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garethwrexy
Chelsea Transfer Target

Apr 8, 2012, 6:05 PM

Posts: 3462
Location: whitford near holywell north wales
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grand national 2012	Can't Post or Reply Privately

going for
on his own 16-1
midnight chase 33-1

wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

buncranaboy
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Apr 8, 2012, 6:08 PM

Posts: 11744
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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

going for
on his own 16-1
midnight chase 33-1

Given your track record, there's two to avoid!

Richard Rundle
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Apr 8, 2012, 6:31 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

going for
on his own 16-1
midnight chase 33-1

On what basis?

garethwrexy
Chelsea Transfer Target

Apr 8, 2012, 7:37 PM

Posts: 3462
Location: whitford near holywell north wales
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Re: [Richard Rundle] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

luck

wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

Richard Rundle
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Apr 9, 2012, 11:55 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not that much luck as Midnight Chase has been taken out

garethwrexy
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Apr 14, 2012, 9:01 AM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

got my bets placed, hope fate is on my side today

wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

Feversham Lens
Reserve Team Regular

Apr 14, 2012, 6:15 PM

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Location: York
Team(s): (FC) Halifax Town (from 1973), South Liverpool (1983-86)

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

High time this barbaric farce was banned. The self-regulating racing 'industry' can't (or won't) sort out the National, so let's get rid. No such thing as a harmless flutter...

There's as much pride in this club as there is at Anfield - just fewer people showing it.
If you don't like it, don't ****ing come.

Isaac
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Apr 14, 2012, 6:36 PM

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Re: [Feversham Lens] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

High time this barbaric farce was banned. The self-regulating racing 'industry' can't (or won't) sort out the National, so let's get rid. No such thing as a harmless flutter...

Well said, I couldn't agree more

garethwrexy
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Apr 14, 2012, 7:30 PM

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Re: [Isaac] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

rubbish no winners this year Mad

wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

GrundyHiller
First Team Sub

Apr 14, 2012, 11:21 PM

Posts: 1035
Location: Lancashire
Team(s): Horwich RMI, Bolton Wanderers

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

As a horse owner for over 30 years I think it's a barbaric event and should be banned and the apologists including BBC commentators and presenters and trainers should take a long hard look at themselves. The winning trainer's interview on BBC 5Live afterwards with Mark Poogathch was simply disgraceful. Only Cornelius Lysghat (check spelling) seemed to strike the right balance. To lose a horse that had won the Cheltenham Gold Cup less than a month before in those circumstances was appalling. How can you have a so-called sporting event where particiapnts routinely die? The racing industry is a disgrace.

Rob North
First Team Regular

Apr 15, 2012, 5:54 PM

Posts: 1229
Location: Dunfermline
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Re: [GrundyHiller] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Grundyhiller

That last comment is totally unfair on the vast majority of people within horse racing who care passionately about the animals they are involved with. given that you profess to be 'a horse owner of some 30 years' I find it surprising that you damn so many in such a way. I didn't hear the radio coverage but did feel that the BBC TV team dealt with the issue sensitively. Winning trainer Paul Nicholls's comments were sadly typically crass.

That aside, even as a dyed-in-the-wool jump racing I feel very uncomfortable with the way the Grand National is going. Cornelius Lysaght's article on the BBC does however pose some uncomfortable questions that should be addressed by the Aintree and the BHA. Minor tinkering with the course did little to make the race safer. Accidents are being caused by speed and speed is caused by the number of runners in the race. A 'herd' of 40 runners is inevitably going travel much faster than one of 10 or 20 and the race could be made much safer simply by halving the size of the field. However, I do question whether the race has any sort of future after deaths of two horses in each of two consecutive contests.

I have a small share in a steeplechaser who runs on the Northern circuit. He's not good enough to qualify for the National, but I'm pretty sure that syndicate members as a group would shy away from the event.

Rob

(This post was edited by Rob North on Apr 15, 2012, 6:16 PM)

Whiskey Coates
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Apr 15, 2012, 6:19 PM

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Location: Bridlington
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Re: [Rob North] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Horses have always died in this race, it's only now that people seem to care.

Thirty three horses have died in the last forty years and 11 since 2000, 4 of those in the last 2. So much for making it 'safer', but like Rob says, it's probably more to do with the number of participants that the actual course itself, although about one third of all deaths were at Beecher's Brook so clearly that needs looking at (again)!

Statistically a horse is roughly twice as likely to die during The National than any other steeplechase.

Thanks Wikipedia.

"Trying is just the first step towards failure, but failure is never quite so frightening as regret".

GrundyHiller
First Team Sub

Apr 15, 2012, 9:36 PM

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Re: [Rob North] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hi Rob
I respect your opinion and know you are a reasonable and well rounded person. I wish you'd contribute more on this board as I always find your reports and opinions of value. I have a considerable experience of the racing industry through people I know who are bookmakers or racehorse owners. As a family we have owned six horses in our lives and my daughters have competed at Pony Club and later British Eventing competitions. We have friends who own horses who are former racehorses. I've also visited 40 race tracks in the last ten years so have a reasonable view of the sport. In my opinion the welfare issue comes pretty low on some people's priorities. This website makes interesting and disturbing reading- they say 420 racehorses a year are killed in the sport. I remember one horrible day I spent at Uttoxeter when three horses died in a meeting- reaction varied from the compassionate to the heartless. My wife and two daughters who are all far more horsey than me simply can't watch races like the Grand National- the issue of Syncronised running so soon after the Cheltenham Gold Cup also needs looking at, particularly as the horse bolted at the start and in my opinion should have been pulled out.
The website's here:
http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

(This post was edited by GrundyHiller on Apr 15, 2012, 9:39 PM)

andy1886
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Apr 16, 2012, 7:02 AM

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Re: [GrundyHiller] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am also a keen racegoer to national hunt and point to point racing and work in the betting industry . I have kept off the subject of horse racing on this board for a year now but on the topic of saturdays race , one of the dead horses was brought down by a faller whilst the other , I am led to believe , fell but carried on running and jumped 5 fences before suffering its fracture . The number of runners could of affected the first and the fences the other so yes the number of runners could be reduced but to what number , 35 ? 30 ? 25 ? The fences could be made smaller but horses would run faster , the biggest fence is the Chair which doesnot seem to cause too many problems , I feel they could level all the drops so the landing side is flat and level with the take off side but ultimately it is the sternest test of the National Hunt season .
As for the Gold Cup winner running so soon , the same stable with the same owner ran another Cheltenham winner in the national and it finished a very close second . It ran 1 day earlier over 1 furlong shorter and carried one pound more than Synchronised but in a larger field .
I think at the end of the day those who dont like the Grand National have plenty of scope and ammunition for their argument whilst those who like and enjoy it have a tougher time defending it .

Rob North
First Team Regular

Apr 16, 2012, 9:06 AM

Posts: 1229
Location: Dunfermline
Team(s): Didcot Town, Reading

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Re: [GrundyHiller] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Grundyhiller

As it happens the reason I've not been contributing so much on here recently is that I've been watching more horse racing. I've watched the behaviour of thousands of horses in that time and it wasn't Synchronised's running away that worried me, it was more his reaction when Tony McCoy showed him the first fence. He clearly didn't fancy it and McCoy should have said no and I believe he has serious questions to answer.

If the race conitnues the number of runners should be halved. This immediately takes out a pe3rcentage of the risk caused by crowding and excessive speed. They will be 30 runners in the Scottish National this coming Saturday and that's too many.

I and many of the regular racegoers I meet at Scottish courses are concerned about the welfare of horses and don't like to see horses pushed beyond their limits. Even the hard-bitten bookmakers remember who their owe for their livelihood, the round of applause from them when local steeplechaser More Shennanigans passed the stands having been down after a fall will stick in the memory. At Perth a couple of years back I remember a delay in the races as a dazed fallen hurdler was gently brought back to his senses in a touching scene acted out down the course. I witnessed it at close quarters and a number of people showed patience and care to see that the horse was okay, trainer Tom George in particular gaining a lot of respect. Unfortunately there is also a down side and one Scottish trainer was guilty of running a blatantly lame horse at Kelso last spring.

Sadly I agree with you that there are too many who attend meetings who don't care though. I suspect that most of the 70,000 at Aintree on Saturday were happy as long as they have food to eat, alcohol to empty down themselves and bookmakers to donate their money to. Sadly that reflects more on society's values than particularly on horse racing. Then again I'm sure a percentage were appalled by the deaths of According To Pete and Synchronised, but how many of them quite happily tuck into their joint of lamb or beef the next day? Out of sight is out of mind.

The website you draw attention to is run by Animal Aid. This is an organisation whose basis is that there should be no animals in captivity for any reason and that all animals should be wild. For good or for bad thoroughbreds are principally bred to race and are amongst the most pampered tamed animals and the vast majority live a long and happy life. The breed would not last five minutes in the wild.

Rob

Ropemaker
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Apr 16, 2012, 5:42 PM

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Re: [Rob North] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or

In Reply To

Sadly I agree with you that there are too many who attend meetings who don't care though. I suspect that most of the 70,000 at Aintree on Saturday were happy as long as they have food to eat, alcohol to empty down themselves and bookmakers to donate their money to. Sadly that reflects more on society's values than particularly on horse racing. Then again I'm sure a percentage were appalled by the deaths of According To Pete and Synchronised, but how many of them quite happily tuck into their joint of lamb or beef the next day? Out of sight is out of mind.

The website you draw attention to is run by Animal Aid. This is an organisation whose basis is that there should be no animals in captivity for any reason and that all animals should be wild. For good or for bad thoroughbreds are principally bred to race and are amongst the most pampered tamed animals and the vast majority live a long and happy life. The breed would not last five minutes in the wild.

Rob

Do they have cow and sheep racing at Aintree now?

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

derekn
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Apr 16, 2012, 8:23 PM

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Re: [Ropemaker] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

A few things to say here. Firstly, racehorses are very well treated in 99.9% of cases. Second, most jump horses are geldings, so if they weren't racing, they'd be pet food. No one would spend money on looking after them and honestly they wouldn't be happy just standing in a field. Third, if you've ever tried to move a horse that doesn't want to, you'll know that if they don't want to move, they won't.

MistaFozzII
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Apr 16, 2012, 8:58 PM

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Re: [derekn] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Calling for a ban is wrong at the moment, people should look at making the race safer, lower fences w/level drops, shorter course and less participants, maybes trimmed to 20-25 horses, and have Grand National Qualifying events, say 5 qualifying races of ten horses each and the top 5 going onto the National from each qualifier, lets try and do more to improve the Grand National, and if it still does not work properly then look at scrapping it

In the case of Synchronised, Aintrees officials, vets, trainer and Tony McCoy have questions to answer as to why he still raced, Synchronised should not have got anywhere near the start line after he unseated McCoy.

While we are discussing this issues, what is peoples opinions on Cheltenham, I am sure, about 5 or 6 horses died there recently, how much was that reported on, next to nothing, and I dont hear calls for Cheltenhams festival to be banned.

Horses dying is unfortunate and in this day and age it should not bee happening, it is an occupational hazard and a risk, but we all take risks, I begrudginly accept the fact I may walk out the house and get knocked over and killed, it happens and that is life...

There is an element of danger attached to all sports, look at Fabrice Muamba and Piermario Morosini more recently, people have also died running marathons but we dont call that cruel and barbaric.

I enjoy watching the Grand National and want to continue to enjoy it and have enjoyed watching it since I was a child, although deaths of horses overshadows my enjoyment, I would prefer to see the format of the race changed before an outright ban

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UKPunk
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Apr 16, 2012, 9:19 PM

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Re: [derekn] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

A few things to say here. Firstly, racehorses are very well treated in 99.9% of cases. Second, most jump horses are geldings, so if they weren't racing, they'd be pet food. No one would spend money on looking after them and honestly they wouldn't be happy just standing in a field. Third, if you've ever tried to move a horse that doesn't want to, you'll know that if they don't want to move, they won't.

In France they'd be on the menu at your local restaurant. Tongue

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garethwrexy
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Apr 16, 2012, 9:23 PM

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Re: [MistaFozzII] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

its only the animal rights people that wan the race banned.

wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !

sewnapart
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Apr 16, 2012, 11:16 PM

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Far and away the biggest problem is, ironically the making the fences smaller... what its resulted in is jockeys charging into them at 100mph not giving them anywhere near enough respect as that becomes the pace required to win the race. As has been said before, the increase in deaths has coincided with the 'safety advancements' (although it has to be said in the two other races over national fences last week there were no problems whatsoever). Also having been to the Pardubice in the Czech Republic (as well as the national) - some of the fences there are far more daunting....

One possible option would be to run it in either November/February when the ground would likely be softer, although the ground wasn't especially on the fast side on Saturday - and as has been said before, According to Pete took a glancing blow from a passing horse while getting up having been brought down, and Synchronised's death wasn't directly attributable to his fall either, but rather as he continued round...

I do think that many of the reactions suggesting banning it are more than a little rash however, I can think of far crueller issues (even with horses) to get het up over - horses left in fields on hot days covered in rugs, often without sufficient food to survive by owners who blatantly don't care (and after all it is in the interests of a trainer for a horse to be healthy)... and that is not to mention other issues of animal cruelty that I would say surely form a more worthwhile cause. Dogs bought as trophy weapons maybe? Or the meat industry and standards in abbatoirs to name but a few.

Feversham Lens
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Apr 17, 2012, 9:41 AM

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Re: [garethwrexy] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

its only the animal rights people that wan the race banned.

Where did you get those blinkers? A racehorse, perhaps...

There's as much pride in this club as there is at Anfield - just fewer people showing it.
If you don't like it, don't ****ing come.

Isaac
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Apr 17, 2012, 12:36 PM

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Re: [Feversham Lens] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

its only the animal rights people that wan the race banned.

Where did you get those blinkers? A racehorse, perhaps...

I would hope anybody with an ounce of decency would want it banned or at least changes made to make it safer?

There are others on here who clearly have far more knowledge on horse issues than me an their constructive input is welcome.

(This post was edited by Isaac on Apr 17, 2012, 12:38 PM)

Rob North
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Apr 17, 2012, 7:48 PM

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Location: Dunfermline
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Re: [Ropemaker] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Do they have cow and sheep racing at Aintree now?

No, but then again I don't remember seeing any horse meat when I was shopping last weekend, for what that's worth. I suspect many apply double standards to the two matters as 'out of sight is out of mind.'

Horse racing does not set out to kill horses. Regrettably accidents happen but on the whole thoroughbreds are a well looked after breed who have good lives. If you read my posts you will see that I have made positive suggestions for improving safety, and as a minimum I believe that's the way the sport should go, the difference being I've been aware of the need for safety without needing the kneejerk reaction from a major event.

Rob

(This post was edited by Rob North on Apr 17, 2012, 7:53 PM)

Ropemaker
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Apr 18, 2012, 5:16 PM

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Location: Surrey
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Re: [Rob North] grand national 2012 [In reply to]	Can't Post or

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Do they have cow and sheep racing at Aintree now?

I have read the posts in this debate.

If safety is improved, does it matter if it's on the recommendation of a carnivore or a vegetarian?

Just can't see the relevance, that's all.

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

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