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What if points won are not equal.

Mister TwoU
First Team Regular

Dec 1, 2011, 9:07 PM

Posts: 1246
Location: Bo'ness
Team(s): Cowdenbeath

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What if points won are not equal.	Can't Post or

DISCLAIMER: This and subsequent postings here will be checked in Word before placement. Any comments or queries arising thereafter should be addressed to Microsoft Corp.! Tongue

So, what if points won are not equal. Because they're not really, are they?

A home victory versus Wigan Athletic cannot be 'worth' exactly the same as an away win at Old Trafford, if you see where I'm going with this?

It was Palace's win in the League Cup, set me thinking.

I don't intend to suggest completely altering the way league standings get presented, 'coz they aren't going to change, but as a simple thought experiment, how could one more accurately reflect each team's seasonal prowess, allowing for those 'more valuable' points won under greater pressure?

I'm intrigued how one might set about the idea.

Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.

Dr Love
First Team Star

Dec 1, 2011, 10:15 PM

Posts: 1741
Location: Berks.
Team(s): Halifax Town

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Re: [Mister TwoU] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Presumably the same sort of method they use in chess tournaments to work out performance ratings for the competition. It would require the introduction of an Elo rating for the clubs though.

Mr Peru
Junior Team Star

Dec 2, 2011, 8:35 PM

Posts: 103
Location: Isleworth
Team(s): Wealdstone

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Re: [Mister TwoU] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I know the Conference (the then Gola League) flirted with this idea in the 80's, when an away win gave you 3 points but a home win was only worth 2. From memory I think Nuneaton would have been champions rather than Wealdstone in 84-5 if the traditional 3 pts for a win was being used.

FarehamSeagull
Junior Team Regular

Dec 2, 2011, 9:50 PM

Posts: 53
Location: Fareham
Team(s): Brighton & Hove Albion

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Re: [Mister TwoU] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Surely as Palace won after extra time, it would only count as a draw after the regulation 90 minutes?

forestman
Youth Team Star

Dec 3, 2011, 8:44 AM

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Re: [FarehamSeagull] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I remember quite a few years ago Leyton-Wingate playing in a floodlight comp where a home win was 3 pointss and away win 4 points with a bonus point if you scored 4 goals

chienmort
Reserve Team Regular

Dec 4, 2011, 9:32 AM

Posts: 672
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

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Re: [forestman] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem here is that you start to put complexities in that the average fan does not care about.

Th current system seems to work well and adding anything too complicated will spoil things.

The older ones among us will remember the old Goal Average concept that meant a team could be promoted or relegated by 0.001 of a goal? Most can understand Goal Difference.

Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien

Mister TwoU
First Team Regular

Dec 4, 2011, 10:39 AM

Posts: 1246
Location: Bo'ness
Team(s): Cowdenbeath

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Re: [chienmort] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or

In Reply To

Do remember this isn't a 'lets change stuff' discussion.

It's more an 'interesting tangent' type of thread.

My take is that it could primarily be based upon each team's current win-loss ratios at each given event and the value of points given for the individual match would then be modified by a goal-difference factor, that derived only from the game in hand.

I'm guessing this would work out very much like the 'chess' rating systems noted above.

My interest in this, by-the-by, is to develop a gambling system that will make matches easier to predict! lol

Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.

StokePriorAndy
First Team Star

Dec 4, 2011, 11:05 PM

Posts: 2105
Location: Blackwell Bromsgrove
Team(s): Bromsgrove Sporting, Bromsgrove Rovers, Tottenham H, Gainsborough Trinity

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Re: [Mister TwoU] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

And there's the rub. It is logical to malke all wins equal because if wins aren't equal then surely defeats aren't either. So to end up level on points with another team after say winning at Old Trafford the counter argument might say you should get less than "null points" for losing at home to the bottom club. And then it gets complicated!!

cope1
Chelsea Transfer Target

Dec 5, 2011, 4:44 PM

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Re: [StokePriorAndy] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

This is something I have investigated in my bid to improve the 'AFA Index' which is a ranking system I compile (only ever seen by me, sadly). Using the last 3 seasons' results in AFA cups I calculate a weighting for each division (similar to UEFA co-efficients). Then, league points are multiplied by the relevant weighting and wins in cup ties are also weighted likewise. So, the weighting for SAL Senior Division 1 is 0.82. All games within that division are weighted thus, while any team winning against an SAL Senior 1 team in a cup will have their win weighted the same.

However, while this works fine for measuring league results (so comparing teams in the SAL with teams in the AFC) it can be skewed in cup ties because a defeat is worth 0 no matter who it is against. Nottsborough lost to Old Ignatians on Saturday. OIFC are in the second tier of the AFC, which has a significantly lower weighting than SAL Senior 1 in which Notts play but they get the same score as if they'd lost to Winchmore Hill, one of the (other) strongest teams in the AFA.

What I came up with was deciding that the pts awarded for a win should be multiplied by the weighting (so a win in SAL Senior 1 would be 2.42 points) and a draw would always be 2 points less and a win 1 less than that. That way, a defeat in SAL Senior 1 would be -0.58 points while Nottsborough's result on Saturday would have got them (assuming AFC Senior 1 is worth 0.69 - I can't actually remember) would be worth -0.93.

I have yet to calculate the Index using this latest system though.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

London Harrier
First Team Star

Dec 6, 2011, 1:34 PM

Posts: 1816
Location: North London
Team(s): Kidderminster Harriers, Wingate & Finchley

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Re: [Mr Peru] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Correct. Nuneaton would have won by 1 point.

http://www.nonleaguefooty.co.uk/archive/alliance85.html

They also would have won the 1983-84 campaign too!

http://www.nonleaguefooty.co.uk/archive/alliance84.html

Vote for your favourite football grounds at 100 British Grounds To Visit Before You Die

(This post was edited by London Harrier on Dec 6, 2011, 1:36 PM)

Dr Love
First Team Star

Dec 6, 2011, 5:22 PM

Posts: 1741
Location: Berks.
Team(s): Halifax Town

Post #11 of 12 (2219 views)
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Re: [London Harrier] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Correct. Nuneaton would have won by 1 point.

Just to correct your correction, they would have finished 1 point above Wealdstone. However, they would still be in second place. Bath City would have been champions a further point ahead.

Of course these arguements are assuming they didn't have a game they took a little easier at the end of the season when there wasn't much to play for.

chienmort
Reserve Team Regular

Dec 7, 2011, 8:49 PM

Posts: 672
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

Post #12 of 12 (2153 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] What if points won are not equal. [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

You are right of course that the points are not equal as the ones against MU away would be discounted before the season starts. So they are MORE valuable without ant need to fiddle the system.

Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien

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