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AndyE
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Dec 15, 2011, 2:40 PM

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Re: [ictoan] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes, it was nine at that time - the Eastern Counties, Hellenic, Kent, Midland Combination, Sussex County, United Counties, Wessex, West Midlands (Regional), and Western Leagues were feeders to the Southern League. All were "Step 4", although the Midland Combination and Sussex were perceived as a bit weaker than the others. (Sussex was a bit of an odd case. There were Sussex clubs in the Isthmian and the Southern, but most of those in the Isthmian had arrived there via the Athenian League. The promotion route from the Sussex County League was to the Southern, but few clubs took it. One that did was Hastings Town - as they then were - who were promoted after finishing ninth in Sussex simply because the old Hastings United had gone bust.)

The North West Counties and Northern Counties East fed the Northern Premier League. 87-88 was the first season that the NPL had a Division One, so the two feeder leagues dropped from "Step 3" to "Step 4" that year. The Northern League stood outside the pyramid, and its clubs played in the FA Trophy rather than the Vase; it certainly considered itself as parallel to the NPL at this time.

The Combined Counties, Essex, London Spartan, and South Midlands fed into the Isthmian. As of 87-88, the Isthmian had Premier, Div One, and two regional Div Twos, so the feeders were "Step 5".

cope1
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Dec 15, 2011, 10:00 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

This exactly how I have it mapped out - pleased to see I am on the right lines.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

cope1
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Jan 5, 2012, 10:06 AM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thinking about this some more (I have unearthed the relevant data and am now starting on the post-war period) it seems to me more appropriate to treat the different leagues in as minor leagues are treated in baseball, by classifying them rather than connecting them. For example, the entire country is covered by the major leagues and Class AAA. There are 3 x AA leagues which cover the eastern seaboard and along the gulf coast to Texas. However, there are no AA leagues in the midwest or on the west coast. There are A+ leagues in California and Carolina but not in New England or the middle of the country.

So, the footballing parallel is that the Southern League would have been the sole Class AAA league up until 1968 with the Midland, Cheshire County and, at times, the Lancashire Combination sitting at AA alongside the Western League which just happened to have the Southern League as an 1-step jump for ambitious clubs. The movement of teams was more akin to baseball relocations as well in terms of frequency, i.e. there wasn't a set number of teams at the top and bottom of leagues which moved, but teams moved, sometimes randomly, to other leagues. An example of a baseball move was the Round Rock Express who moved from AA Texas League to AAA Pacific Coast League about 5 years ago. What actually happened was that the Edmonton Trappers PCL franchise was bought and moved to Round Rock, while the TL franchise was moved to Corpus Christi to be become the Hooks. Round Rock obviously had the money and facilities to move up and with that you'd expect they would have done fairly well leading up to the move. This is similar to old-style league moves in football where a club didn't have to finish in a certain position to move to a stronger league, they just had to have everything in place which, more often than not, led to them having been competetive in their previous league.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

stanley
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Jun 10, 2012, 6:41 PM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are you any further forward with the post-war years? I've recently been looking at this type of thing and trying to determine what level each league would have been at. I've only been looking at the post-war period for now but I'll look at more years eventually. I'd be interested in seeing the percentage figures for the post-war years (like you did for the other years in your earlier posts in the thread).

cope1
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Jun 10, 2012, 6:45 PM

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Re: [stanley] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've not had a look at it lately actually but I can do. I've had various other projects on so I've been busy but I'll post something else soon (he promises foolishly...). I'm interested to know what you find too. I originally started this because I wanted to rank teams over the years which requires judging the strength of their leagues but it's become a means to an end since then.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

stanley
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Jun 10, 2012, 7:58 PM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I basically started this with the same intentions i.e. ranking the teams. I have done this type of thing before but abandoned it because the way I was doing it wasn't going to work.

I haven't been ranking the teams so far but I've been tracking their progress in the leagues (focusing on Southern, Midland, Cheshire, Lancashire, North-Eastern/Counties (+North Regional), Isthmian and Athenian League at the moment). I've been recording the finishing positions in each of those leagues. I've then been looking at the final qualifying round of the FA Cup each year and seeing what division the teams were in. I would like to go into more detail (like with the percentages) but I'm not going to do that yet as it will take a long time. Trying to get a basic overview first and then hopefully I can look at it in more detail over time.

I'm nowhere near the level of what you've done so far but I've only started recently. It's going to turn out a lot more complicated to rank the leagues than I'd hoped...

cope1
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Jun 10, 2012, 8:49 PM

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Re: [stanley] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

It's going to turn out a lot more complicated to rank the leagues than I'd hoped...

This is the best bit of course! If it looked like ending I'd feel quite forlorn I think.

I've also looked at how clubs have moved between leagues as results do not always produce the same results as personal opinions. For example, in all my studies the Athenian League has been even to or stronger than the Isthmian League which was certainly not the perceived case. So I've looked at finishing positions of clubs which moved to other leagues.

What I've done is classified them as finishing in the top, middle or bottom 1/3 and calculated how many of each moved from League A to League B. If most of the teams moving from A-B were in the top 1/3 then it means that League B was considered stronger. There are plenty of exceptions of course.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

Mister TwoU
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Jun 10, 2012, 11:38 PM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or

Aaah, this is so very interesting to me too. I've been hatching a notion to tackle just this subject for when my 'German project' runs out of steam.

Don't know exactly how I'm going to approach things when I do finally get to it, but I'm tinkering with the idea of treating every FA Cup, Amateur Cup, County Cup, etc. inter-league fixture as if it were a 'league representative game', but with allowances perhaps made with respect to the actual competitiveness of fixtures which aren't quite so essential (can I say?) as would be both the FA Cup & Amateur Cup match-ups.
In other words, I think I'd be giving each match outside the main two competitions a kind of 'degree of reliability' mark-down - which I'll come back to in a bit.

One thing I'm sure I'm going to be correct in predicting is that there will always be a certain paucity every single season of specific league-A vs. league-B ties, meaning that whatever system you use to compare each league, the tiny number of data-points will absolutely be insufficiently reliable to enable hard-and-fast judgements to be made between any leagues in that given season.

It occurred to me that it might be necessary to presume a validity for including the results of games played in previous and following seasons when considering comparisons between leagues at the chronological midpoint of any ranged-period thus chosen. Those 'out-of-season' pairings might also thus be assigned a 'degree of reliability' mark-down, greater the further from the midpoint they might be.

From the back of a fag-packet, I reckon that matches from the seasons both directly before and after the one in question might have (say) 70% the validity of matches actually played in that season. And coming back to County Cups (as promised above), maybe they could be treated similarly?
That 70% figure btw - is my estimate in respect of the average totalisation of any changes between the two teams from one season to the next, or, from a senior competition like the big-two cups to a more junior competition, such as the County Cups.
Thus, looking further away from the central season in the range being studied, I'd mark-down the 2nd.-season either side to 70%x70%=49%, the 3rd.-season either side to (a 'rounded') 34%, 4th.-season to 24%, 5th. to 17%, etc.
Games from Charity Cups, Hospital Cups, Benevolent Bowls and so forth could then be placed in apt positions, as if they were games played in far-flung seasons from the central season of interest.

Another way of considering the mark-downs is perhaps to represent them in your mind as the loss of current players from the squad, greater and greater in number as you trace further years away from the median one you're interested in, both backwards & forwards in time.
Of course, picking a number like 70% all the way through is quite whacked! I have absolutely no real idea whether 60%, 70% or 80% would be able (as an average) to reasonably describe the 'rate of change' of skill/personel/validity-of-result/etc., whichever of those concepts it's representing, but hey! - you've got to start with some premise - and half the (masochistic) fun is in the moment you discover that it's your initial premise that's made everything go tits-up! lolol. If at first you don't succeed...

Anyhow, for better or for worse, back to the numbers one more time. What you do is simply multiply the number of results that are in each year of your 'spread' around the median year - by the rounded mark-down number for that year.
i.e. if you only consider a spread of three seasons, you count 100x each result for the median one and then 70x each result from the median-1 season and the median+1 season. Apply these to make up 'The League Table of Leagues' for that median season - and then finally - calculate each league's PPG.

Voila?

Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.

cope1
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Jun 11, 2012, 2:03 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

And now we have moved on to research methods as they call it here in the university. There are one or two proper stuck up research types around who, if they saw what we were doing, would probably faint at the complexity of it! Talking about research methods, of course, is as much fun as actually crunching the numbers. Well, I think so - there are some people in the real world who might disagree.

The way I see it there are three clear ways of comparing leagues:

1. Cup performances by clubs
In this method you simply work out how far clubs from different leagues progress over, say, a 5-year period and average it. So League 'A' teams get to Round 4 while League 'B' teams get to Round 3.5 etc. Then you simply compare and see who has the best results.
The benefit to this is its simplicity. The downside is that it doesn't account for the level of opposition faced or the entry point into a competition.

2. Head-to-head results
Using the same cup results as for '1.' but this time turning them into results between leagues. So you take a group of leagues and effectively work out the result between each of them. So you line up League 'A' vs League 'B', League 'B' vs League 'C' and League 'C' vs League 'A' and fill in the results.
The benefit is it removes the skew effect where teams in different leagues face different levels of oppo. For example, if Leagues A, B and C are all the same standard they'd come out roughly equal. But if League C also played League D, which was weaker, quite often, they'd come out on top. This way they can only 'beat' them once. So whether you win 22 matches to nought or 2 matches to nought you end up with the same result.

3. Analysis of league moves
Like I said in an earlier post, simply looking at a teams' finishing position the season before they move leagues gives you an idea whether they were moving up, down or across. Obviously you can have a strong team move up a league having had a shocker of a final season in their first league which would skew the results but that's why with all of these things you use results across a number of years. If you could be bothered you could also consider a team's performance over a 5 year period leading up to moving leagues which would probably give you a better result.

Well that's all I have to say on that for this afternoon.

Mister TwoU - what is your German project?

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

Mister TwoU
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Jun 12, 2012, 1:45 PM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or

The 'German project' is just my attempt to see what it would look like in the Bundesliga, etc. if (a) all reserve teams got removed and placed into their own separate system and (b) following upon that, limiting divisional feeders to just the two for each division at each level (maybe with a few 3:1's thrown in at the lower reaches.
There might also be a (c) - studying the several tiny-footprint 'city-state leagues' (which annoy me inordinately for some reason) and perhaps attempting to 'stretch them to fit' to meld them into a wider, more equitably footprinted area-league system beneath regional-league levels.

I'll essentially be looking to preserve the top-three levels 'as-is', probably with more-England-size divisions, beneath which I'll throw in three regionalliga levels, with 2-4-8 divisions, with reducing numbers in constitution. Then instead of the State-Leagues, I'll begin with 16 area-leagues at the 7th.-level, again with ever smaller constitutions, probably looking at making them 16-32-64-192-576... Of course, as I'm actually mapping them out manually, (i) it's a 'forever-and-a-day- project, (ii) will most likely not get that far into/past level-7 & (iii) will even more likely run-out of accessible data well-before any how!
I already suspect that it might be best to reduce the truly national divisions back to just levels 1 & 2, and I've only been on it ten days or so.

I'm building the reserves section in parallel, with just one national division and with two-less teams in each equivalent division to the first-team pyramid and a likely earlier introduction of the 3:1 system. Probably then it'll look like 1-2-4-8-16-32-96-288...

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes to fiddle around with over a take-out and a few tins, especially as the gf's awa' north visiting relatives atm. Keeps me out of mischief if there's no chippying on - bloody wet weather sees to that!

Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.

stanley
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Jun 21, 2012, 7:53 AM

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Re: [cope1] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have to agree that the best bit is finding out the information.

I was wondering something about the FA Cup. I know how they do it now with what stage of qualifying the various non-leagues enter (e.g. the Conference teams coming in at the fourth qualifying round) but how did they do it in the past? I've been looking at what round teams are knocked out but I haven't checked what round they start in yet.

cope1
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Jun 21, 2012, 4:35 PM

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Re: [stanley] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can't answer of the top of my head but I have a fair old wealth of data kicking about at home up to 1965 so I can probably post some stats later this evening. I am currently trying to compile a document of sorts which lists, season by season, 'results' between leagues. The thing that stands out a mile is that almost every year the Athenian League beats the Isthmian League, often quite comfortably. Otherwise it's more or less what you would expect (well, what I would expect - most other people probably aren't as much of a geek as me to expect anything in the first place!). The Southern League is very strong with the Midland and North-Eastern Leagues also having a good go. Yorkshire is about on a par with Birmingham (nowadays W.Mids Regional League) and Lancs and Cheshire are about even.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

PaulC
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Jun 22, 2012, 6:35 PM

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Re: [stanley] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

[replyI know how they do it now with what stage of qualifying the various non-leagues enter (e.g. the Conference teams coming in at the fourth qualifying round) but how did they do it in the past? I've been looking at what round teams are knocked out but I haven't checked what round they start in yet.

Exemption of leagues only began when the practice of exempting individual clubs ceased - 1998-99 was the first season: the 66 NPL, SPL and IPL teams were exempted till the 2nd Qual Round and the 22 Conference teams to the 3rd.

Ashton49Pieman
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Jun 23, 2012, 5:01 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

You all seem to have studied the Historical steps in greater detail than me, but as a supporter from the 1950s onwards, the league rankings and cup exemptions seemed more haphazard than a precise science.

There was a divide between best Non league clubs North ( mainly semi pro) and Southern clubs of a similar level ( mainly Amateur)obviously the FA Amateur Cup which was competed for mainly by Southern and to a lesser extent North East clubs was the only Non League Trophy up for grabs.

The FA Cup 4th Qual exemptions seemed to work as a reward for the previous seasons FA Cup exploits together with a few clubs who seemed to enjoy regular Cup runs over recent years - hence some names that were regular 1st Round visitors.

Similarly entrance to the Football league was difficult since the " old boys " network seemed to rule generally unless closure or a special case came up.

But generally Football League applicants seemed to be considered from any suitable standard team from generally the the top considered Leagues which after WW 2 were Cheshire League, Lancashire Comb, Midland League, Southern League Western and Eastern Counties Leagues and Birmingham League. Any progressive clubs from the top ranked Amateur Leagues ie Isthmian, Athenian and Northern Leagues were expected to work through the professional leagues to be considered for Football League status ( eg Wimbledon Barnet Dagenham etc ) although in reality they were probably as good - the North/South ideaology was just different in the 1940s 50s and 60s

Just to finish with a little wry smile when I started watching football in the early 1950s my club Ashton United regularly played Wigan Athletic in Lancs Comb or Cheshire League - now a slight difference in their standings today

(This post was edited by Ashton49Pieman on Jun 23, 2012, 5:07 AM)

forestman
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Jun 23, 2012, 7:06 AM

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Re: [Ashton49Pieman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Prior to the introduction of the FA Trophy the 2 finalists in the FA Amateur Cup were exempt to the First Round Proper. With the Introduction of the Trophy the 2 finalist of that were exempt until the first round. When the Amateur cup was replaced byt the Vase the two exemptions were replace by the 2 clubs with the best league/cup record over the previous 3 seasons. this was later reduced to just the 2 trophy finalists. Those clubs exempt until the 4th Qualifying round was based ont the League and cup record for the previous 3 season, everyone else were placed into 36 regional groups with one "seeded" club, based on above criteria in each group, these clubs were exempt from any preliminary round match in their group if required. Following the introduction of the current criteria no non-league side has been exempt until the first round.

PaulC
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Jun 23, 2012, 9:01 AM

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Re: [Ashton49Pieman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Just to finish with a little wry smile when I started watching football in the early 1950s my club Ashton United regularly played Wigan Athletic in Lancs Comb or Cheshire League - now a slight difference in their standings today<

Spare a thought for a Darwen supporter from the 1950s then!

PaulC
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Jun 23, 2012, 9:05 AM

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Re: [forestman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Those clubs exempt until the 4th Qualifying round was based ont the League and cup record for the previous 3 season, everyone else were placed into 36 regional groups with one "seeded" club, based on above criteria in each group, these clubs were exempt from any preliminary round match in their group if required.

I've never seen a reference to the 'seeded' club.

forestman
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Jun 23, 2012, 9:25 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

These clubs were always given the number 1, when the draw for the qualifying rounds were made. Incidentally when it was made pre-season it was drawn up to the 3rd qualifying round.

PaulC
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Re: [forestman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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These clubs were always given the number 1, when the draw for the qualifying rounds were made. Incidentally when it was made pre-season it was drawn up to the 3rd qualifying round.

The draw being made up to the 3rd Qualifying Round corresponds with my memory, and is in keeping with the "divisional" aspect of the draw. Just looking at the Guardian archive, I'm surprised to see two reports in 1957 and 1960 stating "the draw for the third qualifying round of the FA Cup was made yesterday ......"

Perhaps just a Grauniad misunderstanding of the process.

cope1
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Jun 24, 2012, 10:31 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Possibly misunderstood or maybe just considered to sound better in print.

I have a week off this week so I will try and post some data about entries up to WWII and, if I have time, beyond.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

John Treleven
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Jun 24, 2012, 4:01 PM

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Re: [forestman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was intrigued by the mention of a seeded club in each regional division as I had not heard of that before.

Effectively these were next best set of non-league clubs after those exempted to the 4th Qualifying Round.

Trying to ascertain which clubs those were will take some deduction.

The following is an attempt, it also indicates that there were possibly second and third seeds in each group too.

The F.A. handbooks give the full draws from 1984-85 and the readership of this board may be able to reference earlier ones.

Taking 1984-85 there were 494 accepted entries with the 44 level 1 & 2 clubs exempted to the third round,
the 48 level 3 & 4 clubs exempted to the first round along with the two F.A. Trophy finalists (Bangor & Northwich, who drew each other)
plus two slots previously given to the Amateur Cup finalists (Altrincham & Telford)

A further 20 non-league clubs (all of whom, along with those above, had reached the fourth qualifying round the previous season)
were exempted to the fourth qualifying round. To some extent this was a self-perpetuating system, and it would be interesting
to know how teams were selected for exemption when they were tied on previous performances over the past two or three seasons.

The 378 non exempted clubs were drawn in to 36 divisions of 10 or 11 clubs. There were 11 clubs in the odd numbered divisions and
10 in the even numbered ones with the exceptions of divisions 8 & 35 which were the reverse.

The 36 divisions were, as usual, drawn up as far as the third qualifying round.

The 36 divisional winners joined the 20 exempted clubs in the fourth qualifying round to produce 28 matches.

A major problem is that the Preliminary Round byes are not detailed within the draw (for reasons of space) so that establishing
who was placed at no. 1 (and possibly no. 9 and/or no.16) in each group is not known within the full draw of 16 teams (including the 5 or 6 byes)
- so that you can only analyse the pattern for the last eight in each section.

The Q1 draw for every division was, in draw order
1. bye
2. bye
3. winners of match 1
4. bye
5. winners of match 3 (or a bye in divisions with ten clubs)
6. bye
7. bye
8. winners of match 2

For Q2 it was 3 or 4 v 5 or 6 and 1 or 2 v 7 or 8 (home team first)

and for Q3 it was 3/4/5/6 v 1/2/7/8 (home team first)

Therefore if the seeded clubs were given byes in the Preliminary Round then they could not be those involved on lines 3, 5 or 8

Certain draw numbers would favour those placed there as they would receive more home matches in the qualifying division,
however no team receiving a preliminary bye was at home in every match after that
1 = bye, home, home, away
2 = bye, away, home, away
3 = home or away, home, home, home
4 = bye, away, home, home
5 = home or away or bye, home, away, home
6 = bye, away, away, home
7 = bye, home, away, away
8 = home or away, away, away, away

Looking at the results of each division
Line 1 teams - two won their division but no others reached their divisional final (a total of 2 divisional finalists)
Line 2 teams - 8 winners & 9 runners-up (17)
Line 3 teams - 6 winners & 2 runners-up (8)
Line 4 teams - 1 winner & 2 runners-up (3)
Line 5 teams - 1 winner & 6 runners-up (7)
Line 6 teams - 9 winners & 9 runners-up (18)
Line 7 teams - 9 winners & 6 runners-up (15)
Line 8 teams - 0 winners & 2 runners-up (2)

This would seem to indicate the seeds came from lines 2, 6 or 7 who all played two of their three matches away
with line 3 perhaps punching above its weight due to having home matches in every round.

It might also indicate that weaker teams received certain lines too (1, 4 & 8).

Perhaps there was also a second seed in each group as well, maybe even a third.

Looking at the teams who reached the later rounds of the previous competition, but which were not exempted,
would presumably indicate the favourites for the seeded positions.

So Whitby, Chelmsford & Wealdstone who reached the 2nd Round in 1983-84 plus a further nine clubs
who reached the first round and twenty-four that fell at the fourth qualifying round make a coincidental total of 36 clubs
and it is interesting to see where they were placed the following season in the 36 geographical qualifying divisions.

There was not a one per division split but ten divisions had two of these 36 clubs, sixteen had one, but a further ten had none.

The draw lines they were given indicates that lines 2 & 7 were probably the seeds as they both had thirteen of these stronger clubs
with the third seeds being on line 6 which had eight. Only two (Guisborough and Basingstoke) of the thirty-six clubs were not on one
of these lines (2, 6 & 7) and they both had preliminary matches on line 8. Those two clubs possibly had had no other recent successes.

More seasons would need to be analysed and past performances over a longer period looked at
but for 1984-85 the 108 teams on lines 2, 6 & 7 all had "pedigree" as well as including 34 of the 36 teams
that had reached the fourth qualifying round in 1983-84 but had not been exempted for 1984-85.

(This post was edited by John Treleven on Jun 24, 2012, 6:15 PM)

forestman
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Re: [John Treleven] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

My understanding of it was that there was only one seeded team in each division, though i may be wrong on that, and there was a team at the FA who attempted to ensure that clubs in one group one season, especially if they had played each other, were placed in separate divisions the following season, this was to try to ensure clubs did not meet each other season after season. Though having said that as the division were regional in certain areas such as the north east and south west this was practically impossible, but for somewhere like the midlands and london and the south east it was a lot easier.
For example my club Leyton FC, now Waltham Forest, played one seaon with London club, i.e Walthamstow, Dulwich, Hounslow, the next we were in a Kent division with Canterbury, Margate and the following season in East Anglia with Stowmarket, Gorleston, Great Yarmouth

Richard Rundle
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Re: [forestman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is the first I've heard about seeded teams in the regional groupings, but I have previously heard about the desire to prevent teams from being in the same group three seasons in a row.

John Treleven
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Re: [forestman] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I had never heard of any seeding so just carried this out research to see if I could identify the seeds.

A good team on line 1 would be obvious but if there were 2nd & 3rd seeds, which are only a suggestion
because of what that seasons figures produced, then they may not have been so readily noticed on other lines.

Some geographical variation, where possible, from season to season, would make sense too
although in the extremities of the N.E. & S.W. that would be difficult. I think there were various
periods when Bideford regularly met Barnstaple and then Bideford regularly met Falmouth.

For the following season (1985-86) 5 clubs were elevated to exemption status - Bognor, Farnborough & Frickley
had all been on line 7 in Q1 in 1984-85, Burton line 6 and Whitby line 2.

There were 8 Gola (Conference) League sides not exempted in 1984-85.
Four were on line 6, 3 were on line 7 and the other was on line 2.

Six exempted clubs in 1984-85 lost that status for the following season (the extra team being because of
the adjustment made to give the Trophy finalists exemption to the first round). Three of those clubs
went on to line 6 in Q1, two on to line 7 and the other on to line 4.

The seeded lines were also varied from season to season.

For 1984-85 in each division it was (in divisional order)

Line 7 -
Billingham, Blyth, Bishop Auckland, North Shields, Barrow, Morecambe, Frickley, Accrington, Chorley,
Horwich, Eastwood, Grantham, Gainsborough, Bridgnorth, Bedworth, Oxford C, Alvechurch, Corby
Billericay, Basildon, Buckingham, Hendon, Fisher, Corinthian C, Crawley, Carshalton, Ashford (Kt),
Hastings, Dulwich, Bognor, Farnborough, Fareham, Poole, Barry, Cheltenham, Bath.
26 of the 36 (underlined) appear in the seeded lists again the following season (see below)
and a further 3 (Frickley, Bognor & Farnborough) were elevated to exempted status.

Line 2 -
Horden, Tow Law, Whitley Bay, Whitby, Marine, Southport, Rhyl, Witton, South Liverpool,
Winsford, Matlock, Worksop, Shepshed, Stafford, Willenhall, Sutton Coldfield, Rugby, Wellingborough,
March, Harlow, Hayes, Wealdstone, Hitchin, Welling, Walthamstow, Staines, Worthing,
Wareham, Tooting, Wokingham, Totton, Slough, Witney, Highgate, Trowbridge, Minehead.
23 of the 36 (underlined) appear in the seeded lists again the following season (see below)
and a further 2 (Whitby & Wealdstone, the latter as Trophy finalists) were elevated to exempted status.

Line 6 -
Gateshead, South Bank, Gretna, Spennymoor, Buxton, Runcorn, Oswestry, Hyde, Congleton,
Stalybridge, Goole, Sutton T, Nuneaton, Kidderminster, Burton, Oldbury, Leamington, Kings Lynn,
Lowestoft, Chelmsford, Chesham, Sutton U, Hampton, Leytonstone, Folkestone, Sittingbourne, Croydon,
Leatherhead, Gravesend, Epsom, Gosport, Road Sea, Waterlooville, Gloucester, Merthyr, Frome.
24 of the 36 (underlined) appear in the seeded lists again the following season (see below)
and another 1 (Burton) was elevated to exempted status.

Looking at the following season (1985-86)

Line 6 again looks strong -
Barrow, Scarborough, Gateshead, Morecambe, Workington, Runcorn, Chorley, Horwich, Hyde,
Marine, Witton, Worksop, Gainsborough, Shepshed, Dudley, Willenhall, Bedworth, Corby,
Alvechurch, Gorleston, Tring, Aylesbury, Billericay, Harrow, Hayes, Hendon, Slough,
Carshalton, Canterbury, Croydon, Met. Police, Basingstoke, Hungerford, Forest Green, Chippenham, Merthyr.
23 of the 36 (underlined) had appeared in the seeded lists the previous season (see above)
and a further 3 (Scarborough, Workington & Harrow) had just lost their exempted status.

Line 7 has -
Blue Star, Ryhope, South Bank, Tow Law, Penrith, Burscough, Southport, Rhyl, Oswestry,
Goole, Denaby, Alfreton, Bridgnorth, Halesowen, Hednesford, Moor Green, Witney, Hitchin,
Barking, Harlow, Wembley, Grays, Chelmsford, Egham, Leatherhead, Sutton U, Staines,
Kingstonian, Sittingbourne, Dulwich, Worthing, Fareham, Oxford C, Gloucester, Barry, Bath.
21 of the 36 (underlined) had appeared in the seeded lists the previous season (see above)
and a further 2 (Penrith & Barking) had just lost their exempted status.

Line 4 looks to be the third seeded line (if there was such a thing) -
Bishop Auckland, Blyth, Chester le Street, Gretna, North Shields, Mossley, Stalybridge, Formby, Winsford,
Buxton, South Liverpool, Matlock, Grantham, Stafford, Kidderminster, Nuneaton, Stourbridge, Rugby,
Kings Lynn, Heybridge, Walthamstow, Aveley, Buckingham, Crawley, Fisher, Gravesend, Welling,
Hastings, Epsom, Folkestone, Tooting, Wokingham, Gosport, Frome, Cheltenham, Clevedon T.
29 of the 36 (underlined) had appeared in the seeded lists the previous season (see above)
and another 1 (Mossley) had just lost their exempted status.

So a total of 79 of the 108 listed each season were seeded or exempted in both seasons.

Is that statistically robust enough to indicate that such a system was in operation?

acmold
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Historical 'steps' [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm sure I had heard of seeded teams in groups before. Also the changing of the groups each season so clubs did not meet year after year, though this must have only been for a few seasons because if you look at the 1950's teams seemed to play each on a regular basis. Maybe 1970's to mid / late 1980's, I only say that because when I was at Abingdon Town in the early 1990's they drew Bournemouth Poppies 2 or 3 times in a short space of time.

Looking at the 1980's and games I attended I can recall seeing Oxford City play Malvern (85/6) they had Bobby Shinton in their side. The previous season they had played Ampthill, Oldbury and Moor Green, but in 83/4 RS Southampton, 82/3 Dorchester, 81/2 Harrow, 80/1 Cheltenham, 79/0 Bridgend. Which tends to point to a swopping of teams.

I also recall from around that time when watching F.A. rep games in my area that the teams were more or less selected from the F.A's "Mid West?" area (according to the programmes) which appeared to be Oxon, Wilts, Glos, Worcs and Hereford.

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