Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 


  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: Ground Hopping & Programmes: International Hopping:
'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany

 



Chris1963
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 30, 2012, 7:32 PM

Posts: 4444
Location:
Team(s): Oxford United / Groundhopper

Post #1 of 16 (1464 views)
Shortcut
'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany Can't Post or Reply Privately

I attended the Oberliga Baden-Wurttenburg match between FV Offenburger and SV Spielberg last Saturday and this turned out to be my worst ever choice for a match that was not abandoned or postponed. Prior to the game, both teams were in the relegation zone, along with others all with a similar number of points. Now, this was not a sensible decision on my part as I should have known that an element of collusion between the teams was possible. However, I still went there anyway because it was a good use of my Inter-Rail card, having been to SAK Klagenfurt on Friday evening and planning to go to Ujpest on Sunday.

The first half of the match, although goalless, gave no cause for concern, with the home side hitting the bar on one occasion shortly before HT. However, as the second half went on, it became clear that results from other games was going in the favour of the visitors, and possibly the home side as well. With about 15 minutes to go, the Spielberg players started passing the ball slowly to each other, without any serious attempt by the home players to stop them. Needless to say, at that point it became obvious the game was going to end 0-0. Admittedly the stifling heat didn't help matters, but what really annoyed me was the fact that the referee did not do anything to stop this blatant cheating. He was perfectly entitled to book the players for time wasting, or even send them off (in which case SV Spielberg would probably have been punished by the league) but he did not do anything. Would a British referee have done the same?

When the final whistle went, both sets of players celebrated but the spectators did not join in, they just stood there in stony silence, obviously furious at having been treated with such contempt. What I would like to know, have any of you ever witnessed this sort of collusion in British football? I think there was a famous case involving Coventry and Bristol City sometime around 1976 or 1977 but I would hope that non-league football in the UK has avoided seeing this sort of thing. Your views would be welcome. In the meantime I think I may have to boycott German lower level football. Things got worse on Monday when I attended another 0-0 draw (although on this occasion there did not seem to be any collusion) at Bergisch-Gladbach in the NRW Oberliga. My heroes of the tour are Videoton, whose two late goals at Ujpest on Sunday narrowly averted the 'Doomsday' scenario of three consecutive 0-0 draws, something I have thankfully not yet witnessed!


(This post was edited by Chris1963 on May 30, 2012, 7:33 PM)


mick
First Team Star


May 30, 2012, 7:58 PM

Posts: 2340
Location:
Team(s):

Post #2 of 16 (1453 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Chris1963] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Admittedly the stifling heat didn't help matters, but what really annoyed me was the fact that the referee did not do anything to stop this blatant cheating. He was perfectly entitled to book the players for time wasting, or even send them off (in which case SV Spielberg would probably have been punished by the league) but he did not do anything.

What I would like to know, have any of you ever witnessed this sort of collusion in British football? I think there was a famous case involving Coventry and Bristol City sometime around 1976 or 1977


Is this really cheating
?

Which Law(s) of the game would he invoke here ?

The Coventry - Bristol City game was witnessed by many on here, myself included, and has been discussed in length previously.


mip
Chelsea Transfer Target


May 30, 2012, 8:23 PM

Posts: 5300
Location: Odense, Denmark
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #3 of 16 (1441 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Chris1963] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The first half of the match, although goalless, gave no cause for concern, with the home side hitting the bar on one occasion shortly before HT. However, as the second half went on, it became clear that results from other games was going in the favour of the visitors, and possibly the home side as well. With about 15 minutes to go, the Spielberg players started passing the ball slowly to each other, without any serious attempt by the home players to stop them. Needless to say, at that point it became obvious the game was going to end 0-0. Admittedly the stifling heat didn't help matters, but what really annoyed me was the fact that the referee did not do anything to stop this blatant cheating. He was perfectly entitled to book the players for time wasting, or even send them off (in which case SV Spielberg would probably have been punished by the league) but he did not do anything. Would a British referee have done the same?



So with both teams safe from the drop with a draw, they didn't play for the last 15 minutes. With a 30 game season (? - I'm guessing) this equates to about 1% of the season. Sounds quite sensible to me.

Are you suggesting the referee should book the SV Spielberg players for passing the ball to each other? Barcelona would get a hard time if that rule was enforced Wink.


buncranaboy
Man City Transfer Target!


May 30, 2012, 8:41 PM

Posts: 11621
Location: South Birmingham
Team(s): Barnstoneworth United; Bostock Stanley

Post #4 of 16 (1437 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mip] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Republic of Ireland v Holland in Palermo, World Cup 1990; exactly the same scenario in the group of sloth. Everyone happy.


leohoenig
Administrator

May 30, 2012, 11:56 PM

Posts: 7561
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #5 of 16 (1392 views)
Shortcut
Re: [buncranaboy] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Kicker says that between two and six teams are to be relegated, but only shades the bottom two in another colour.
The bottom two places were known as Kircheim/Teck (folded) and Bonlanden before the day started.
Fussball.de shades all of the six places as if for relegation, including both teams in Chris' match

The most crucial result was Normannia Gmund 1-2 Bonlanden. This confirmed Gmund on 33 points
Stuttgart Kickers II and Spielburg started the day on 32 points, Offenburger on 33, but with inferior goal difference to Normannia.
For all of this trio, the point lifted them one place up the table.

Can anyone confirm the number of relegation places and play offs in question. I feel that while Chris may have seen a dull and boring match, from which neither team got relegated, I cannot help but feel he has mis understood the situation. Clearly they cannot both have moved from a relegation position from safety on the day.



Fat AND Pompous.
I was going to list all my grounds for the season, but the moderator said five lines only.
Now blogging at www.leohoenig.com


mip
Chelsea Transfer Target


May 31, 2012, 12:23 AM

Posts: 5300
Location: Odense, Denmark
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #6 of 16 (1386 views)
Shortcut
Re: [leohoenig] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Kicker says that between two and six teams are to be relegated, but only shades the bottom two in another colour.
The bottom two places were known as Kircheim/Teck (folded) and Bonlanden before the day started.
Fussball.de shades all of the six places as if for relegation, including both teams in Chris' match

The most crucial result was Normannia Gmund 1-2 Bonlanden. This confirmed Gmund on 33 points
Stuttgart Kickers II and Spielburg started the day on 32 points, Offenburger on 33, but with inferior goal difference to Normannia.
For all of this trio, the point lifted them one place up the table.

Can anyone confirm the number of relegation places and play offs in question. I feel that while Chris may have seen a dull and boring match, from which neither team got relegated, I cannot help but feel he has mis understood the situation. Clearly they cannot both have moved from a relegation position from safety on the day.



According to this site http://www.fussball-in-bw.de/...-wue/uebersicht.html three teams are relegated. Normannia Gmünd must be kicking themselves for losing against Bonladen, 0-0 until the 77th minute and a single pont would have saved Gmünd.

Relegation is explained here http://www.badfv.de/...gelung_2011_-_12.pdf. Note that FV Illertissen who finished 4th are promoted to the new Regionalliga Bayern. Illertissen is in Bayern but very close to Baden-Württemberg so the club has until now been a member of the Württembergischen Fußball-Verband but change to the Bayerischen Landesverband this summer. Presumably because Bayern got its own Regionalliga division.


leohoenig
Administrator

May 31, 2012, 8:03 AM

Posts: 7561
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #7 of 16 (1365 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mip] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Even that is confusing, the document says that it should be 1 up to RL, 0 from RL, 4 from VL and 3 to VLer
However, four clubs including Stuttgart Kickers are shaded on their table.
And as said, fourth place Illertissen joins Bayern

So 2 to RL, 3 to VL, 4 up - 17 only next season?
The match report for the Stuttgart Kickers game says that after coming back from 2-0 to 2-2, Kickers played a "dot" game as this suited both teams, knowing Gmumd were then 2-0 down.



Fat AND Pompous.
I was going to list all my grounds for the season, but the moderator said five lines only.
Now blogging at www.leohoenig.com


mip
Chelsea Transfer Target


May 31, 2012, 9:51 AM

Posts: 5300
Location: Odense, Denmark
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #8 of 16 (1350 views)
Shortcut
Re: [leohoenig] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Even that is confusing, the document says that it should be 1 up to RL, 0 from RL, 4 from VL and 3 to VLer
However, four clubs including Stuttgart Kickers are shaded on their table.
And as said, fourth place Illertissen joins Bayern

So 2 to RL, 3 to VL, 4 up - 17 only next season?
The match report for the Stuttgart Kickers game says that after coming back from 2-0 to 2-2, Kickers played a "dot" game as this suited both teams, knowing Gmumd were then 2-0 down.



Yes, confusing for us but I think the involved clubs would have known where things stood before their last game. It also depends if anyone is coming down from the Regionalliga which there in principle shouldn't be unless there are issues with someone's license.

I think we can conclude that at most three go down. Then either they play with 17 teams next season, an extra team is promoted to make it 18 or Gmünd stay up to make it 18.

As for Chris' game, it seems that happenings elsewhere meant that both teams knew they'd be safe with a draw towards the end of the game. Lucky for them but luck's allowed.


DavetheGlassboy
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 31, 2012, 10:56 AM

Posts: 3401
Location: Oldbury, West Midlands
Team(s): Stourbridge FC, Warrington RLFC

Post #9 of 16 (1335 views)
Shortcut
Re: [buncranaboy] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Republic of Ireland v Holland in Palermo, World Cup 1990; exactly the same scenario in the group of sloth. Everyone happy.


Was it Italy v Mexico in 2002 where something similar happened?

Even at the Denmark v Sweden game in Euro 2000, even though both sides had gone for it for 87 minutes they each settled for the result in the last few.



Last new ground (575): Bentley Youth - Red Star Alma v Malvern Rangers 6/5/13
Last game: Darlaston v Wolves Sporting 7/5/13
Last new RL ground (67): Butts Park Arena - Coventry v St Albans 30/6/12
Last RL game: Huddersfield v Warrington 5/4/13

(This post was edited by DavetheGlassboy on May 31, 2012, 10:56 AM)


mip
Chelsea Transfer Target


May 31, 2012, 11:05 AM

Posts: 5300
Location: Odense, Denmark
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #10 of 16 (1331 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DavetheGlassboy] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Republic of Ireland v Holland in Palermo, World Cup 1990; exactly the same scenario in the group of sloth. Everyone happy.


Was it Italy v Mexico in 2002 where something similar happened?

Even at the Denmark v Sweden game in Euro 2000, even though both sides had gone for it for 87 minutes they each settled for the result in the last few.



Most (in)famous game being Germany v Austria in the 1982 World Cup where a German 1-0 win meant Austria and Germany proceeded from the group at the expense of Algeria who had played earlier. This game was 80 minutes of pushing the ball around.


chris41
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 31, 2012, 1:52 PM

Posts: 4385
Location:
Team(s): Coventry City

Post #11 of 16 (1291 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mick] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Admittedly the stifling heat didn't help matters, but what really annoyed me was the fact that the referee did not do anything to stop this blatant cheating. He was perfectly entitled to book the players for time wasting, or even send them off (in which case SV Spielberg would probably have been punished by the league) but he did not do anything.

What I would like to know, have any of you ever witnessed this sort of collusion in British football? I think there was a famous case involving Coventry and Bristol City sometime around 1976 or 1977


Is this really cheating
?

Which Law(s) of the game would he invoke here ?

The Coventry - Bristol City game was witnessed by many on here, myself included, and has been discussed in length previously.


The collusion only occurred in the last 5 minutes when the result of the Everton v Sunderland match was flashed up onto the electronic scoreboard.Also of course very little time was added on back then after 90 minutes play.It still took a few minutes after the Sunderland game ended for the result to be flashed up on to the Highfield Road scoreboard. Bristol City scored an equaliser at about the same time that the Everton v Sunderland game had finished and therefore a draw would have meant both sides stayed up. If Sunderland had got any sort of result at Everton, the result of the Coventry and Bristol City game was irrelevent. My recollection is that the kick-off was delayed for 15 minutes to allow a surplus of Bristol City fans into the ground. An unexpected 14,000 of them made the trip up to Highfield Road that night. Surely if that was so then it was the correct decision to delay the kick off in view of tragic events in later years. Agree that it was probably not very wise of Bristol City's manager Alan Dicks and Coventry's manager Gordon Milne to be photographed together celebrating both clubs staying up




(This post was edited by chris41 on May 31, 2012, 1:59 PM)


Matty
Youth Team Star

May 31, 2012, 3:51 PM

Posts: 364
Location:
Team(s): All things Derbyshire

Post #12 of 16 (1267 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mip] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Republic of Ireland v Holland in Palermo, World Cup 1990; exactly the same scenario in the group of sloth. Everyone happy.


Was it Italy v Mexico in 2002 where something similar happened?

Even at the Denmark v Sweden game in Euro 2000, even though both sides had gone for it for 87 minutes they each settled for the result in the last few.



Most (in)famous game being Germany v Austria in the 1982 World Cup where a German 1-0 win meant Austria and Germany proceeded from the group at the expense of Algeria who had played earlier. This game was 80 minutes of pushing the ball around.



Without looking up - was it a 3 team group format - that or the final group games did nt ko at same time - think this incident brought about or hastened simultaneous ko's.
Remember watching the game and it was pretty obvious


zebedee
First Team Star

May 31, 2012, 4:53 PM

Posts: 2008
Location: Southport. Southportshire, Republic of Southport
Team(s): Southport

Post #13 of 16 (1252 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matty] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Republic of Ireland v Holland in Palermo, World Cup 1990; exactly the same scenario in the group of sloth. Everyone happy.


Was it Italy v Mexico in 2002 where something similar happened?

Even at the Denmark v Sweden game in Euro 2000, even though both sides had gone for it for 87 minutes they each settled for the result in the last few.



Most (in)famous game being Germany v Austria in the 1982 World Cup where a German 1-0 win meant Austria and Germany proceeded from the group at the expense of Algeria who had played earlier. This game was 80 minutes of pushing the ball around.



Without looking up - was it a 3 team group format - that or the final group games did nt ko at same time - think this incident brought about or hastened simultaneous ko's.
Remember watching the game and it was pretty obvious


The Austria v West Germany match was the final game of a first round group at the 1982 World Cup. It was a four team group but for some reason the final games weren't simultaneous. The result saw the Austrians and West Germans both qualify for the second round, another group phase, this time involving groups of three.



1253 (144) Eagle Sports 2-0 Pilkington
Cheshire One at Thornton Road, Warrington


chris41
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 31, 2012, 4:59 PM

Posts: 4385
Location:
Team(s): Coventry City

Post #14 of 16 (1249 views)
Shortcut
Re: [zebedee] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately




Most (in)famous game being Germany v Austria in the 1982 World Cup where a German 1-0 win meant Austria and Germany proceeded from the group at the expense of Algeria who had played earlier. This game was 80 minutes of pushing the ball around.



Without looking up - was it a 3 team group format - that or the final group games did nt ko at same time - think this incident brought about or hastened simultaneous ko's.
Remember watching the game and it was pretty obvious


The Austria v West Germany match was the final game of a first round group at the 1982 World Cup. It was a four team group but for some reason the final games weren't simultaneous. The result saw the Austrians and West Germans both qualify for the second round, another group phase, this time involving groups of three.


Yes beat me to it. Immediately after that all final group games were to kick off at the same time starting in The 1984 Euro Nations Championships


mip
Chelsea Transfer Target


May 31, 2012, 5:08 PM

Posts: 5300
Location: Odense, Denmark
Team(s): Portsmouth, OB, Svendborg fB, Tved B

Post #15 of 16 (1242 views)
Shortcut
Re: [zebedee] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

The Austria v West Germany match was the final game of a first round group at the 1982 World Cup. It was a four team group but for some reason the final games weren't simultaneous. The result saw the Austrians and West Germans both qualify for the second round, another group phase, this time involving groups of three.



Algeria had lead Chile 3-0 in their last game but Chile got two goals back in the 2nd half. If Algeria had held onto a 3-0 win, Austria wouldn't have proceeded with a 1-0 loss. And of course it was all brought about by Algeria's shock 2-1 win against Germany.

1982 was a World Cup finals with a few controversial moments, wasn't it between France and Kuwait that a sheikh got a goal disallowed and then there was Schumacher's flattening of Battiston in the semi final.

And on a positive note, that cracking Italy v Brazil game.


(This post was edited by mip on May 31, 2012, 5:13 PM)


Ropemaker
First Team Sub

Jun 11, 2012, 1:29 PM

Posts: 1134
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #16 of 16 (952 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chris41] 'Collusion' and 0-0 draws in Germany [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To


The Austria v West Germany match was the final game of a first round group at the 1982 World Cup. It was a four team group but for some reason the final games weren't simultaneous. The result saw the Austrians and West Germans both qualify for the second round, another group phase, this time involving groups of three.


Yes beat me to it. Immediately after that all final group games were to kick off at the same time starting in The 1984 Euro Nations Championships


Not that they weren't forewarned to the dangers of non-simultaneous final group games.

Argentina 6 Peru 0 at the World Cup 1978!!



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

 
 


The Soccerlinks Hit List

free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SOCCERLINKS v.1.2.3