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cope1
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May 30, 2012, 4:11 PM

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Club Cricket	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just thought I'd start this thread for discussion about club cricket which is favourite type. In the same way that we discuss league structures, new clubs and all other matters in the rest of this forum I am interested in these things on a club cricket front.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

cope1
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May 30, 2012, 4:13 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

To start us off I am interested in views on the strengths of the various Premier Leagues. Any views? My statistical research for 2011 only (so far) show Brum and Middx up top.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

(This post was edited by cope1 on May 30, 2012, 6:15 PM)

AndyE
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May 30, 2012, 11:26 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Now there's a question which has started a few arguments in cricket club bars!

I'm guessing that your statistical research is based on National Knockout results, and there's isn't really any other obvious way to do it. There are difficulties with that approach though; notably, it will rate the Middlesex League as though all its clubs were Ealing. Which they are not - the Eels have now won it seven years in a row, and below the top four the Middlesex League isn't really much good.

As for Birmingham, I quite often hear that it's not as good as it used to be - but to be fair, I hear that about nearly every other league too. It's probably easier to say which are the weakest of the Premier Leagues, and those are North Wales, Lincolnshire, and Northamptonshire. (North Wales's leading clubs play in the Liverpool and District rather, which sets up journeys like Colwyn Bay to Lytham. Lincolnshire's leading club plays in the Yorkshire League. Northamptonshire doesn't have a leading club.)

The only leagues which I can really compare for strength are the six in the south east. I suppose I'd better declare an interest and say that I'm involved with a club in the Kent Premier. If we assume that a league is as good as its middle placed clubs, I'd place them in the following order:

1. Home Counties
2. Kent
3. Middlesex
4. Sussex
5. Surrey
6. Essex

Home Counties and Kent are where the money is. Middlesex pretends that it's strictly amateur, to the extent that clubs will tell you "Of course the league isn't strictly amateur. We are, honest, but some of the other clubs ...". Sussex was ordinary when I played one season in it (1998), but I get the impression that it's come up quite a bit in the last few years. Surrey suffers from a vast number of resident South Africans who aren't as good as they think they are, and from Surrey CCC taking little interest in the league. As for Essex, I've been shocked to see just how poor their Premier teams are when I've seen them in cup games.

cope1
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May 31, 2012, 2:59 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thanks Andy, that's the sort of info I was looking for. I've done the same analysis for 2009-2011 CCC Cup which, if you go by winning percentage, puts the Southern League top, but they have very few entrants which skews it. Of those with significant numbers involved Kent come out top on 61%, Essex are on 52% and Middx on 50%.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

AndyE
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May 31, 2012, 10:37 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

How many Southern League clubs have ever played in the CCC Cup? Ventnor is the only one I can think of - and two years running they had to withdraw because the CCC wouldn't allow them to move a game away from Isle of Wight Festival weekend, and they couldn't travel to the mainland that weekend because the ferries were booked out months ahead.

Kent does do rather well in the CCC Cup it has to be said, much as Middlesex dominated its predecessor the Evening Standard Trophy. Wycombe Warriors apart, the Home Counties does less well in the cups. That's not because the league is weaker than Kent or Middlesex - it isn't - but because most of the best English players in Home Counties play Minor Counties cricket, which happens mainly on Sundays, and so are not available to their clubs.

The six (or eight, if we include Southern and East Anglia) Premier Leagues in the south east really ought to turn themselves into a pyramid, but whenever I say so I get little support. Angus Fraser is keen, but precious few others in the corridors of power are. The ECB doesn't want to pay for it, and even players aren't as keen as you might expect.

26 Premier Leagues is just too many; the best clubs and the best players are too diluted. Five pyramids would be better; that's probably unattainable, but a London pyramid and a Midlands pyramid certainly ought to be possible. (Football isn't a great comparison since even at Step 4 nearly all the players are paid. But there's very little money in hockey, and they still manage a national pyramid - albeit a rather lopsdided 1:3:5:5:9 shaped pyramid.)

Billybadknees
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Jun 1, 2012, 1:18 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Any thoughts on how the Derbys & Notts Prems stand up to the rest of the country? Yorkshire Prem appears to be a bit of an anomaly to me. Whilst there are undoubtedly some good players in it, this also holds true for Huddersfield League, Bradford League and even South Yorkshire League. Surely these would have to feed into it to make it a genuine Premier League for the whole county?

Sig-lite!

PaulC
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Jun 1, 2012, 1:41 PM

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Re: [Billybadknees] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's a pity the Lancashire League chooses not to participate.

It would allow us all to see that its clubs aren't quite as good as they seem to think they are.

AndyE
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Jun 1, 2012, 4:34 PM

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Re: [PaulC] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

It surely would! They choose not to play in the National Knockout either - and I'm sure they would if they though they might win it! The reason that quite a number of the long established leagues in Lancashire and Yorkshire choose to remain independent of the ECB system was a mixture of politics, Northern bloody mindedness, and in some cases a reluctance to play cricket which allowed draws. (Which the ECB insists upon, although that attitude is softening.)

I'm not really sure how you'd compare the strengths of the various leagues in Lancashire. The Liverpool and District and the Northern would both claim to be the strongest, but then so would the Lancashire and the Bolton.

As for Yorkshire, the received wisdom seems to be that the Bradford is at least as strong as the Yorkshire. The South Yorkshire and the York and District would make obvious pyramid partners for the Yorkshire, but they're not interested - although most of the Yorkshire League clubs have their 2nd and 3rd XIs in those two leagues. At one time the North Yorkshire South Durham was talking about being in a Yorkshire pyramid too, but as of this year has become a Premier League in its own right. I went on a tour to NYSD country once; the standard looked pretty good to me. Aamir Sohail hit me a long way!

Derbyshire and Notts clubs have both done pretty well in the National Knockout over the years. I don't really know how good those leagues are - are they perhaps like Middlesex, in that the top three or four clubs would give anyone in the land a game but the rest are not special?

cope1
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Jun 1, 2012, 7:52 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is great guys - exactly the sort of thing I'm after! I'm still completing my ECB Knocknout analysis for 2011 (which does contain Lancs County clubs - well, at least 1) and have wondered about the idea of having pyramids.

It seems to me that a London Premier (or 'Super' to differentiate from all the 'Premier' Leagues, although I do think that makes it sound like a computer game) League would be more than feasible, but unlikely for the reasons you state.

Is there an LCC cup too, equivalent to the CCC?

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

cope1
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Jun 1, 2012, 7:58 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

PS. are there any inter-league competitions up north, which pit clubs from different leagues against each other?

Also, I hadn't realised that the northern leagues were against draws. Perhaps it's something to do with the weather!

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

PaulC
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Jun 1, 2012, 8:09 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

There was a inter-league trophy 2001-2006 for Lancs League and Central Lancs League.

Clubs from all leagues (but not all clubs) enter the Lancashire Cup. http://www.lancashirecricket.co.uk/...s/LCBCupDraw2012.pdf

cope1
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Jun 2, 2012, 9:52 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cheers Paul.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

wishmaster3211
First Team Regular

Jun 2, 2012, 2:08 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I dont follow below MCCA level, but talking to players and fans I had assumed a Pyramid was already in place Nationally? Seemed to be a very detailed structure based on what i had heard and read in local papers. Is this not the case then?

Certainly the structure in the South West appeared similar to that which I read about in the North East. very much based on the way football is organised even down to grounds being graded.

"You can't score runs in the Pavilion, you've got to stay in and grind them down"

Checkout my Facebook page "Proper Football Grounds"

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cope1
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Jun 2, 2012, 7:07 PM

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Re: [wishmaster3211] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

As noted further up, there are 26 ECB accredited 'premier leagues'. In the south west that'll be Cornwall, Devon and West of England. There is no promotion above that and, in the home counties, there 6 (Essex, Middx, Kent, Home Counties, Surrey and Sussex).

So in a word, no, there is no national pyramid. I won't pretend I know a huge amount about it - in fact the others posting in this thread will probably know more than I do - but it seems like it'd be a good idea but in certain areas (London especially) it sounds like clubs and leagues have no interest in changing the status quo.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

wishmaster3211
First Team Regular

Jun 3, 2012, 3:56 AM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Ok, so you cant get above the Regional Premier Leagues. Below that I understood a full structure was in place. I dont think I expected a sort of Conference style National League, just that Regions all stopped at the same level.

"You can't score runs in the Pavilion, you've got to stay in and grind them down"

Checkout my Facebook page "Proper Football Grounds"

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AndyE
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Jun 4, 2012, 12:01 AM

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Re: [wishmaster3211] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In theory the 26 Premier Leagues are all equal to one another, but in practice they vary hugely in standard.

There is also considerable variation in the size of the pyramid structures. At one extreme we have Northern and Yorkshire, both of which have no promotion or relegation and hence no pyramid at all. Most of the country has a pyramid of some sort but also has non-pyramid leagues, while at the other extreme comes the East Anglia pyramid which has in total 55 divisions.

The 26 Premier Leagues are: Birmingham and District (Shropshire, Mid Wales, Staffs, Warwickshire, Worcs), Cheshire, Cornwall, Derbyshire, Devon, East Anglia (Cambs, North Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk), Essex (only one club north of Chelmsford), Home Counties (Herts, Berks, Bucks, Oxon), Kent, Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, Liverpool and District, Middlesex, North East (Durham and Northumberland), North Staffordshire and South Cheshire (Stoke on Trent, mainly), North Wales, North Yorkshire and South Durham (mainly Darlington and Teesside), Northern (centred on Preston), Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire, South Wales, Southern (Hampshire), Surrey, Sussex, West of England (Gloucs, Somerset, Wiltshire), Yorkshire (includes no clubs west of Leeds).

Bedfordshire, Cumberland and Dorset are not really covered by the Premier League system. There are a handful of Beds clubs in the lower divisions of East Anglia, Home Counties, and Northants, but the main competition is the Bedfordshire League, an independent competition played on Sundays. There are three Cumbrian clubs in the Northern League, but otherwise it's the independent North Lancashire and Cumbria League (since Carnforth CC switched to the Northern, there are now no Lancashire clubs in this league). As for Dorset, Bournemouth CC play in the Southern League, but otherwise there's the Dorset League which is again independent of the system.

Lancashire and Yorkshire have numerous independent leagues, some of which are of a comparable standard to the Premier Leagues. But in the rest of the country, everyone who is any good plays in one of the Premier League systems.

cope1
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Jun 4, 2012, 10:51 AM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

My impression is that, in terms of standards and set-up, it's like looking at the countries within UEFA. Each country's top division is the highest you can go in that part of Europe but the standards vary considerably. Similarly, some countries have extensive, integrated pyramids. Some countries are Scotland ;)

The anomalies make it interesting for me, rather than detracting from it. I have tried to put together, as far as possible, a pyramid diagram, but it's not something you could every fit on a reasonable sized sheet of paper!

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

Billybadknees
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Jun 11, 2012, 1:34 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

From memory (which isn't what it used to be) there is the Heavy Woollen Cup, which pits Yorkshire teams against each other and also the Yorkshire Council competition?

Sig-lite!

PaulC
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Jun 11, 2012, 5:36 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Also, I hadn't realised that the northern leagues were against draws.

The Northern League has winning draws and losing draws - not to mention different points for winning/losing batting first or second.

Won Batting First (15 points)
Lost Batting Second (0 points)
Won Batting Second (12 points)
Lost Batting First (0 points)
Winning Draw (4 points)
Losing Draw (1 points)
Tied (5 points)

AndyE
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Jun 12, 2012, 11:37 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Draws are going out of fashion quite rapidly. When the Premier Leagues started, the ECB required draws to be available, and this was one of the reasons why the Lancashire League didn't want to become a Premier League.

The Southern League, however, was allowed to adopt a system where you play each team once with a draw available and once without. For several years it was unique in this, but Surrey, Kent, and Essex have adopted the same system in the last three years. Kent to my knowledge and possibly others enquired about ditching draws altogether, but were told that the ECB would not allow this.

Even so, the ECB had allowed Yorkshire to ditch draws completely in 2003. It also allows Yorkshire not to have a pyramid - another thing which is supposed to be compulsory. Y'see, it really doesn't want England's largest county to walk away from the Premier League system.

That ECB thinking about draws is changing though. For this season it has allowed West of England to ditch draws, and others seem likely to follow. Not Middlesex, whose match rules have hardly changed in forty years, but I suspect that draws will be a thing of the past everywhere else by 2020.

wishmaster3211
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Jun 14, 2012, 7:09 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

How can you not have a draw in cricket??

"You can't score runs in the Pavilion, you've got to stay in and grind them down"

Checkout my Facebook page "Proper Football Grounds"

facebook.com/paul.fergusson

cope1
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Jun 14, 2012, 8:42 PM

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Re: [wishmaster3211] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

From what I can see it's about terminology. The Yorkshire League has 'incomplete wins' which is what in Middlesex might be called a 'winning draw'. In the West of England you get 10 points for a win and 8 points for a cancelled match (and 5 for an abandoned match!).

I may be wrong though - it's happened before ;)

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

Billybadknees
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Jun 15, 2012, 1:02 PM

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Re: [cope1] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Ours are called incomplete wins too (Sheaf Sports Yorkshire & Derbyshire League).

Sig-lite!

Jamesie
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Jun 15, 2012, 1:11 PM

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Re: [Billybadknees] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or

In Reply To

Ours are called incomplete wins too (Sheaf Sports Yorkshire & Derbyshire League).

As in...?

'ow'= Outright Win (25 points)(Win & bowl out the opposition.)
'iw'= Incomplete Win (20 points)(Win & fail to bowl out the opposition.)
'c'= Cancelled (8 points)(Match does not commence due to weather.)
'il'= Incomplete Loss (0 points)(Lose, but failed to be bowled out.)
'ol'= Outright Loss (0 points)(Lose & bowled out.)
'bp' = Bonus Points
'pen' = Penalty Points

So...

P=6 OW=0 IW=0 C=1 IL=1 OL=5 BP=14 PEN=0 PTS=22

Cool

Just a note to anyone who is wondering, I am no longer a moderator of this forum due to current personal circumstances and work commitments. If you need help, contact leohoenig or Steve walker. Thank You.

Billybadknees
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Jun 15, 2012, 1:26 PM

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Re: [Jamesie] Club Cricket [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Try the 1st XI Jamesie of which I am skipper Tongue

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