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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Another reorganisation on the way?

 

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ladderman
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Dec 6, 2013, 1:27 PM

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Post #76 of 92 (3431 views)
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Re: [aicwhu] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't necessarily disagree with you. Personally I'd like to see an N/S split at L2 level, and three leagues feeding that (each promoting two).
That isn't going to happen, though, and I'm suggesting practical ways of improving the system we're stuck with.
And it isn't going to happen, the initial suggestion that Conf N/S were on their way out isn't correct. I'm not being mysterious - I'm not going to break confidence - but I was told of a proposed rule change that wouldn't be suggested if there was any chance of the Conference losing it two step 2 divisions.


London Harrier
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Dec 6, 2013, 2:13 PM

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Post #77 of 92 (3407 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Whilst researching an article on Redditch United, I reviewed their 1997/98 Southern League Midland Division season, which would have been a notional Step 3. There is something beautiful about this constitution which just screams “Midlands” It’s a quantum leap from than the regionally amorphous divisions we seem to have now.

Ilkeston Town
Solihull Borough
Raunds Town
Wisbech Town
Moor Green
Bilston Town
Blakenhall
Stafford Rangers
Redditch United
Stourbridge
Hinckley United
Brackley Town
Bedworth United
R C Warwick
Shepshed Dynamo
Sutton Coldfield
Paget Rangers
VS Rugby
Evesham United
Corby Town



(This post was edited by London Harrier on Dec 6, 2013, 2:16 PM)


cope1
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Dec 6, 2013, 2:17 PM

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Post #78 of 92 (3402 views)
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Re: [London Harrier] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's because the leagues had more control over the area they covered and there was no pooling or any obligation to cover areas which they didn't want to. There was plenty of moaning that the system was uneven and didn't cater for everyone, hence we have what we have now, and the change up was that leagues lose the right to dictate precise areas to cover.


Richard Rundle
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Dec 6, 2013, 6:14 PM

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Post #79 of 92 (3344 views)
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Re: [cope1] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

And the counterpoint to that Midland Division was the Southern Division, which basically covered the whole South Coast up to the M4 and above

1 Weymouth 42 32 2 8 107 48 98
2 Chelmsford City 42 29 8 5 86 39 95
3 Bashley 42 29 4 9 101 59 91
4 Newport I O W 42 25 9 8 72 34 84
5 Fisher Athletic London 42 25 5 12 87 50 80
6 Margate 42 23 8 11 71 42 77
7 Newport A F C 42 21 6 15 83 65 69
8 Witney Town 42 20 9 13 74 58 69
9 Clevedon Town 42 20 7 15 57 55 67
10 Waterlooville 42 17 7 18 69 64 58
11 Dartford 42 17 7 18 60 60 58
12 Havant Town 42 13 14 15 65 70 53
13 Fleet Town 42 16 5 21 63 83 53
14 Tonbridge Angels 42 14 10 18 49 55 52
15 Trowbridge Town 42 14 6 22 55 69 48
16 Erith & Belvedere 42 11 13 18 47 68 46
17 Fareham Town 42 12 9 21 75 87 45
18 Cirencester Town 42 12 7 23 63 88 43
19 Weston super Mare 42 12 5 25 49 86 41
20 Baldock Town{1} 42 10 5 27 53 81 35
21 Cinderford Town 42 6 5 31 40 112 23
22 Yate Town 42 5 7 30 44 97 22


acmold
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Dec 6, 2013, 6:50 PM

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Post #80 of 92 (3331 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or

I was going to post something similar early but got interrupted, clubs around here were always dreading getting moves into the Southern Division from the Midland Division in some years it would mean 3 times as much travelling.


Mr. T
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Dec 6, 2013, 9:48 PM

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Post #81 of 92 (3271 views)
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Re: [acmold] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

1998 was the year that the SL turned its first divisions around, with Raunds, Brackley and Corby being transferred to the Southern (eastern) division and Clevedon, Cinderford, Weston and Newport going into the Midland (western).

This was also the year that Chelmsford were refused promotion from the Southern division to the Premier because Billericay's ground wasn't considered fit even though they (BT) were playing in the Isthmian premier.


acmold
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Dec 7, 2013, 9:21 AM

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Post #82 of 92 (3207 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Then there was the year Banbury were in a play-off against Sutton Coldfield and despite it being cross division Sutton were more or less the nearest team Banbury had played all season.


ladderman
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Dec 7, 2013, 11:55 AM

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Post #83 of 92 (3168 views)
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Re: [acmold] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't think you will ever get a system that avoids that kind of situation, though.


Mister TwoU
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Dec 7, 2013, 2:18 PM

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Post #84 of 92 (3134 views)
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Re: [ladderman] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No, you can't. Entirely agree.

The best solution for that, that I've ever worked out is that 'Merit Table' version which I posted somewhere in the RESTRUCTURING threads about a week ago.

Reprise:

All teams in a Step are pooled together. A geographical central 'hub' point is chosen so that every team can have its location stated with reference to that hub in terms of a 360 degree circle. The direction chosen for 0/360 degrees is entirely arbitrary, but presumably we'd choose North.

Each team would basically be drawn to play both home and away against the 9, 10, 11 or 12 (depending on required season length) teams closest degrees-wise either side of them - think closest spokes on a wheel.
Sometimes the basic plan could be altered by swapping two teams here and there for geophysical considerations that don't 'fit' the spoke-pattern too well (e.g. say there's a large estuary separating some teams from their closest-spoke peers).

The number of teams in the Step would have to be determined by (the size of) team fixture-groups divisibility into it, leaving no 'spares' around the wheel. Which for each case of (the size of) team fixture-groups, would allow for several differing numbers.

While this arrangement gives a close to fairest spread for every team's fixtures, note that teams nearest to the hub are mostly completely separated.
The competition is obviously not a full round-robin, but is loosely based on the RR system.



Professional cretin.

(This post was edited by Mister TwoU on Dec 7, 2013, 2:24 PM)


Henfield Bee
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Dec 12, 2013, 9:09 PM

Posts: 611
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Post #85 of 92 (2959 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

perhaps they are inviting some northern-based premiership teams to put U-21 sides in the conf north?..that would remove the issue of teams in the home counties having to travel up north at a stroke...
.



nb: i will only post re new grounds when BurgessHill Bee doesn't..(since he's far better informed than I)


aufcmkc
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Dec 15, 2013, 11:23 AM

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Location: Milton Keynes
Team(s): Ashford United

Post #86 of 92 (2733 views)
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Re: [Henfield Bee] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry, Mister TwoU, but I think that's a really daft idea. I have never had time to look into this in any detail, but I am sure that the best approach to this would be to base the organisation of leagues and divisions on travel time. That's because the impact of the motorways on travel time is so important, and this importance is only going to increase in the future. What you would need is a travel time matrix of all the clubs at a certain step - and then use a Nearest Neighbour Analysis program on it, or something similar. Using this approach would also take into account the issue of how long it takes to negotiate the Dartford Crossing, which is always a bug bear among clubs in my spiritual home. When I get time - like a day off - I might go through this exercise, to see what the allocations would look like.

Of course, if the FA were to bung me half an FA Executive's salary for doing the job, the first thing I'd do would be to shove the top 16 or so teams in the Northern League up to Step 4 - for reasons which should be obvious. I would also probably divide Step 1 into two geographical divisions, as it seems ludicrous that the Conference Premier should occupy a far larger footprint than the Premiership. I am sure that a sensible pyramid could be constructed from there.



http://ashfordtownblog.blogspot.co.uk/


Mister TwoU
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Dec 15, 2013, 4:37 PM

Posts: 2492
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #87 of 92 (2664 views)
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Re: [aufcmkc] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Sorry, Mister TwoU, but I think that's a really daft idea.

That's quite alright... each to their own. I presume you're referring to the radial merit table post, btw(?). Would you elaborate what is 'daft' about it though, please?

I have never had time to look into this in any detail, but I am sure that the best approach to this would be to base the organisation of leagues and divisions on travel time. That's because the impact of the motorways on travel time is so important, and this importance is only going to increase in the future. What you would need is a travel time matrix of all the clubs at a certain step - and then use a Nearest Neighbour Analysis program on it, or something similar. Using this approach would also take into account the issue of how long it takes to negotiate the Dartford Crossing, which is always a bug bear among clubs in my spiritual home. When I get time - like a day off - I might go through this exercise, to see what the allocations would look like.

Of course, if the FA were to bung me half an FA Executive's salary for doing the job, the first thing I'd do would be to shove the top 16 or so teams in the Northern League up to Step 4 - for reasons which should be obvious. I would also probably divide Step 1 into two geographical divisions, as it seems ludicrous that the Conference Premier should occupy a far larger footprint than the Premiership. I am sure that a sensible pyramid could be constructed from there.

Eh? They both occupied the exact same area ~ England + occasional bits of Wales, last time I looked! Crazy




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aufcmkc
Junior Team Star

Dec 15, 2013, 10:16 PM

Posts: 79
Location: Milton Keynes
Team(s): Ashford United

Post #88 of 92 (2603 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Sorry, Mister TwoU, but I think that's a really daft idea.

That's quite alright... each to their own. I presume you're referring to the radial merit table post, btw(?). Would you elaborate what is 'daft' about it though, please?

I have never had time to look into this in any detail, but I am sure that the best approach to this would be to base the organisation of leagues and divisions on travel time. That's because the impact of the motorways on travel time is so important, and this importance is only going to increase in the future. What you would need is a travel time matrix of all the clubs at a certain step - and then use a Nearest Neighbour Analysis program on it, or something similar. Using this approach would also take into account the issue of how long it takes to negotiate the Dartford Crossing, which is always a bug bear among clubs in my spiritual home. When I get time - like a day off - I might go through this exercise, to see what the allocations would look like.

Of course, if the FA were to bung me half an FA Executive's salary for doing the job, the first thing I'd do would be to shove the top 16 or so teams in the Northern League up to Step 4 - for reasons which should be obvious. I would also probably divide Step 1 into two geographical divisions, as it seems ludicrous that the Conference Premier should occupy a far larger footprint than the Premiership. I am sure that a sensible pyramid could be constructed from there.

Eh? They both occupied the exact same area ~ England + occasional bits of Wales, last time I looked! Crazy


Well, you've spectacularly missed my point about the divisional footprints. If you look at the distribution of the clubs that actually play at each level, the Premiership is usually focused quite strongly in a central area that includes London, the North West and the West Midlands. It's when you go down to levels 2 to 5 that you get teams having to go to Carlisle, Plymouth, Brighton, Bristol, the North East etc. OK, so we have Newcastle, Southampton, Norwich and South Wales represented in the Premiership now, but that's fairly unusual, and won't necessarily last. The long-established teams in the top tier tend to come from the central core that I have described.

Apologies if "daft" was a little strong - as you obviously think deeply about these issues. I just think that starting from a point, or points, in geographical space, and then moving radially or laterally in geographical space will never work. I think the starting point should be to work in "time space", as half an hour travelling on one of the North West's excellent motorways will take you further than queueing for half an hour on the South Circular at about tea-time on a Tuesday. I suspect that this approach will mean that clubs will be clustered around motorway corridors - and teams will be less likely to be asked to make journeys over or under the Thames.

If and when I go to prison for a short stretch, I'll have time to work it all out - and you can come and visit me, Mister TwoU.



http://ashfordtownblog.blogspot.co.uk/


Mister TwoU
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Dec 16, 2013, 4:32 PM

Posts: 2492
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #89 of 92 (2520 views)
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Re: [aufcmkc] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Well, you've spectacularly missed my point about the divisional footprints. If you look at the distribution of the clubs that actually play at each level, the Premiership is usually focused quite strongly in a central area that includes London, the North West and the West Midlands. It's when you go down to levels 2 to 5 that you get teams having to go to Carlisle, Plymouth, Brighton, Bristol, the North East etc. OK, so we have Newcastle, Southampton, Norwich and South Wales represented in the Premiership now, but that's fairly unusual, and won't necessarily last. The long-established teams in the top tier tend to come from the central core that I have described.

Aah. I see what you did there! Unfortunately though, I'm not buying the argument, because with what, five exceptions is it? ~ all Premier teams can be relegated, and in its short history about 50 other teams have spent at least one season at that level.

Apologies if "daft" was a little strong [No problem. Call it as you see it! Tongue] - as you obviously think deeply about these issues. I just think that starting from a point, or points, in geographical space, and then moving radially or laterally in geographical space will never work. I think the starting point should be to work in "time space", as half an hour travelling on one of the North West's excellent motorways will take you further than queueing for half an hour on the South Circular at about tea-time on a Tuesday. I suspect that this approach will mean that clubs will be clustered around motorway corridors - and teams will be less likely to be asked to make journeys over or under the Thames.

'Time space' is a very valid criterion too, without doubt. I didn't inc. reference to that idea before, so as to keep my description simpler. Personally I'd perhaps factor both in, plus perhaps also 'cost space' if you can get a handle on that? i.e. covering regional differences in petrol/diesel prices, equivalence value of time off work, regional coach-hire costing differences, etc.

If and when I go to prison for a short stretch, I'll have time to work it all out - and you can come and visit me, Mister TwoU.

Ooooo! Been naughty and expecting a rap? Do tell! Wink




Professional cretin.


aicwhu
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Dec 17, 2013, 12:19 AM

Posts: 990
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Post #90 of 92 (2434 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

fascinating discussion between you two and i assume slightly tongue in cheek

but as i have argued over and over again you are attacking the problem a--- upwards

all of these highly complicated ways of dividing the cake are unneccessary if only we regionalised higher up the pyramid thus avoiding the need for small town/village clubs to be trundling half way across the country on wet tuesday nights to play in front of 30 odd people(well most of them odd)

andrew c


Mister TwoU
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Dec 19, 2013, 9:58 PM

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Post #91 of 92 (2259 views)
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Re: [aicwhu] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Another reorganisation on the way?


Is there actually anything in this, or is it just a silly rumour?

I would have thought by now that we'd have realised a smidgen of proper information by now, at least if there were much legitimacy to it. Are we to prepare to be underwhelmed, at least?

FWIW, I think chances of any major further overhauls are fleeting at best.


Evens says it's just the expected clampdown on league sizes & footprints in the step5 feeders.

6/4 says NP1N/NP1S to become NP1E/NP1W

5-1 says wholesale realignments between SL/IL, with each now taking clubs from either side of an E/W line. Or similar.

10-1 says NPL to get a third feeder - NP1NE

16-1 says a 4th. Conference feeder system is hewn from steps3&4, possibly to include that NPL getting a third feeder - NP1NE, with NP1S transferring to the new system.

25-1 says creation of 4? extra step5 leagues to reduce footprints at that level.

50-1 combination(s) of above.

100-1 bar.



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Mr. T
Chelsea Transfer Target


Dec 19, 2013, 11:24 PM

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Post #92 of 92 (2225 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

"Is there actually anything in this, or is it just a silly rumour?"

I did say my contact, though well-connected, is not entirely reliable. I'll have a word with him...

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