Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 



  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Another reorganisation on the way?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All


Mr. T
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 21, 2013, 5:19 PM

Posts: 5331
Location:
Team(s):

Post #1 of 92 (7385 views)
Shortcut
Another reorganisation on the way? Can't Post or Reply Privately

An acquaintance who is well connected but a bit, er, excitable has informed me that clubs have been warned of another restructuring (presumably for season 15-16) "that would mean the end of Conference North/South".

Over to you, chaps...


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Nov 21, 2013, 5:27 PM)


Tim
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 21, 2013, 5:25 PM

Posts: 8204
Location: Stourbridge, Charmouth
Team(s): Stourbridge, Welton Rovers

Post #2 of 92 (7376 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr. T] Another reorg on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hooray.


paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!


Nov 21, 2013, 5:31 PM

Posts: 19051
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Tranmere Rovers, South Liverpool (the South will rise again), Cammell Laird

Post #3 of 92 (7368 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr. T] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Brimming with confidence after the success of the Bishops Stortford 'experiment', perhaps the Conference powers want to create a new national division ("Conference Championship"?) at step 2.... Crazy


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 21, 2013, 5:43 PM

Posts: 7371
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

Post #4 of 92 (7361 views)
Shortcut
Re: [paulh66] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

quite possibly. the irony we'd have done less travel in that isn't lost on me.

I can't see what else it would be. They won't go back to three feeders - that would be admitting defeat - and they certainly won't go to four.


aicwhu
First Team Sub

Nov 21, 2013, 8:04 PM

Posts: 989
Location: pershore
Team(s): west ham

Post #5 of 92 (7297 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Tim] Another reorg on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

lets hope so

andrew c


cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 21, 2013, 11:52 PM

Posts: 7268
Location:
Team(s):

Post #6 of 92 (7195 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ladderman] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Maybe they're going to announce the official end of all football below the Conference, thus making the Conference grassroots. The only way the FA will ever understand grassroots football...


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Nov 22, 2013, 11:17 AM

Posts: 2486
Location: Malvern exile.
Team(s): Malvern Town F,C,

Post #7 of 92 (7103 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr. T] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
An acquaintance who is well connected but a bit, er, excitable has informed me that clubs have been warned of another restructuring (presumably for season 15-16) "that would mean the end of Conference North/South".

Over to you, chaps...


What the Dickens? Madness!

For all its faults, having two-into-one at this level is really the only appropriate way to operate promotion & relegation without 'bottlenecking' - unless, of course, it's switched to one-into-one. But then that would create yet another unwanted national division (or maybe two!) which would be ridiculous ~ not to mention unpopular, as every team in the country; bar the top 138/140 would be effectively demoted by a step.

I have imagination, and then some, but I'm stonewalling when it comes to 'improving' the structure of the higher steps ~ without introducing radical changes from traditional round-robin league formats, and we all know the likelihood of that!

What on earth can they be thinking?

Perhaps it's only going to be something entirely cosmetic, just for step2? I could see the designations being altered from North/South to something like North&West/South&East based on M-way access ~ which would solve for home counties clubs being thrust North, in exchange for M5-access clubs, suitably recompensed, naturally!

Thinking out aloud...

Step1 cannot be split, as the FL wouldn't want its relegatees dropping into 'regional' leagues.
Step2 cannot be split further, unless following a step1 split. Assuming any step2 change isn't just that 'cosmetic' massaging referred to above -&- also assuming no creation of additional internecine (national/other) steps ~ then the only traditional solution would be a new national Conference1, with the laggards demoted to step3.
If that doesn't itself produce a domino effect cascade of further demotions from step3 & step4, then that indeed means we'll end-up with a fourth feeder to Conference1 ~ and a bottleneck.

Bottlenecks aren't necessarily always a bad thing. We have one between step4 & step5 which generally works quite well, and it's emplaced in the most appropriate position.
I don't have a particular problem in creating another bottleneck at the base of the Conference. Indeed, it is another appropriate place for one to occur ~ given a contemporaneous relaxation of grading requirements for access to both step3 & step4 -&- there being some suitable arrangement for promotion from step3 for more than just each league champion (i.e. top-4 play-offs, much as I find that idea reprehensible, it'll be required to retain upper-table interest).

It could be made to work. If there were to be four step3s, what of step4? Actually, step4 wouldn't need to be changed. As we have pooling now firmly ensconced at these levels, the fourth step3 division could easily function as a stand-alone. Promotion/relegation would be a simple 3-down/2-up arrangement, so wouldn't be too problematical.
Besides, we've only just 'sorted' step5 promotion out... it's hardly the right time to alter the system with two more step4s.



Professional cretin.


acmold
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 22, 2013, 11:54 AM

Posts: 14497
Location:
Team(s):

Post #8 of 92 (7084 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Maybe Division's Three and Four are going to be regionalised, there are to be three Conference's at step 1, 9 regional leagues at step 2 and 30 or more sub regional leagues at step 3, and over 100 at step 4. Or maybe not Cool


ianh
First Team Star

Nov 22, 2013, 12:04 PM

Posts: 1585
Location:
Team(s):

Post #9 of 92 (7080 views)
Shortcut
Re: [acmold] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Maybe Conference will introduce a midland division to sit below Conference North and South, sitting at the same level as, the Northern Premier, Southern Premier and Isthmian Premier Wink


Mr. T
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 22, 2013, 1:24 PM

Posts: 5331
Location:
Team(s):

Post #10 of 92 (7036 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianh] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Maybe Conference will introduce a midland division to sit below Conference North and South, sitting at the same level as, the Northern Premier, Southern Premier and Isthmian Premier.


The rumour is that Conf N and S will go.

I didn't intend that this be another discussion on the pyrmaid structure (the subject's been done to death on here). I just wondered if anyone had heard anything. If any of you are 'in' with club officials at Steps 2 or 3, see what you can find out.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Nov 22, 2013, 1:25 PM)


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 22, 2013, 1:44 PM

Posts: 10877
Location: Longton, Stoke-on-Trent - Ar Bay a Brummie
Team(s): WBA, FC Saarbruecken, Brierley Hill Alliance (RIP)

Post #11 of 92 (7019 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr. T] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Conference National Division 2....



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


Mr. T
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 22, 2013, 3:39 PM

Posts: 5331
Location:
Team(s):

Post #12 of 92 (6981 views)
Shortcut
Re: [KnowYourMarket] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Conference National Division 2....



It was what the Conference wanted in the late 90s but the FA vetoed it because it felt, quite rightly, that there weren't enough clubs capable of supporting a second national division.


cherryhopper
Chelsea Transfer Target

Nov 22, 2013, 8:05 PM

Posts: 4639
Location: The Premier League town of Bournemouth
Team(s): AFC Bournemouth, Verwood Town, Sunderland

Post #13 of 92 (6887 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

  

Perhaps it's only going to be something entirely cosmetic, just for step2? I could see the designations being altered from North/South to something like North&West/South&East based on M-way access ~ which would solve for home counties clubs being thrust North, in exchange for M5-access clubs, suitably recompensed, naturally!

Rugby's National League Two North and South appear to divide this way and as a result clubs in Cornwall are travelling to East Anglia which is further away for them than the West Midlands whose clubs play in the north. At one time they had a 400 mile journey to North Walsham passing through Bedfordshire on the way whose clubs played in the north. Travelling would be less with a North&East/South&West split with the A5/A14 as a dividing line. Obviously some clubs would have to make the numbers up on the other side of their line unless we have an exact 22 club split on each. Where they go should depend on whether Dover, Truro, Lowestoft, Workington and Blyth Spartans are playing at Step 2 at the time making the leagues adaptable. I supported the decision to move Bishop Stortford north a few years ago because it's closer to Workington than Truro and it was also the right decision to move them back south after Truro's relegation as they are closer to Dover and further away from Workington than Gloucester and Oxford City. Perhaps they should just re-name Conference North and South Groups A & B as they do in other countries with two feeder divisions, then they wouldn't have to follow an exact line.


borninchesham
Youth Team Star

Nov 22, 2013, 9:31 PM

Posts: 273
Location: Ipswich
Team(s): Queens Park Rangers & Chesham United

Post #14 of 92 (6846 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cherryhopper] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is that true that one of the reasons for Stortford moving to the north was because it is closer to Workington than Truro?

The same would have applied to Chelmsford & Braintree but they stayed in the south.

Back to the OP. What do you think they may have in mind?

Surely they wouldn't be moving back to 2002 (?) with three feeders into the Conference. A national second level would seem more likely to me, but then how many leagues would feed into that?


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 22, 2013, 10:06 PM

Posts: 7371
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

Post #15 of 92 (6820 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cherryhopper] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But that isnít the rumour Mr Tís heard. And your reasoning for why it correct to put Stortford in the north really one of the most absurd Iíve read


kivo
First Team Regular


Nov 22, 2013, 10:31 PM

Posts: 1194
Location: Kiveton Park, Sheffield
Team(s): Kiveton Park, Sheffield Wednesday

Post #16 of 92 (6798 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ladderman] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's the Conference National that needs scrapping, not the North and South.

A national league at level 5 is unsustainable.


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 22, 2013, 10:53 PM

Posts: 7371
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Team(s): Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge United

Post #17 of 92 (6785 views)
Shortcut
Re: [kivo] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Plainly it is sustainable. Itís been going for 35 years. itís not the travel thatís screwed the numerous clubs that have fallen by the wayside, itís paying unsustainable wages.


cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 24, 2013, 9:30 AM

Posts: 7268
Location:
Team(s):

Post #18 of 92 (6556 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cherryhopper] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Rugby's National League Two North and South appear to divide this way and as a result clubs in Cornwall are travelling to East Anglia which is further away for them than the West Midlands whose clubs play in the north. At one time they had a 400 mile journey to North Walsham passing through Bedfordshire on the way whose clubs played in the north.

Something like this is always likely if you have a long border between the two sections and the way England is shaped, it's more or less impossible not to have. If you divide north/south then there will be clubs in the east either side of the line and clubs in the west either side of the line. If you split east/west you will have clubs in the north either side of the line and the same in the south. The only way to ensure reduced travelling for everyone is to divide by more than 2.

Personally I would prefer a return to the three feeder set-up. I don't think the 'bottleneck' was a big issue, it just seemed it because we hadn't seen the alternative, which I personally think asks clubs to commit to too much travelling. The other improvement would be to divide into three regions with and keep fixed boundaries. Otherwise you will always end up with drift one way or another. You can't tell until you've done it for a few years which region will promote the most sides. With three feeders you could still have play-offs to promote a 4th, either by taking the three divisional play-off winners and the 4th bottom side in the Conference to play-off, or taking the best 8 on PPG in the lower divisions and having them play-off. I'm sure it could be worked out if the will was there.


jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 24, 2013, 10:47 AM

Posts: 7907
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None

Post #19 of 92 (6535 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cherryhopper] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


Perhaps it's only going to be something entirely cosmetic, just for step2? I could see the designations being altered from North/South to something like North&West/South&East based on M-way access ~ which would solve for home counties clubs being thrust North, in exchange for M5-access clubs, suitably recompensed, naturally!

Rugby's National League Two North and South appear to divide this way and as a result clubs in Cornwall are travelling to East Anglia which is further away for them than the West Midlands whose clubs play in the north. At one time they had a 400 mile journey to North Walsham passing through Bedfordshire on the way whose clubs played in the north. Travelling would be less with a North&East/South&West split with the A5/A14 as a dividing line. Obviously some clubs would have to make the numbers up on the other side of their line unless we have an exact 22 club split on each. Where they go should depend on whether Dover, Truro, Lowestoft, Workington and Blyth Spartans are playing at Step 2 at the time making the leagues adaptable. I supported the decision to move Bishop Stortford north a few years ago because it's closer to Workington than Truro and it was also the right decision to move them back south after Truro's relegation as they are closer to Dover and further away from Workington than Gloucester and Oxford City. Perhaps they should just re-name Conference North and South Groups A & B as they do in other countries with two feeder divisions, then they wouldn't have to follow an exact line.

This is no longer the case. Ampthill Rugby Club play in Division 2 South where they play teams from Cornwall. A division lower Bedford Athletic are in Division 3 Midlands. As far as I know all other Bedfordshire teams are at a lower level and play in more regionalised rugby. Bedford Blues of course play in The Championship which is national.



jrev61


acmold
Man City Transfer Target!

Nov 24, 2013, 10:56 AM

Posts: 14497
Location:
Team(s):

Post #20 of 92 (6526 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrev61] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or

In Rugby Union clubs are moved like they are in football. Rugby RFC were in south the other season. And London Irish Wild Geese (?) were / are in the south west. They move clubs to balance like football above a certain level. Oxford Harlequins at one point hoped they were going to be moved from the south west to the Midlands - as a "balancing" club, but in the end they were not moved. The move would have saved them hundreds of miles in travelling.


Geoff
First Team Sub

Nov 24, 2013, 3:14 PM

Posts: 958
Location:
Team(s):

Post #21 of 92 (6444 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ladderman] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Surely wages are related to travel? Effectively travel time to away games is part of a professional playerís working hours.
If players are having to regularly spend three or four hours on the road to games they will, quite reasonably, expect to be paid more than if travel time was limited to (say) an hour.



VP
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 24, 2013, 3:29 PM

Posts: 10242
Location:
Team(s):

Post #22 of 92 (6439 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Geoff] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Surely wages are related to travel? Effectively travel time to away games is part of a professional playerís working hours.
If players are having to regularly spend three or four hours on the road to games they will, quite reasonably, expect to be paid more than if travel time was limited to (say) an hour.


Most teams at step 1 have playing budgets over £250,000 a year. A couple are over £1,000,000 a year. Having to pay for the players to be ferried across the country for a few hours every couple of weeks is a very small part of that budget.


(This post was edited by VP on Nov 24, 2013, 3:30 PM)


Geoff
First Team Sub

Nov 24, 2013, 3:46 PM

Posts: 958
Location:
Team(s):

Post #23 of 92 (6429 views)
Shortcut
Re: [VP] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You are missing the point, Iím not talking about the transport costs. A part time player will want more cash to give up the whole of his Saturday (including the evening) to travel the length of the country than he will to leave at 1pm and be back by 6.30.
Obviously my argument does not apply to full timers so has limited relevance at Step 1, but does apply from Step 2 down.


VP
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 24, 2013, 4:20 PM

Posts: 10242
Location:
Team(s):

Post #24 of 92 (6413 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Geoff] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm not missing the point. The transport costs, including time, are tiny compared to wages overall. I don't know how many hours 'work' a Conference player does a week but, whatever it is, they're getting paid bloody well for it.
There are players at step 5 on £200 a week - it's stupid money. This is where the biggest problem lies.


(This post was edited by VP on Nov 24, 2013, 4:33 PM)


borninchesham
Youth Team Star

Nov 24, 2013, 7:37 PM

Posts: 273
Location: Ipswich
Team(s): Queens Park Rangers & Chesham United

Post #25 of 92 (6328 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Geoff] Another reorganisation on the way? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

By the rules of the game, players can only be paid IF they are under contract. The contract would detail payment per game/week, goalscoring/appearance bonuses etc. I know that non-contract players ARE paid & more than expenses but this is no different to the days of shamatureism.

I've never heard of a contract being offered that paid extra amounts fot the length of travel. At step three what would Truro be paying to their players for all the time they spend travelling?

Besides, I though nearly all of the Conference clubs were full time?

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All
 
 


free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SUMMIT SOCCER v.1.2.3