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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Lowestoft Town

 

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buncranaboy
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May 26, 2014, 9:17 PM

Posts: 17959
Location: South Birmingham
Team(s): Barnstoneworth United; Bostock Stanley

Post #51 of 68 (3661 views)
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Any non-geographic system is non-representative. They force players of equal skill-levels to have to play at different levels of the system on an arbitrarily geographic basis.
Bearing in mind that the notion represents a real restraint of trade thereby; albeit a relatively minor one in most cases; causing unnecessary differences in available wage-earning potential simply because more/less people live near your base of operation means such a system should never see the light of day.

Yes, that system has caused real problems in Spain and Germany where the better players are clearly prevented from rising to the top. What do they know, eh! Much better to have multiple divisions on the same level in (say) the south east where attendances match those in the north three divisions lower. Plus has the added bonus of keeping all the spreadsheet boys and reprieve calculators happy Crazy


PaulC
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May 26, 2014, 10:29 PM

Posts: 11671
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #52 of 68 (3522 views)
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Of course there will be geographical drift in England because of population drift / increase, the difference between the population north and south of the Severn - Wash line increases with every Census. Surely a pretty fare north - south split is on population which at the moment the Conference North and South has. In 30 or 40 years time unless something is done the population of the South East and London will be more than the rest of the country.



Nonsense. You're obsessed with the league split being based on population. I've replied to this a number of times on other threads and I don't think you've yet replied

......which is why I've always had a problem with acmold's suggestion that the pyramid should be weighted to reflect population - it's got nothing to do with it. The areas of heavier population should merely have a deeper local pyramid with each geographical region having similar promotion opportunites. It also works in Spain at "non-league" level, i.e. the Tercera leagues where the Balearics (pop just over 1 million) for example have a tercera on a par with Catalunya (population 7.5 million). The idea that England should have more SE based leagues at the same level simply because more people live there is what's distorting the pyramid


Yes and no. At the moment the southern half of England has more leagues than are justified by population and as long as at Step 5 promotion is restricted to one club per league then the distortion higher up is likely to get greater by the year.

Now if we went the whole hog and adopted the Spanish system of promotion at Division 3 and 2B I would be with you all the way. Promotion is not skewed in favour of one part of the country. Instead the top teams in a division have to prove themselves against the top teams of other divisions. The better teams from stronger divisions are more likely to get promotion at the expense of weaker divisions - 4 teams could go up from one division and none from another. Now if that distorts the pyramid it is distorted by footballing ability - not by the luck of the postcode. And I would advocate the ties being drawn on a national basis with the same advantage given to champions that Spain offers.


PaulC
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May 26, 2014, 10:43 PM

Posts: 11671
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #53 of 68 (3489 views)
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I have also said many times is the South East actually at fault or is it the North for not creating or asking the F.A. to create more leagues at step 5, the NCE, NWC and Northern League cover areas that should / could be step 4 in status / area, as does the Midland Alliance. You are the one that (and I agree) that we should have more leagues at each step. If you had 8 leagues at step 4 maybe things would work out better within a few years.

Going back to the North - South (A & B, 1 & 2) split at step 2 you are never going to get a perfect split as you can't control who comes down from above. If you look at the potential landmass covered by the two divisions next season how far are they off of a 50 / 50 split on mass.


The problem with the NCE and NWC (and for that matter the MidAll) is that they are the consequence of league mergers. I believe they should either be demerged or each split into North and South Sections. I would go for 18 feeders at Step 5 - the split of NWC and NCE provides 2 extra leagues, I would upgrade the SWL (with a little reorganisation alongside WL) and that would be the 17th. Effectively 7 north of the Severn/Wash and 10 to the south. The north would be due another league to make up to 18 - perhaps a reorganisation of the East and West Midlands to create two Step 5 leagues An 8/10 split along the Severn/Wash is not perfect but is tolerable and a vast improvement on the current 5/9 split.


The imbalances at Step 2-4 are not the problem - they are the consequence of Step 5 being skewed. That's where the problem lies. The only adjustment I would make would be to Step 4 and the promotion of 8 NL clubs en bloc,.


Mister TwoU
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May 26, 2014, 11:29 PM

Posts: 2492
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #54 of 68 (3423 views)
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Yes, that system has caused real problems in Spain and Germany where the better players are clearly prevented from rising to the top. What do they know, eh! Much better to have multiple divisions on the same level in (say) the south east where attendances match those in the north three divisions lower. Plus has the added bonus of keeping all the spreadsheet boys and reprieve calculators happy Crazy



Chalk and cheese. If in doubt - obfuscate.



Professional cretin.


hawkwind
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May 27, 2014, 2:18 AM

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Post #55 of 68 (3362 views)
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The problem with the NCE and NWC (and for that matter the MidAll) is that they are the consequence of league mergers. I believe they should either be demerged or each split into North and South Sections. I would go for 18 feeders at Step 5 - the split of NWC and NCE provides 2 extra leagues, I would upgrade the SWL (with a little reorganisation alongside WL) and that would be the 17th. Effectively 7 north of the Severn/Wash and 10 to the south. The north would be due another league to make up to 18 - perhaps a reorganisation of the East and West Midlands to create two Step 5 leagues An 8/10 split along the Severn/Wash is not perfect but is tolerable and a vast improvement on the current 5/9 split.


The imbalances at Step 2-4 are not the problem - they are the consequence of Step 5 being skewed. That's where the problem lies. The only adjustment I would make would be to Step 4 and the promotion of 8 NL clubs en bloc,.


Actually Step 5 is no longer skewed. That was resolved last summer. The expansion of each of the Isthmian Step 4 divisions to 24 clubs with three down means that Step 4 (and that is the only step which has a heavy imbalance) should auto-correct over time. It will if both the FA resist the temptation to interfere, and the number of clubs opting out/going under is reduced to zero. That isn't the case though. 2012-13 Abingdon United and Sholing became extra 'relegations', and this season Vauxhall Motors, Worksop Town and Hinckley United have all gone from above Step 4. So instead of nine Isthmian territory clubs being relegated from Step 4 (three from the Southern League) that number currently stands at seven.

When Hucknall Town, Woodford United, Winchester City, Eastwood Town, Cammell Laird and Wakefield are added to the above the problem looks to me to be everywhere except the South East.

Adding another four leagues at Step 5 as you suggest? There's a lot of sense in that for clubs operating at Step 5, but it will resolve nothing above that level, and would have a negative impact unless at the same time each of the NPL and Southern League Step 4 divisions change to relegate three clubs (and if that has to be accompanied by an increase to 24 clubs in one hit then ensure the extra clubs are taken from everywhere except the SouthEast).

The problem that needs addressing is how to ensure that 276 out of 276 clubs in Steps 1 through 4 are both sportingly committed to playing regional football and financially able to do so. A cocktail of measures will do the trick, providing both ingredients and doses are correct. Does anyone have the recipe?


acmold
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May 27, 2014, 8:51 AM

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Post #56 of 68 (3211 views)
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I have also said many times is the South East actually at fault or is it the North for not creating or asking the F.A. to create more leagues at step 5, the NCE, NWC and Northern League cover areas that should / could be step 4 in status / area, as does the Midland Alliance. You are the one that (and I agree) that we should have more leagues at each step. If you had 8 leagues at step 4 maybe things would work out better within a few years.

Going back to the North - South (A & B, 1 & 2) split at step 2 you are never going to get a perfect split as you can't control who comes down from above. If you look at the potential landmass covered by the two divisions next season how far are they off of a 50 / 50 split on mass.


The problem with the NCE and NWC (and for that matter the MidAll) is that they are the consequence of league mergers. I believe they should either be demerged or each split into North and South Sections. I would go for 18 feeders at Step 5 - the split of NWC and NCE provides 2 extra leagues, I would upgrade the SWL (with a little reorganisation alongside WL) and that would be the 17th. Effectively 7 north of the Severn/Wash and 10 to the south. The north would be due another league to make up to 18 - perhaps a reorganisation of the East and West Midlands to create two Step 5 leagues An 8/10 split along the Severn/Wash is not perfect but is tolerable and a vast improvement on the current 5/9 split.


The imbalances at Step 2-4 are not the problem - they are the consequence of Step 5 being skewed. That's where the problem lies. The only adjustment I would make would be to Step 4 and the promotion of 8 NL clubs en bloc,.

I have been saying more or less the above for a long time, including the bit about the SWP. If all step five leagues were more like those in the South East many of the problems would vanish in 5 or so years. The NWC and NCE are mergers dating to 1982 when they were step three in the Pyramid. If we still had 6 step four leagues or even 9 with fewer clubs 18 step five leagues would easily fit into that. The Northern League on one hand you have to admire them for sticking to their principles but on the other hand by doing so they have partly skewered the Pyramid, so you can't really blame other areas for filling the gaps that should / could have been filled by Northern League clubs. As suggested above if you added 8 Northern League clubs to the current six step 4 leagues (which would make 24 in each, again not ideal but a start) the ripple effect would move most of the West Midlands clubs back into the Southern League at step four.


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


May 27, 2014, 8:56 AM

Posts: 10964
Location: Longton, Stoke-on-Trent - Ar Bay a Brummie
Team(s): WBA, FC Saarbruecken, Brierley Hill Alliance (RIP)

Post #57 of 68 (3207 views)
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Yes, put less sugar in your pudding, 276 teams at those levels is too many. If we do want that many teams then we should increase the number of divisions to 15.

The current system appears to be OK for most clubs, whatever system is used someone won't be happy. We like big divisions in this country and midweek football for some reason.

I don't see a groundswell of support for a big change by the clubs, I'm sure they'd kick up a stink if it was that much of an issue.



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


prorege
Man City Transfer Target!


May 27, 2014, 9:26 AM

Posts: 6991
Location: Kingdom of Fife
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Post #58 of 68 (3166 views)
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Chalk and cheese. If in doubt - obfuscate.

Obfuscation? Isn't that your thing?

Anyway, mip asked you a question above. See you at Bo'ness on Saturday? Pint in the Fisons maybe?




Mister TwoU
First Team Star


May 27, 2014, 11:35 AM

Posts: 2492
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #59 of 68 (3008 views)
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Generally, I've been completely ignoring the comments of one or two of you lot taking the p*ss here, but witholding ain't good for my blood pressure - so which bit of the consequences of 'I accidentally fell under a boat I was repairing and was partly crushed by it' are you having difficulty understanding? I don't generally like speaking about my everyday life, but maybe these trespasses upon privacy might cease if I explain a bit not requiring joined-up thinking?

Dude, I let it be known about my stupid accident while I was still hospitalised, waay back in November '12 and that I've been completely off my feet and effectively housebound for 18-months I thought was known here. I haven't bothered updating more than just a few trusted acquaintances here with boring details of the later complications, travelling blood-clots & phlebitis and recurrent cellulitis - because it's none of your damn business, and I don't feel happy in being forced to have to discuss it now.

Besides, I've not been living in town since January, and it looks like I won't get back anytime soon. I've had to live with my sis & her family in the English Midlands since then, and rent-out the house to help cover ongoing private physio - for which insurance coverage ran out a while back.

'Got it' now? Quit the pestering people.



Professional cretin.


mip
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May 27, 2014, 11:53 AM

Posts: 9850
Location: Odense
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #60 of 68 (2957 views)
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Generally, I've been completely ignoring the comments of one or two of you lot taking the p*ss here, but witholding ain't good for my blood pressure - so which bit of the consequences of 'I accidentally fell under a boat I was repairing and was partly crushed by it' are you having difficulty understanding? I don't generally like speaking about my everyday life, but maybe these trespasses upon privacy might cease if I explain a bit not requiring joined-up thinking?

Dude, I let it be known about my stupid accident while I was still hospitalised, waay back in November '12 and that I've been completely off my feet and effectively housebound for 18-months I thought was known here. I haven't bothered updating more than just a few trusted acquaintances here with boring details of the later complications, travelling blood-clots & phlebitis and recurrent cellulitis - because it's none of your damn business, and I don't feel happy in being forced to have to discuss it now.

Besides, I've not been living in town since January, and it looks like I won't get back anytime soon. I've had to live with my sis & her family in the English Midlands since then, and rent-out the house to help cover ongoing private physio - for which insurance coverage ran out a while back.

'Got it' now? Quit the pestering people.



Divorce is amicably settled then and dyslexia all but cured... and it must be infinitely easier to get a copy of the Non League Paper in the Midlands... so not all bad then.

Please stop insulting the intelligence of people reading this board.


bomaya
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May 27, 2014, 1:25 PM

Posts: 1580
Location: Merstham
Team(s): Merstham and Chelsea

Post #61 of 68 (2865 views)
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I was really enjoying reading the debate in this thread until now.

I don't really know anyone on here and certainly have no idea about any feuds etc. It's not really very interesting. Back to football eh?


VP
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May 27, 2014, 4:51 PM

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Post #62 of 68 (2624 views)
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I understand AC's thing re. population. If there's a higher population in an area then surely it means there are more places to have football teams. I was going to use the word 'town' but that always causes arguments.
For instance - is there a map anywhere that shows places with a population of, say, 30,000 or more? I think you can discount major cities as they'll clearly skew the figures.
I might be wrong but I reckon there are more 'places' in the south east than elsewhere.


UKPunk
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May 27, 2014, 5:04 PM

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Post #63 of 68 (2604 views)
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I was really enjoying reading the debate in this thread until now.

I don't really know anyone on here and certainly have no idea about any feuds etc. It's not really very interesting. Back to football eh?

You don't know what you're missing. Seriously! There's some really nice people on here, honestly. And the ones who aren't just get ignored. Cool



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


leohoenig
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May 27, 2014, 5:25 PM

Posts: 13539
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Post #64 of 68 (2554 views)
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Please remember who a person is, and whether they have had a different persona in the past is not a matter for debate.
It is the content of the posts that matters.
I am watching, so keep the taking of the urine to a minimal.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



buncranaboy
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May 27, 2014, 5:28 PM

Posts: 17959
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Post #65 of 68 (2545 views)
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I am watching, so keep the taking of the urine to a minimal.



Does that have to be Malvern urine then, or is any acceptable ?


prorege
Man City Transfer Target!


May 27, 2014, 6:20 PM

Posts: 6991
Location: Kingdom of Fife
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Post #66 of 68 (2464 views)
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Besides, I've not been living in town since January, and it looks like I won't get back anytime soon.

Well, stop saying you live in Bo'ness then.




UKPunk
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May 27, 2014, 8:27 PM

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Post #67 of 68 (2317 views)
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I am watching, so keep the taking of the urine to a minimal.

Does that have to be Malvern urine then, or is any acceptable ?

And is colour important? Grumpydwarf for one will want to know. Tongue



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


leohoenig
Administrator

May 27, 2014, 11:04 PM

Posts: 13539
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #68 of 68 (2212 views)
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There are things we do not need to know, and desctiptions of Grumpy Dwarf's urine must come into this.
But in the meantime, this thread is dead. If and when anything happens to Lowestoft, it will require a new one
If we just want to make fun of each other, do it on a forum I do not have to read



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com


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