Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 



  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: All Other Football Interests: All other football:
Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw?

 



cmjones007
Ballboy/girl


Jul 5, 2013, 4:39 PM

Posts: 6
Location: Billericay, Essex
Team(s): Grays Athletic

Post #1 of 22 (4229 views)
Shortcut
Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? Can't Post or Reply Privately

If you were compiling records, would you class a match that ended level, but was decided by penalties as a win / loss or a draw?

I have extensive records for the club and can't decide how to record such instances.

What are others' thoughts?


Wiki has this to say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...ball)#Win_or_draw.3F

"
A shoot-out is usually considered for statistical purposes to be separate from the match which preceded it.[51][52][53] In the case of a two-legged fixture, the two matches are still considered either as two draws or as one win and one loss; in the case of a single match, it is still considered as a draw. This contrasts with a fixture won in extra time, where the score at the end of normal time is superseded. In college soccer in the United States, the NCAA treated a shoot-out win as a match win for the 2002 season, but otherwise its statistics treat the match as drawn. However, in the championship game of the NCAA tournament, a shoot-out win is a match win.[54]

In the calculation of UEFA coefficients, shoot-outs are ignored for club coefficients,[52] but not national team coefficients, where the shoot-out winner gets 20,000 points: more than the shoot-out loser, who gets 10,000 (the same as for a draw) but less than the 30,000 points for winning a match outright.[55] In the FIFA World Rankings, the base value of a win is three points; a win on penalties is two; a draw and a loss on penalties are one; a loss is zero.[53] The more complicated ranking system FIFA used from 1999 to 2006 gave a shoot-out winner the same points as for a normal win and a shoot-out loser the same points as for a draw; goals in the match proper, but not the shoot-out, were factored into the calculation.[56]"



graysath-online - fixtures / results / stats


Loiner
First Team Star

Jul 5, 2013, 4:44 PM

Posts: 2533
Location: North of the Aire
Team(s): None. A supporter of grassroots football

Post #2 of 22 (4225 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I record it as a draw. Penalty Kicks are only a means of deciding the outcome of the game just as tossing a coin would be, but with a bit more skill involved.


kirby knitters
Qatar World Cup bid member!

Jul 5, 2013, 5:26 PM

Posts: 17712
Location: Kirby Muxloe
Team(s): Hinckley United FC.

Post #3 of 22 (4219 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Dont keep records anymore but when i did the result of the penalty shoot out always went along side the ft/et.Its the outcome of the game that matters so pens were always recorded.


jon b
First Team Star

Jul 5, 2013, 8:17 PM

Posts: 2938
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #4 of 22 (4202 views)
Shortcut
Re: [kirby knitters] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As the outcome of the shoot out sends one team through to the next round - or in the Final wins the trophy - and sends the other side out, I think you have to record it as win/loss rather than draw.


southend statto
First Team Star

Jul 5, 2013, 8:47 PM

Posts: 1975
Location: East Anglia (South Division)
Team(s): most of my local sides

Post #5 of 22 (4193 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

officially it's a draw. The taking of kicks from yje penalty mark is just a method of deciding who goes through/wins


jon b
First Team Star

Jul 6, 2013, 10:26 AM

Posts: 2938
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #6 of 22 (4157 views)
Shortcut
Re: [southend statto] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
officially it's a draw. The taking of kicks from yje penalty mark is just a method of deciding who goes through/wins

I think the last word of your post is the crucial one.


VP
Man City Transfer Target!


Jul 6, 2013, 8:07 PM

Posts: 10242
Location:
Team(s):

Post #7 of 22 (4129 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jon b] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I thought it was clear how results were recorded.
Teams draw after 90 mins and extra time if it was played then a note is added to say who won on penalties.


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 7, 2013, 10:28 AM

Posts: 8429
Location:
Team(s):

Post #8 of 22 (4101 views)
Shortcut
Re: [VP] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I record it as a draw - the actual game of football is over at the end of 90/120 minutes (delete as appropriate). The "kicks from the penalty mark" are there only to determine who progresses to the next round.

So I'd show something like (example taken from the AFA Senior Cup 2012-13)

Latymer Old Boys 4-4 Old Finchleians (Latymer Old Boys won 4-2 on penalties)


Mishi
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 7, 2013, 1:23 PM

Posts: 6948
Location: South East London.
Team(s): Dulwich Hamlet

Post #9 of 22 (4078 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Richard Rundle] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

"Latymer Old Boys 4-4 Old Finchleians (Latymer Old Boys won 4-2 on penalties) "

This is the correct way, as far as I'm concerned (with AET mentioned, if played)

It used to infuriate me when I had a short spell as Youth Secretary for Dulwich Hamlet in the Southern Youth League many years ago, when their bulletin would post the above example as Latymer Old Boys 8, Old Finchleians 6.

If goals from penalty shoot outs were meant to be included in results they would be included in official individual goalscoring records, which they are not!



Grounds visited: 741
Last new ground: Old Roan FC; John Roan Playing Fields; Kidrooke Park Road, London, SE3. (Bromley & South London Football Alliance Division One)
Last game: Tuesday 16th August 2019:Dulwich Hamlet 1, Wealdstone 0. [Vanarama National League South]
Matches watched this season: 17
2017/18-New English grounds: 3; & foreign: 0




Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 7, 2013, 2:33 PM

Posts: 8429
Location:
Team(s):

Post #10 of 22 (4055 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mishi] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't bother marking "aet" - as far as I'm concerned it makes no difference, the result is still the result

I am equally annyoyed by including the penalties in the result of the match. I've been looking at the cup results of the Liverpool Old Boys Amateur League over the last few days. On their old website (which has now been cleared down, presumably to prep for the new season), we had things like 5-6, 7-8 & 9-10. On their LeagueWebsite page, which looks it was abandoned in mid-season, the same results appear as 3-4, 3-4 & 2-3 which I'm guessing are the results on penalties and the actual match score is effectively A-B.


DavetheGlassboy
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jul 7, 2013, 10:27 PM

Posts: 4505
Location: Oldbury, West Midlands
Team(s): Stourbridge FC, Warrington RLFC, Stourport HC

Post #11 of 22 (3837 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If you were compiling records, would you class a match that ended level, but was decided by penalties as a win / loss or a draw?

I have extensive records for the club and can't decide how to record such instances.

What are others' thoughts?


Personally, I'd always regard this as a draw.



Last new ground (841): Dimensions Leisure Centre - Port Vale Ladies v Lye Ladies 18/8/19
Last game: Boldmere v Heather 19/8/19
Football seen in: England, Wales, Scotland, Italy, France, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Austria, Croatia, Jersey, Sweden, Switzerland, Republic of Ireland, United States of America, Ukraine, Montenegro, Estonia, San Marino, Slovenia, Northern Ireland, Malta, Lithuania, Russia, Belgium, Portugal


Jaundiced Hack
First Team Star

Jul 8, 2013, 11:09 AM

Posts: 1651
Location:
Team(s):

Post #12 of 22 (3610 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Richard Rundle] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Trust me Rich and Mish, you are not the only ones.
I often have to make calls or send e-mails to check results in cup games for my paper after being sent 8-7s or 9-6s when the report sent in says it was 2-2 or whatever.
One or two league secretaries around here have done it in the past FFS.


Veteran
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 8, 2013, 12:38 PM

Posts: 6228
Location:
Team(s):

Post #13 of 22 (3575 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Got to be recorded as a draw. The shoot out is not part of the game and, perhaps crucially, goals scored in shoot-outs do not count in player statistics. The guidelines on shoot-outs rather confusingly call successful kicks "goals" whereas for complete clarity I would prefer them to be described as "successful kicks from the penalty mark".

I always record the result of the shoot-out, and indeed the "scoring progress" therein, but it does not get included in any of my statistics.

Most amusing occurrence relating to this was when a certain well known gentleman from Garstang asked me whether he had to go all the way back to Caley Thistle after seeing a 0-0 followed by penalties. He accepted my "ruling" and did indeed go back to see a "proper" goal ....

On a slightly different tack I have seen penalty shoot-outs when the game has not finished in a draw. These are quite common in some Provincial Cup Group matches in Belgium where 5 penalties each are taken after every game regardless of the final score. They may then be needed as "tie breakers" to decide placings in the group.


Mishi
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 8, 2013, 1:40 PM

Posts: 6948
Location: South East London.
Team(s): Dulwich Hamlet

Post #14 of 22 (3546 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Veteran] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I hadn't heard of that "tie breakers" scenario before, unless I've read it & forgotten about it.

Dare I say it...."Only in Belgium..."!



Grounds visited: 741
Last new ground: Old Roan FC; John Roan Playing Fields; Kidrooke Park Road, London, SE3. (Bromley & South London Football Alliance Division One)
Last game: Tuesday 16th August 2019:Dulwich Hamlet 1, Wealdstone 0. [Vanarama National League South]
Matches watched this season: 17
2017/18-New English grounds: 3; & foreign: 0




cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 8, 2013, 4:45 PM

Posts: 7268
Location:
Team(s):

Post #15 of 22 (3505 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mishi] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I love Belgian football, just for the novelty of some of the competition formats used and, now, this. I didn't know about it until I saw it here.

I don't usually bother with 'AET' as it rarely makes any difference to anything while a win on penalties skews things. As noted, scores of 9-8 are very rare until you get a 3-3 draw and followed by a dozen penalties but if it was 9-8 AET that would be note worthy. Having said that, it's useful that the AFA (and most other county) website(s) show whether or not ET was played as it's not always the case. I have known referees deem the light to be too poor to play the extra half hour. Still doesn't make any odds but is useful to know.


leohoenig
Administrator

Jul 8, 2013, 5:29 PM

Posts: 13397
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #16 of 22 (3488 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mishi] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I hadn't heard of that "tie breakers" scenario before, unless I've read it & forgotten about it.

Dare I say it...."Only in Belgium..."!


You better not say that, I am sure this has been used in the Netherlands as well.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Wheelbarrow
First Team Star

Jul 8, 2013, 6:35 PM

Posts: 2399
Location:
Team(s):

Post #17 of 22 (3445 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Veteran] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
a certain well known gentleman from Garstang asked me whether he had to go all the way back to Caley Thistle after seeing a 0-0 followed by penalties. He accepted my "ruling" and did indeed go back to see a "proper" goal ....


When of course the correct answer to that question would be "what the hell are you asking me for?"


dottirofhod
Man City Transfer Target!


Jul 8, 2013, 8:06 PM

Posts: 13522
Location: The North. 'Ich hassen lehm kopfs'
Team(s): Crewe Alex and obviously England.(Unlike a lot on here)

Post #18 of 22 (3408 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Wheelbarrow] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
a certain well known gentleman from Garstang asked me whether he had to go all the way back to Caley Thistle after seeing a 0-0 followed by penalties. He accepted my "ruling" and did indeed go back to see a "proper" goal ....


When of course the correct answer to that question would be "what the hell are you asking me for?"


Really Vet and there was me thinking my laughing and joking on the train home with him about it may have had summat to do with it.
Of course said gentleman can make up his own rules like eveyone on here.But he unlike most can be swayed.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 35 / 30/ 5/ inc 2 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 11 / 08 / 2019.
2019/20. Benelux = Bel = 0-0-0-(0-0-0)-(0-2-3-2)/ Lux = 0-3 / Neth = 0-0-0-(2 - 2) Others France = 0-0 / Germany =0-0-0 / Italy =0-3/ Iberia = P = 0-1 & S = 0-1.

Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



Chris1963
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 19, 2013, 11:47 PM

Posts: 6780
Location: North London
Team(s): Oxford United / Groundhopper

Post #19 of 22 (3058 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cmjones007] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As far as Whitstable Town's programme editor is concerned, games that go to penalties are draws. Last Saturday's excellent programme listed all past games between Whitstable and Herne Bay, including some in the Bruce Smith Shield which had been decided on penalties. A separate article elsewhere in the programme summarized all such meetings, with the wins for either side excluding those games that went to penalty kicks.


(This post was edited by Chris1963 on Jul 19, 2013, 11:47 PM)


jon b
First Team Star

Jul 20, 2013, 8:20 AM

Posts: 2938
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #20 of 22 (3043 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Chris1963] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A few years back we made it into the end of season play offs and reached the Final where we took part in a very fine game that after extra time ended 2-2. The opposition converted more penalties than our guys. That meant we lost. I suppose I could have tried pretending to the opposing fans that really it was a draw, but it would only have attracted pitying looks.

We lost.

Anyone doubting whether we lost could have seen the answer from which of the two clubs was playing in a higher division at the start of the following season. Penalties aren't a great way of deciding who wins or loses, but they do involve skill and nerve, and, at the end, one side has won and the other has lost.


Mishi
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 20, 2013, 10:38 AM

Posts: 6948
Location: South East London.
Team(s): Dulwich Hamlet

Post #21 of 22 (3031 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jon b] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, but you LOST the play-off on penalties, having DRAWN the game...



Grounds visited: 741
Last new ground: Old Roan FC; John Roan Playing Fields; Kidrooke Park Road, London, SE3. (Bromley & South London Football Alliance Division One)
Last game: Tuesday 16th August 2019:Dulwich Hamlet 1, Wealdstone 0. [Vanarama National League South]
Matches watched this season: 17
2017/18-New English grounds: 3; & foreign: 0




jon b
First Team Star

Jul 21, 2013, 8:34 AM

Posts: 2938
Location: Dronfield
Team(s): SUFC, SWFC etc

Post #22 of 22 (2991 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mishi] Penalty Shoot Out - win/lose or draw? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We lost Cool

 
 


free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SUMMIT SOCCER v.1.2.3