part of what I was told. Which league if any will go? by getting rid of the reserves and promoting these extra 4 clubs would this free up enough room for the clubs in the league that's going to be accommodated elsewhere or would demotions to step 7 happen?


(This post was edited by keneastlancs on Dec 25, 2014, 10:20 PM)


windydcfc
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Dec 25, 2014, 10:25 PM

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Four leagues at step 3, has too be a must! I think that this is the main priority. Mr TwoU knows something and as yet he has kept silent.


Unicorn
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Dec 26, 2014, 8:25 AM

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Post #3 of 111 (15185 views)
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I would think that all of the above and more has been discussed at length by the FALC.
Its easy providing the Conference want it to increase to 24 North and South.
The rest which is the mechanics of it will run into resistance. For example this year the Northern League will be lucky to promote one club never mind four. You can not just scrap leagues. Based on what the FALC had to do with reserve teams at step 5 it would appear that they can not just ban reserve teams at step 6. All they can do is stop more being promoted.
To create a situation where four more are admitted to the Conference it would mean promoting more than one team from some of the Step 5 leagues. The clubs will like that but the step 5 leagues will not.
Handing out another 4 step 4 reprieves to increase numbers would meet with disapproval as well from some quarters.
Yes i am sure the FALC have plans but as they have found in the past they are not always that easy to implement.


(This post was edited by Unicorn on Dec 26, 2014, 8:28 AM)


ladderman
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Dec 26, 2014, 11:15 AM

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Post #4 of 111 (15086 views)
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I'm not against 24 team leagues at step 2, we don't actually play that much football - as it stands Stortford don't have a single midweek game (apart from Easter Monday) in the second half of the season. The vast majority of players are paid weekly/monthly rather than per game and although crowds are lower midweek, they're still at a level where games make a profit.

But it only addresses the "northern problem" if the FA have the balls to push through a move that treats the NPL more favourably than the other two step 3 leagues - especially as there are Southern League sides who could happily operate in Conference North. Certainly your idea of cutting the IL/SL down to a single promotion place each for a year while increasing the size of the divisions above is a non-starter. I think the best you could hope for is two down from the step 2 leagues, four up from the NPL and two up from the SL/IL for a year - and that might make very little difference in the long run.

Personally I think far too many clubs have been moved up from Vase level to step 4 to consider adding extra divisions at step 3 or 4. En masse promotions from the Northern League never seem to work/happen.


Mister TwoU
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Dec 26, 2014, 12:22 PM

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Four leagues at step 3, has too be a must! I think that this is the main priority. Mr TwoU knows something and as yet he has kept silent.


Sadly, I know nothing of any decisions FALC may (not) have made recently. My tiny knowledge is merely being aware of one or two proposals having been forwarded to them for their perusal - none of which would bear any agreement with this latest nugget from the O/P!
Indeed, that which I've become aware of largely calls for the 'compression' of Steps, more divisions per level, and concomitant reduction in numbers of teams per division. Refer to E&EFred's plan in the "is this a solution" thread in this Section.

Truly, I know pretty much nowt more!




Professional cretin.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 26, 2014, 1:06 PM

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Post #6 of 111 (15013 views)
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Four leagues at step 3, has too be a must! I think that this is the main priority. Mr TwoU knows something and as yet he has kept silent.


Sadly, I know nothing of any decisions FALC may (not) have made recently. My tiny knowledge is merely being aware of one or two proposals having been forwarded to them for their perusal - none of which would bear any agreement with this latest nugget from the O/P!
Indeed, that which I've become aware of largely calls for the 'compression' of Steps, more divisions per level, and concomitant reduction in numbers of teams per division. Refer to E&EFred's plan in the "is this a solution" thread in this Section.

Truly, I know pretty much nowt more!

Could the little bit that you know, include a Midlands league at step 3 and with this 18-20 sized leagues at step 3-4-5-6?


Unicorn
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Dec 26, 2014, 3:59 PM

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Post #7 of 111 (14953 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Changes to structure [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

18 to 20 at step 3 and 4?
No . Don't forget who basically control the FALC.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 26, 2014, 4:25 PM

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18 to 20 at step 3 and 4?
No . Don't forget who basically control the FALC.

Ladderman posted that their wasn't enough teams to create another step 3 league and then possibly 2 more step 4 leagues! I agree with him! But Mister TwoU mentioned about smaller leagues! If the FA want to sort the North/South imbalance, then the easiest way would be too create a Midlands league, that feeds into the CN! Without promoting 60 plus clubs at once(which is ridiculous)! Then reduce the size of the leagues to 18 at step 3 & 4(increasing them to 20, as and when)! Promote 4 teams up to step 2 and if my calculations are correct, you only need to find 16 teams and I think this is doable! But they would've to find these 16 teams from the North/Midlands to make it work IMO!


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Dec 26, 2014, 4:35 PM)


Unicorn
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Dec 26, 2014, 4:40 PM

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Post #9 of 111 (14925 views)
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What i mean is that it seems to me that the FA take very little notice of non league football and basically just rubber stamp decisions made by the FALC.
The main voices on the FALC are the Northern Premier,Southern and Ryman leagues.
Any solution that involves them reducing the size of their divisions i can not believe will get their support.


Ronald Price
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Dec 27, 2014, 10:47 AM

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Probably not the leagues' management committees but the clubs themselves would NOT vote for such a reduction in home games. Historically this contributed to one of the earliest rejections of restructuring - Hardaker's Pattern for Football. For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.

I think I was dreaming but a solution remains in a joint approach for England, Scotland and Wales. FIFA / UEFA could not interfere as there are plenty of cross border movements since the nation states proliferated.

For example: Northern League strengthening Lowland League ... Devon / Cornwall - Welsh Premiership whose northern clubs come back to Lancashire and Cheshire.

Its alright I am awake NOW and in the real world !!!!



Ron Price


derekn
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Dec 27, 2014, 11:57 AM

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Post #11 of 111 (14445 views)
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Can you explain your exclamation marks? I assume they're not intentional.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 27, 2014, 12:29 PM

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Can you explain your exclamation marks? I assume they're not intentional.

Grammar Police?



ladderman
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Dec 27, 2014, 1:00 PM

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Post #13 of 111 (14396 views)
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Quote
For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.


For clarification, the plan was for five 20-team divisions and the League Cup to make up for some of the lost league fixtures. The clubs decided to just go with the league cup. You're right that the clubs won't want a cut in league games (and increasing step 2 while decreasing steps 3 & 4 is fairly nonsensical) especially in an era where most cup competitions are treated with contempt.


keneastlancs
Reserve Team Regular

Dec 27, 2014, 1:37 PM

Posts: 565
Location: Darwen Lancashire
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Post #14 of 111 (14360 views)
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For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.


For clarification, the plan was for five 20-team divisions and the League Cup to make up for some of the lost league fixtures. The clubs decided to just go with the league cup. You're right that the clubs won't want a cut in league games (and increasing step 2 while decreasing steps 3 & 4 is fairly nonsensical) especially in an era where most cup competitions are treated with contempt.
But they are not decreasing steps 3 and 4 - from what I heard and put previously they are increasing step 2 by 4 teams and bringing in an extra 4 teams from step 5 to counterbalance the shortfall. (most likely I suggested the northern league) - there are then possible reductions of leagues at level 5/6 by reducing the reserves teams and the extra 4 above.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 27, 2014, 1:47 PM

Posts: 10389
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

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In Reply To

Quote
For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.


For clarification, the plan was for five 20-team divisions and the League Cup to make up for some of the lost league fixtures. The clubs decided to just go with the league cup. You're right that the clubs won't want a cut in league games (and increasing step 2 while decreasing steps 3 & 4 is fairly nonsensical) especially in an era where most cup competitions are treated with contempt.
But they are not decreasing steps 3 and 4 - from what I heard and put previously they are increasing step 2 by 4 teams and bringing in an extra 4 teams from step 5 to counterbalance the shortfall. (most likely I suggested the northern league) - there are then possible reductions of leagues at level 5/6 by reducing the reserves teams and the extra 4 above.

How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance! What is more nonsensical, trying to create a Midlands league and its feeders, or keep the status quo and potentially have teams like BSFC playing in the North! Now that is nonsensical! I never said they were going to create a Midlands league! It just seems the more logical thing and if you or Ladderman have a better idea, well let's see it and we can all discuss it in a sensible manner!


derekn
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:28 PM

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Post #16 of 111 (14321 views)
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In Reply To
Can you explain your exclamation marks? I assume they're not intentional.

Grammar Police?


Not really. It just makes it hard to work out what you mean sometimes.


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Dec 27, 2014, 2:37 PM

Posts: 10389
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #17 of 111 (14309 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Can you explain your exclamation marks? I assume they're not intentional.

Grammar Police?


Not really. It just makes it hard to work out what you mean sometimes.

You struggle to work out what I mean, because of a debatable exclamation mark? All I can do is hope that one day you can find it in your heart too forgive me!


stugg93
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:40 PM

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What they need to do is promote 4 NPL clubs to CN, 2 SL & 2 IL, and only relegate the bottom team for one season. Then reduce step 3 to 20 teams and split them between 4 leagues by introducing a Midlands League, and then have 8 step 4 leagues of 18 teams, with the aim to increase them to 20 or 22 over a number of years. That way at least initially there is only actually 20 extra teams at step 2, 3 and 4 altogether which is manageable. These extra 20 teams should also see extra teams chosen from the NL (5 or 6) to try and get the NPL more northernly. Smile Of course when did common sense have anything to do with decision making...


windydcfc
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Dec 27, 2014, 2:44 PM

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What they need to do is promote 4 NPL clubs to CN, 2 SL & 2 IL, and only relegate the bottom team for one season. Then reduce step 3 to 20 teams and split them between 4 leagues by introducing a Midlands League, and then have 8 step 4 leagues of 18 teams, with the aim to increase them to 20 or 22 over a number of years. That way at least initially there is only actually 20 extra teams at step 2, 3 and 4 altogether which is manageable. These extra 20 teams should also see extra teams chosen from the NL (5 or 6) to try and get the NPL more northernly. Smile Of course when did common sense have anything to do with decision making...

That is a version of what I was suggesting! What would be interesting is what the perennial naysayer has in his locker, in the way of an idea!


keneastlancs
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Dec 27, 2014, 3:59 PM

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Post #20 of 111 (14252 views)
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Quote
For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.


For clarification, the plan was for five 20-team divisions and the League Cup to make up for some of the lost league fixtures. The clubs decided to just go with the league cup. You're right that the clubs won't want a cut in league games (and increasing step 2 while decreasing steps 3 & 4 is fairly nonsensical) especially in an era where most cup competitions are treated with contempt.
But they are not decreasing steps 3 and 4 - from what I heard and put previously they are increasing step 2 by 4 teams and bringing in an extra 4 teams from step 5 to counterbalance the shortfall. (most likely I suggested the northern league) - there are then possible reductions of leagues at level 5/6 by reducing the reserves teams and the extra 4 above.

How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance! What is more nonsensical, trying to create a Midlands league and its feeders, or keep the status quo and potentially have teams like BSFC playing in the North! Now that is nonsensical! I never said they were going to create a Midlands league! It just seems the more logical thing and if you or Ladderman have a better idea, well let's see it and we can all discuss it in a sensible manner!
if all 4 as I suggested move up from level 3 northern premier with 1 southern and 1 isthmian 6 teams get promoted if 1 relegated from each of step 2 you will get extra northern teams and then if as is likely this year with (Redditch) the southern team may also likely move north (and maybe an extra from conference national) so if more northern based teams are promoted the southern teams in the Conference Northern ie lowestoft, oxford et al - will be moved south so it is a 'start to the imbalance' which is the statement that was quoted to me.



keneastlancs
Reserve Team Regular

Dec 27, 2014, 4:03 PM

Posts: 565
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Post #21 of 111 (14246 views)
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What they need to do is promote 4 NPL clubs to CN, 2 SL & 2 IL, and only relegate the bottom team for one season. Then reduce step 3 to 20 teams and split them between 4 leagues by introducing a Midlands League, and then have 8 step 4 leagues of 18 teams, with the aim to increase them to 20 or 22 over a number of years. That way at least initially there is only actually 20 extra teams at step 2, 3 and 4 altogether which is manageable. These extra 20 teams should also see extra teams chosen from the NL (5 or 6) to try and get the NPL more northernly. Smile Of course when did common sense have anything to do with decision making...
if they promote 4 2 2 as you suggest relgating 1 and 1 that will not give the 4 extra teams for level 2 just 2 extra teams so it may have to be 4 up from NPL 1 Sl and 1 IL with 1 relegated from each level 2 league (2 teams)



ladderman
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Dec 27, 2014, 4:26 PM

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How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance?


It doesn't unless the FA have the spine to treat the Conf N/NPL more favourably than Conf S/SL/IL for a season. Short of all four extra club coming from north of Birmingham you could still end up with at least one of Lowestoft/Oxford/Gloucester in Conf N which would make it all fairly pointless.
If the point increasing the step divisions to 24 clubs is so they can relegate four sides each into one of four step 3 divisions, there's some logic to it. if you went with four 22-team step 3 divisions and six 20 team step 4 divisions you've only got to increase the total number of step 2-4 divisions from 252 to 256. But if you want eight step 4 divisions you're once again raiding step 5 in a big way. I don't believe more than a handful of clubs at the level we're talking about want less than 38 league games per season, and I don't see step 3 being willing to relegate four teams from divisions of less than 22 team - recent history has shown the opposite to be true.


windydcfc
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Dec 27, 2014, 4:38 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Quote
For those too young to remember 5 Football League Divisions of 20 clubs. Instead they opted for the League Cup which is still with us five decades later.


For clarification, the plan was for five 20-team divisions and the League Cup to make up for some of the lost league fixtures. The clubs decided to just go with the league cup. You're right that the clubs won't want a cut in league games (and increasing step 2 while decreasing steps 3 & 4 is fairly nonsensical) especially in an era where most cup competitions are treated with contempt.
But they are not decreasing steps 3 and 4 - from what I heard and put previously they are increasing step 2 by 4 teams and bringing in an extra 4 teams from step 5 to counterbalance the shortfall. (most likely I suggested the northern league) - there are then possible reductions of leagues at level 5/6 by reducing the reserves teams and the extra 4 above.

How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance! What is more nonsensical, trying to create a Midlands league and its feeders, or keep the status quo and potentially have teams like BSFC playing in the North! Now that is nonsensical! I never said they were going to create a Midlands league! It just seems the more logical thing and if you or Ladderman have a better idea, well let's see it and we can all discuss it in a sensible manner!
if all 4 as I suggested move up from level 3 northern premier with 1 southern and 1 isthmian 6 teams get promoted if 1 relegated from each of step 2 you will get extra northern teams and then if as is likely this year with (Redditch) the southern team may also likely move north (and maybe an extra from conference national) so if more northern based teams are promoted the southern teams in the Conference Northern ie lowestoft, oxford et al - will be moved south so it is a 'start to the imbalance' which is the statement that was quoted to me.

But that will sort it out for one season and then what? When the SLP had teams from well North of Birmingham, sticking with the status quo would've be ok'ish'! If they over promote from the NPL, then teams like Corby/Kettering*/Bedworth*(*if promoted) will have to be moved from the SLP-NPL to make up the numbers! With the NL struggling to promote teams year in year out, you'll end up with a NPL that looks like the CN does right now and the SLP/IPL both being completely Southern biased. So if the FA want to sort out the Southern biased they must have a serious plan apart from promoting an extra 4 teams. The FA should have foreseen this would happen, the fact their are more step 5 leagues in the South and every year that goes by it just gets worse! The 2 suggestions that I've posted before, are the fabled Midlands league at step 3 and to shunt the UCL northwards to promote straight into one of the potential Midlands step 4 Leagues!




windydcfc
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Dec 27, 2014, 4:49 PM

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How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance?


It doesn't unless the FA have the spine to treat the Conf N/NPL more favourably than Conf S/SL/IL for a season. Short of all four extra club coming from north of Birmingham you could still end up with at least one of Lowestoft/Oxford/Gloucester in Conf N which would make it all fairly pointless.
If the point increasing the step divisions to 24 clubs is so they can relegate four sides each into one of four step 3 divisions, there's some logic to it. if you went with four 22-team step 3 divisions and six 20 team step 4 divisions you've only got to increase the total number of step 2-4 divisions from 252 to 256. But if you want eight step 4 divisions you're once again raiding step 5 in a big way. I don't believe more than a handful of clubs at the level we're talking about want less than 38 league games per season, and I don't see step 3 being willing to relegate four teams from divisions of less than 22 team - recent history has shown the opposite to be true.

If you look at the NWCL/NCEL/MFA they must be able to promote 4/5 teams each at least, all with decent ground grading. If part of a real restructure was to engage with the NL teams and show them that if they accept a large amount of promotions. Then the NPL could actually be for Northern teams and not Midlands or even North Midlands teams. The CN is a joke and the FA need to sort it out ASAP and why they haven't done before now is beyond me!



keneastlancs
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Dec 27, 2014, 6:29 PM

Posts: 565
Location: Darwen Lancashire
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How does moving an extra 4 clubs up to step 2, sort out the North/South imbalance?


It doesn't unless the FA have the spine to treat the Conf N/NPL more favourably than Conf S/SL/IL for a season. Short of all four extra club coming from north of Birmingham you could still end up with at least one of Lowestoft/Oxford/Gloucester in Conf N which would make it all fairly pointless.
If the point increasing the step divisions to 24 clubs is so they can relegate four sides each into one of four step 3 divisions, there's some logic to it. if you went with four 22-team step 3 divisions and six 20 team step 4 divisions you've only got to increase the total number of step 2-4 divisions from 252 to 256. But if you want eight step 4 divisions you're once again raiding step 5 in a big way. I don't believe more than a handful of clubs at the level we're talking about want less than 38 league games per season, and I don't see step 3 being willing to relegate four teams from divisions of less than 22 team - recent history has shown the opposite to be true.

If you look at the NWCL/NCEL/MFA they must be able to promote 4/5 teams each at least, all with decent ground grading. If part of a real restructure was to engage with the NL teams and show them that if they accept a large amount of promotions. Then the NPL could actually be for Northern teams and not Midlands or even North Midlands teams. The CN is a joke and the FA need to sort it out ASAP and why they haven't done before now is beyond me!

well hopefully this is what they are starting to think about for 2016-2017 season at least its a start promoting 4 teams - what they do after that we will have to see



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