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Rico
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Mar 27, 2012, 10:39 AM

Posts: 310
Location: Cheltenham
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west midlands regional Can't Post or Reply Privately

Having just looked at the west mids regional league table, there are 2 sides well adrift, what are the chances of them going down?

It may sound a stupid question but I'm not familiar with any of the clubs in the division below and whether they meet any grading requirements there may be.


A.G.Ricer
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Mar 27, 2012, 1:26 PM

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Re: [Rico] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Of the current top four , two, I believe, would meet the ground grading requirements - Afc Wombourne Utd and Stone OA. I know Wellington Amateurs do not have floodlights and I suspect Hanwood do not either but am open to correction on this.
Bromyard have flirted with relegation for several seasons now so this could be the year it happens.


Andy D
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Mar 27, 2012, 1:31 PM

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Re: [Rico] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is written into the West Midlands League constitution that any club not meeting grading criteria will immediately be allowed to groundshare Wink.



Rules of Groundhopping:

Rule 1 - There are no rules
Rule 2 - See rule 1.....


colin
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Mar 27, 2012, 5:40 PM

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Re: [Andy D] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It is written into the West Midlands League constitution that any club not meeting grading criteria will immediately be allowed to groundshare Wink.



No it's not, the extract below is taken form the WMRL online handbook.

2.3 A Club may share its ground (subject to the provisions of Rule 4.12) with another club (including a club engaged in another sport) providing, in the case of any football club, the club playing in the most senior competition has priority of fixtures and, in the case of any other club, providing the Club has priority of fixtures. Ground sharing is permitted but not in order to gain promotion or to avoid relegation. In the case of dispute the Company shall have the power to accept an alternative agreement on priority.

Looks like Wellington Ams won't be going up again, for a 4th consecutive season they are finishing in a promotion spot (3 times champs). Maybe if this club started to put more money into ground improvements rather than paying their players obscene amounts of money then they would be in a position to go up. It's about time the league did something about them and threw them out of their league as they are stopping other clubs from progressing.



blackdouglas
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Mar 27, 2012, 5:46 PM

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Re: [Andy D] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Looks like Colin doesn't get the idea of the Wink

LaughLaughLaughLaugh



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Watford, Rochdale, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr), queen of the south and a few others.

Pyramid Allocations for the 2013/14 season as published by the FA on May 17th http://bit.ly/18QoFvt
How I would've allocated the clubs for 2013/14 http://bit.ly/OS8GoJ


VP
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Mar 27, 2012, 7:43 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Looks like Wellington Ams won't be going up again, for a 4th consecutive season they are finishing in a promotion spot (3 times champs). Maybe if this club started to put more money into ground improvements rather than paying their players obscene amounts of money then they would be in a position to go up. It's about time the league did something about them and threw them out of their league as they are stopping other clubs from progressing.


There's nothing the league can do as paying players isn't against the rules. I don't know what you consider to be obscene amounts of money but if they've got it then it's down to them how they spend it (although calling themselves 'Amateurs' whilst paying money is a bit rich if it's true).
It seems strange to me why any club throws money at a team if they don't want promotion and are happy at the level they're playing at though.
I assume their ground grading is good enough for the level they're at in which case it's something the other clubs will have to accept.


blackdouglas
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Mar 27, 2012, 8:52 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


Quote
Looks like Wellington Ams won't be going up again, for a 4th consecutive season they are finishing in a promotion spot (3 times champs). Maybe if this club started to put more money into ground improvements rather than paying their players obscene amounts of money then they would be in a position to go up. It's about time the league did something about them and threw them out of their league as they are stopping other clubs from progressing.


Having had a look at the ground in Google Earth, Google Maps and FlashEarth.com (with Google being the more up to date coverage) I'm not sure what more they could do to their ground, it appears to be very "hemmed in". GM indicates Sheltered Housing to the west, a road to the north, a primary school & private housing to the east and workshops on the south side of the ground. There appears to be hard standing along two sides of the pitch (east & south), the pitch does appear to be fenced off (I think there are fencepost shadows visible) but apart from some bare minimal parking space by the ground's entrance, the ground perimeter seems very tight on all the three other sides. As trees & hedges don't count towards perimeter fencing I assume the amount of shrubbery that may need to be removed to enclose the ground makes it a "conservational no no". I also presume the proximity of the Sheltered Housing is a significant bar to floodlighting. I wouldn't think it mattered what other facilities they provide on matchday, the lack of ground enclosure and floodlighting is a serious bar to a Step 6 grading. Without ground-sharing, or provision of a site where the club can develop the required facilities Wellington Amateurs will only ever be a Step 7 club.

See it's not always what you can afford to do, sometimes its also what you're allowed to do.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Watford, Rochdale, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr), queen of the south and a few others.

Pyramid Allocations for the 2013/14 season as published by the FA on May 17th http://bit.ly/18QoFvt
How I would've allocated the clubs for 2013/14 http://bit.ly/OS8GoJ


Sarumio
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Mar 27, 2012, 9:02 PM

Posts: 3403
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Re: [blackdouglas] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Quote
Looks like Wellington Ams won't be going up again, for a 4th consecutive season they are finishing in a promotion spot (3 times champs). Maybe if this club started to put more money into ground improvements rather than paying their players obscene amounts of money then they would be in a position to go up. It's about time the league did something about them and threw them out of their league as they are stopping other clubs from progressing.


Having had a look at the ground in Google Earth, Google Maps and FlashEarth.com (with Google being the more up to date coverage) I'm not sure what more they could do to their ground, it appears to be very "hemmed in". GM indicates Sheltered Housing to the west, a road to the north, a primary school & private housing to the east and workshops on the south side of the ground. There appears to be hard standing along two sides of the pitch (east & south), the pitch does appear to be fenced off (I think there are fencepost shadows visible) but apart from some bare minimal parking space by the ground's entrance, the ground perimeter seems very tight on all the three other sides. As trees & hedges don't count towards perimeter fencing I assume the amount of shrubbery that may need to be removed to enclose the ground makes it a "conservational no no". I also presume the proximity of the Sheltered Housing is a significant bar to floodlighting. I wouldn't think it mattered what other facilities they provide on matchday, the lack of ground enclosure and floodlighting is a serious bar to a Step 6 grading. Without ground-sharing, or provision of a site where the club can develop the required facilities Wellington Amateurs will only ever be a Step 7 club.

See it's not always what you can afford to do, sometimes its also what you're allowed to do.



In which case the league should step in and state that 2 (or 3) clubs in the top...say 5...positions will be allowed promotion with the correct grading to stop clubs like Wellington Amateurs 'blocking' the progression of others in their league.

IIRC - the season before last - no one went up to the Premier and no one was relegated from it either - becuse of the D1 clubs not having the ground grading. The same could happen again at the end of this season if the WMRL commitee don't buck their ideas up and change the promotion rules.


der kaiser
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Mar 27, 2012, 9:10 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I take it Colin, you haven't been to The Wickes Stadium for a while. There have been massive improvements to the ground and they will continue.

New Changing Rooms, Perimeter fencing a clubhouse and the support pads have been installed at the ground.

We are waiting for a funding decision for the money on floodlights. I know that everybody within the club are working hard to not only keep things running smoothly but also develop the junior section.

We are not one of these clubs that forms and jumps straight into step 7 whilst using a ground share and don't develop a club or give back to the community.

I seem to remember somebody with a same name who used to post on Shrop Footy under the same name. He was forever having a go at the Amateurs for this that and the other. He left when people started to have a go back at him about his negative comments. He was one of these people who ran a sunday league side for a couple of seasons and it inflated his ego.

Mods note - please take comments on this forum as that. Do not criticise them for something the same person may or may not have written elsewhere. Refer to the poster by the name posted and accept that name. There is nothing wrong with using the name Colin (unless, perhaps you are really Neil Warnock)


(This post was edited by leohoenig on Mar 28, 2012, 9:27 AM)


colin
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Mar 28, 2012, 6:30 PM

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Re: [der kaiser] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I take it Colin, you haven't been to The Wickes Stadium for a while. There have been massive improvements to the ground and they will continue.

New Changing Rooms, Perimeter fencing a clubhouse and the support pads have been installed at the ground.

We are waiting for a funding decision for the money on floodlights. I know that everybody within the club are working hard to not only keep things running smoothly but also develop the junior section.

We are not one of these clubs that forms and jumps straight into step 7 whilst using a ground share and don't develop a club or give back to the community.

I seem to remember somebody with a same name who used to post on Shrop Footy under the same name. He was forever having a go at the Amateurs for this that and the other. He left when people started to have a go back at him about his negative comments. He was one of these people who ran a sunday league side for a couple of seasons and it inflated his ego.

Mods note - please take comments on this forum as that. Do not criticise them for something the same person may or may not have written elsewhere. Refer to the poster by the name posted and accept that name. There is nothing wrong with using the name Colin (unless, perhaps you are really Neil Warnock)



Der Kaiser, i take it that you are involved with the club since you seem to be referring to them as 'we'. You've also lost me with your ramblings about shrop footy???? running a team?????
You also seemed to have swerved the question on players being paid, so i presume that this is still true, well at least it was 3 seasons ago on my last visit to the ground. Like VP says it's a bit rich to use the name 'amateurs' and pay the players, especially at a level such as Step 7. My point is that if these players were not paid this obscene amount of money then cash would be saved and put aside for ground improvements rather than rely on extra funding. It's not a dig at Wellington as there are many clubs around the country that do the same, its just that in my opinion it's wrong.


leominsterblue
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Mar 29, 2012, 3:56 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

On a slightly different angle, today's Hereford Times reports that Herefordshire Premier League side Bartestree have applied to join the West Midlands League next season.I drove past their pitch recently and noticed they'd had some new wooden dugouts built.


M5 traveller
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Jun 24, 2012, 3:19 PM

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Re: [leominsterblue] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?


colin
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Jun 24, 2012, 5:25 PM

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Re: [M5 traveller] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?



That seems starnge as i'm pretty certain that Wellington Ams didn't have their lights installed by the end of March which is the deadline.


M5 traveller
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Jun 24, 2012, 6:22 PM

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Post #14 of 132 (9969 views)
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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?



That seems starnge as i'm pretty certain that Wellington Ams didn't have their lights installed by the end of March which is the deadline.

Not sure details but at end April special meeting, all clubs were told by the league Chief Exec that they needed to have proof that contracts had been signed for lights and they would be operational for early next season.


(This post was edited by M5 traveller on Jun 24, 2012, 6:27 PM)


colin
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Jun 25, 2012, 4:57 PM

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Re: [M5 traveller] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?



That seems starnge as i'm pretty certain that Wellington Ams didn't have their lights installed by the end of March which is the deadline.

Not sure details but at end April special meeting, all clubs were told by the league Chief Exec that they needed to have proof that contracts had been signed for lights and they would be operational for early next season.



Still it seems one rule for one and one for another. Ground Grading documents from the FA clearly state the deadline is the end of March, why are the West Midlands League making their own rules?


oftenscore6
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Jun 25, 2012, 5:31 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?



That seems starnge as i'm pretty certain that Wellington Ams didn't have their lights installed by the end of March which is the deadline.

Not sure details but at end April special meeting, all clubs were told by the league Chief Exec that they needed to have proof that contracts had been signed for lights and they would be operational for early next season.



Still it seems one rule for one and one for another. Ground Grading documents from the FA clearly state the deadline is the end of March, why are the West Midlands League making their own rules?


The deadline is the end of March in the season after promotion. Technically you only need the grade for the level you're in, except for step 5 to step 4 (where a grade E is required rather than the F for step 5), a few qualifications between step 2 & 1, and promotion into the Football League. However, it would be rather silly, both for the club and the league if a potential promotee does not have a pretty strong likelihood of obtaining the grade, particularly with floodlights, both on a planning permission and funding basis. So reasonable for the league to insist that some guarantees are in place that the work will be done, if promotion is approved.



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (442) Mommsenstadion Tennis Borussia Berlin 1-2 SFC Stern (1/6)
With FC United: 84 - and looking forward to one in Moston in 2014-5 (touchwood)!
On the agenda:
Saddleworth Rangers v Stanley (15/6, rugby league)
Castleford Panthers v Shaw Cross Sharks (19/6, rugby league)


Rico
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Jun 25, 2012, 7:32 PM

Posts: 310
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Team(s): Oxford utd, Tuffley Rovers

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Re: [oftenscore6] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can they really relegate Bromyard who didn't get to play their final game and were awarded the points which removed any possibility they had of finishing 3rd bottom on goal difference.......

I understand the turnaround was unlikely but you can't relegate someone on something that probably won't happen.....


der kaiser
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Jun 25, 2012, 8:17 PM

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Re: [Rico] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I hear that Bromyard have not been relegated.


colin
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Jun 25, 2012, 8:32 PM

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Re: [oftenscore6] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Heard from a source close to the committee that at tomorrows AGM, Wellington Amateurs (apparently lights are sorted) and AFC Wombourne (share with AFC Wulfs) are being recommended for promotion to the Premier, Willenhall will be replacing Gornal and Stafford swapping with Bartley Green from Mid Comb.

If above true, then I assume Darlaston and Bromyard will be getting relegated?



That seems starnge as i'm pretty certain that Wellington Ams didn't have their lights installed by the end of March which is the deadline.

Not sure details but at end April special meeting, all clubs were told by the league Chief Exec that they needed to have proof that contracts had been signed for lights and they would be operational for early next season.



Still it seems one rule for one and one for another. Ground Grading documents from the FA clearly state the deadline is the end of March, why are the West Midlands League making their own rules?


The deadline is the end of March in the season after promotion. Technically you only need the grade for the level you're in, except for step 5 to step 4 (where a grade E is required rather than the F for step 5), a few qualifications between step 2 & 1, and promotion into the Football League. However, it would be rather silly, both for the club and the league if a potential promotee does not have a pretty strong likelihood of obtaining the grade, particularly with floodlights, both on a planning permission and funding basis. So reasonable for the league to insist that some guarantees are in place that the work will be done, if promotion is approved.



Yes i understand all that, however i understand that Wellington Amateurs still don't have floodlights installed, despite the deadline being nearly 3 months ago. Why set these rules and then not adhere to them? I also notice according to their website they have arranged a couple of pre-season friendlies with 7pm kick offs, therefore i would assume lights still not ready? It also sets a dangerous precedent as other clubs who have the correct facilities are being stopped from promotion.


leominster
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:27 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Proposed line up for next season as presented at tonight's AGM :

Premier Division (22 teams)

AFC Wulfrunians
Bartley Green (transferred from Midland Combination with Stafford Town going the other way)
Bewdley Town
Black Country Rangers
Bromyard Town
Bustleholme
Cradley Town
Darlaston Town
Dudley Sports
Dudley Town
Lye Town
Malvern Town
Pegasus Juniors
Shawbury United
Shifnal Town
Sporting Khalsa
Wolverhampton Casuals
Wolverhampton Sporting
Wednesfield
Wellington
Wellington Amateurs (accepted as the League has written confirmation from contractors that floodlights will be installed and operational by 1st September)
Willenhall

Division 1 (18 teams)

AFC Smethwick
AFC Wombourne United
Bilston Town (2007)
Blackheath Town
Bridgnorth Town Reserves
Hanwood United
Haughmond
Leominster Town
Mahal
Penncroft
St. Martins
Shenstone Pathfinder
Stone Old Alleynians
Trysull
Wolverhampton United
Warstones Wanderers
Wem Town
Wyrley

Division 2 (18 teams - new additions in bold)

Bartestree
Ettingshall Park Farm
Gornal Athletic Reserves
Hereford Lads Club
Ledbury Town
Mahal Reserves
Malvern Rangers
Malvern Town reserves
Newport Town
Penkridge Town
Punjab United
Red Star Alma
Riverway
Sikh Hunters
Team Dudley
Tenbury United
Wolverhampton Sporting Reserves
Wrens Nest

A few points to note :

Lots of these teams will be groundsharing.Unfortunately the list I have doesn't have details of the groundshares on as it's a handwritten copy of an original.

The Premier Division constitution was accepted.However, Penkridge raised an objection that teams who finished below them had been promoted ahead of them and the first they found out about it was at this meeting.The thinking behind this was to move teams from near the top of Division 2 into Division 1 to create space for the 7 new applicants and to give equal numbers in Divs 1 and 2.There was a long and involved discussion which basically meant a decision was deferred on which division Penkridge will be in next season.The League will be discussing matters further with Penkridge but it seems that Penkridge probably don't meet the ground grading criteria for promotion whereas the other promoted teams do.

Of the 18 teams in division 1 only 3 (Hanwood, Shenstone & Wolverhampton Utd) do not have lights.There was a clear steer that with larger divisions 1 and 2 next season those who do have lights will probably play more midweek matches.

Malvern Rangers will be playing at 'an acadamy' - presumably Malvern College - but there are no floodlights.

Punjab United will be playing at 'an academy' in Pendeford - presumably the Business and Enterprise College.

The season will start on August 4th with a finish date of 27th April but with the possibility of extending this for a fortnight 'in exceptional circumstances'.


colin
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:42 PM

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Re: [leominster] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So the floodlights at Wellington Amateurs won't be installed for the start of the new season? Why have they got special permission, when others have failed in bids for promotion in the past due to not reaching the deadline. September 1st is 5 months past the deadline, so i don't really understand. Seems like 1 rule for Wellington Amateurs and another for Penkridge Town, although i would have thought that Penkridge's ground is suitable for Step 7 especially since the ground gradings for that level have been relaxed.


M5 traveller
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:45 PM

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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm confused - 1 person is saying that the deadline is March after promotion (i.e. March 2013). Colin says he knows but is then talking about March 2012?? Any idea which one it is?


M5 traveller
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:47 PM

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In Reply To
Proposed line up for next season as presented at tonight's AGM :

Premier Division (22 teams)

AFC Wulfrunians
Bartley Green (transferred from Midland Combination with Stafford Town going the other way)
Bewdley Town
Black Country Rangers
Bromyard Town
Bustleholme
Cradley Town
Darlaston Town
Dudley Sports
Dudley Town
Lye Town
Malvern Town
Pegasus Juniors
Shawbury United
Shifnal Town
Sporting Khalsa
Wolverhampton Casuals
Wolverhampton Sporting
Wednesfield
Wellington
Wellington Amateurs (accepted as the League has written confirmation from contractors that floodlights will be installed and operational by 1st September)
Willenhall

Division 1 (18 teams)

AFC Smethwick
AFC Wombourne United
Bilston Town (2007)
Blackheath Town
Bridgnorth Town Reserves
Hanwood United
Haughmond
Leominster Town
Mahal
Penncroft
St. Martins
Shenstone Pathfinder
Stone Old Alleynians
Trysull
Wolverhampton United
Warstones Wanderers
Wem Town
Wyrley

Division 2 (18 teams - new additions in bold)

Bartestree
Ettingshall Park Farm
Gornal Athletic Reserves
Hereford Lads Club
Ledbury Town
Mahal Reserves
Malvern Rangers
Malvern Town reserves
Newport Town
Penkridge Town
Punjab United
Red Star Alma
Riverway
Sikh Hunters
Team Dudley
Tenbury United
Wolverhampton Sporting Reserves
Wrens Nest

A few points to note :

Lots of these teams will be groundsharing.Unfortunately the list I have doesn't have details of the groundshares on as it's a handwritten copy of an original.

The Premier Division constitution was accepted.However, Penkridge raised an objection that teams who finished below them had been promoted ahead of them and the first they found out about it was at this meeting.The thinking behind this was to move teams from near the top of Division 2 into Division 1 to create space for the 7 new applicants and to give equal numbers in Divs 1 and 2.There was a long and involved discussion which basically meant a decision was deferred on which division Penkridge will be in next season.The League will be discussing matters further with Penkridge but it seems that Penkridge probably don't meet the ground grading criteria for promotion whereas the other promoted teams do.

Of the 18 teams in division 1 only 3 (Hanwood, Shenstone & Wolverhampton Utd) do not have lights.There was a clear steer that with larger divisions 1 and 2 next season those who do have lights will probably play more midweek matches.

Malvern Rangers will be playing at 'an acadamy' - presumably Malvern College - but there are no floodlights.

Punjab United will be playing at 'an academy' in Pendeford - presumably the Business and Enterprise College.

The season will start on August 4th with a finish date of 27th April but with the possibility of extending this for a fortnight 'in exceptional circumstances'.



Thanks for the info - very useful. Good to see the league as a whole up on numbers.


colin
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:50 PM

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Re: [M5 traveller] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The March of promotion is the deadline, so in this case it would have been March 2012.


M5 traveller
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Jun 25, 2012, 11:56 PM

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Post #25 of 132 (9456 views)
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Re: [colin] west midlands regional [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The March of promotion is the deadline, so in this case it would have been March 2012.


Thanks, heard so many different stories.

Not sure differences with Penkridge, only thing I can think off is distance to changing rooms?

Think it is the sensible decision with Wellington. As mentioned earlier by yourself, it wasn't helping the league having them staying in Division 1 each year. If they hadn't gone up then it would have been another year where no team would have been promoted.

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